oshron

DPFAR (double post for a reason): i sorted out the new Harappan Hindu pantheon! here's what i have for our Indus Valley representatives: MAJOR GODS Brahma (god of creation) Devi (female aspect of the divine) Indra (god of war, storms, and rainfall; GP: Rain) my original setup with the hindu pantheon had brahma, devi, and shiva as major gods, the justification for shive being the "evil" god because he is the destroyer. all of teh Trimurti (basically the Trinity of Hinduism) are present, though vishnu and shiva are minor gods as opposed to brahma being a major god. devi is present asthe neutral god because devi herself she all of the universe and doesnt really interfere with anything. four of her avatars are present, though, all as minor gods. technically, indra shouldnt be the "evil" god (i guess) because he's actually the king of teh hindu gods. but my research showed that he is also the god of war and is known to send down punishing rain. for the same reason mars is the "evil" roman god, indra is the "evil" one here. oh, and there's no punishing rain that he uses here: the Rain godpower is boosted right out of AOM--where it is the godpower of Ra--and has the same effects: it just speeds up the rate at which food is gathered. MINOR GODS TOWN PHASE -- Agni (god of fire; his myth unit is the Gold-digging Ant) -- Kali (goddess of eternal energy; her myth units are the Red Dog (dhole)* and Nivatakavacha, a type of ocean-dwelling asura that serves as a naval myth unit) -- Hanuman (general of teh vanaras, which are basically ape-men; his myth unit is the Bandar-log, a mischievous monkey) *if youre at all familiar with The Jungle Book in its original telling, you'll notice that some of the hindu myth units are based on it. i know its kind of cheating, but i thought it would be fitting to pay tribute to rudyard kipling, the original author, and because there arent that many other indian and hindu creatures that can serve as myth units; i was just barely able to fill in the rest. but dont worry, the vast majority of the hindu myth units are all authentic CITY PHASE -- Rama (king of Ayodhya and a popular entity in hindu tradition; his myth units are Sahi, a gigantic porcupine, and Garuda, a bird-man or possibly a giant eagle because garuda is the hindu equivalent of the greek aquila) -- Parvati (goddess of mothers; her myth units are the Gandharva, basically a hindu centaur, and the Ganaberunda, a two-headed bird that is common in temple motifs) -- Varuna (god of law, the underworld, and the ocean; his myth units are the Makara, which is something like a terrestrial dolphin or possibly an ambulocetus-like whale, and teh Rainbow Fish, a fish the size of a whale) EMPIRE PHASE -- Sarasvati (goddess of knowledge and the arts; her myth unit is the Rock Python, a living siege unit that doubles as a scout, capable of entering a trance while idle and expanding its light of sight much like the atlantean Oracle in AOM:The Titans) -- Krishna (god of protection; i know im not really doing krishna justice by having him as just an empire phase god and not a legend phase or major god, but i thought that the ones i already have as major gods and legend phase gods are actually more deserving of their positions than krishna. sorry, krishna anyway, his myth unit is Daitya, which was a type of giant asura that fought the devas (hindus gods) ) -- Vishnu (god of protection; again, not doing him adequate justice, but, really, in the eye of most of thee worlds people, Vishnu doesnt even come to mind when you think hinduism; you automatically think Shiva or Ganesha instead. *ahem* continuing, vishnu's myth unit is the Rakshasa, a shapeshifting demon) LEGEND PHASE -- Shiva (god of destruction; his myth unit is the Naga, a gigantic cobra-like dragon) -- Ganesha (god of science and teh arts; his myth unit is Airavata, which is the white elephant that Indra is depicted riding. seeing how ganesha has the head of an elephant, i thought it was only fitting that he have an elephant as his myth unit. airaventa would act as a living siege unit, probably. ganesha is also the only hindu minor god available to all three major gods, because his worship is so popular and so widespread) -- Durga (goddess of supreme radiance and arguably the most powerful of devi's avatars. durga grants the Dawon myth unit, an enormous tiger goddess that durga traditionally rides into battle. durga is only available to devi)

i dont think theres any difference between saltwater, freshwater, and currents in games like this, programming wise. for simplicity's sake, it would just be any water, but maybe it could be that they can only be built on certain terrain connected to water, like they cant be built on ice or rock or things like that i was thinking that they would just be visibly different and not really HAVE a player color. basically, the units that the carthaginians have in 0ad would be the mercenaries, and would be labeled things like "Nubian Mercenary" or "Celtic Mercenary" and so on if its not the muslim faction, then some other faction will get a fervor/fanaticism power. as with the slavery power, this one is also based on empire earth yeah, i know that much in the little research ive done thus far. as i understand it, he basically has no power other than being able to suggest that people do bad things, so i labeled him as "entity of evil suggestion". that being teh case, i think i'll purposely make him "weaker" than other major gods. thats actually one of the reasons i wanted to give him Fervor, so that he has one really useful aspect but is otherwise undesirable if i can find information on islamic angels, you can bet ill be including them. thus far, im leaning towards having prophets listed in the koran appearing. for instance, the neutral major god for the soninke is muhammad. if that ends up being very controversial, ill take him out, but he seems to be too important to leave out. no actual imagery of him, though. it would probably be something like this instead. i think ill be focusing mostly on the mali empire, which was islamic, but maybe some earlier ghana religious entities could appear as very early minor gods leading up to islamic prophets, angels, and demons and the real reason that the muslim and christian major gods are essentially the same entities is because...well...they pretty much ARE the same entities. what most people dont realize is that the Christian God and the Islamic Allah are not seperate entities. "god" is simply the english word for "allah", and "allah" is just the arabic word for "god". the major difference between the major gods is the fact that their neutral gods are different, but fitting: the christians have jesus, and the muslims have muhammad. simple.

i came up with some more bonuses for major gods: Chinampa (Aztecs: Chalchiuhtlicue): this bonus allows you to build special Chinampa buildings. these are exactly the same as farms except that they can be built on water as long as they are also touching land. this is an actual historical element employed by the aztecs, who had their capitol on an island in the middle of a lake. it fits with Chalchiuhtlicue, who is the goddess of various kinds of water (i decided to just label her as "goddess of water" because she is the goddess of lakes, rivers, streams, horizontal water...there was a bit too much of that so i simplified things) Mercenaries (Semites: Tanit): i realized that, though the carthaginians are represented in the semitic faction, their actual military is lacking. the carthaginian army was mostly composed of mercenaries, so i decided to give Tanit--who represents the phoenicians and carthaginians--the bonus "Mercenaries". anyone with a civic center under tanit can call upon the aid of mercenaries from other tribes and peoples that will help defend the town. for balance, it would probably cost 1000 of a certain resource to summon them, and after a while, the mercenaries would disappear. Fervor (Soninke: Iblis): i kinda cheated with the Soninke Muslim major gods; they are pretty much exactly the same as the christian ones. the evil god for them is also the devil, here under the name Iblis. anyway, the power of Fervor is activated from a temple or possibly from teh civic center and sends all of your soldiers into a fanatical frenzy, making them do more damage to soldiers from other civilizations. its kinda based on the whole jihad thing; i also have fervor as the bonus for another muslim faction in a different game

i think you may have misunderstood. i have "Slavery" set down as Set's BONUS, not his GODPOWER. a bonus is inherent, you dont really activate it (except in certain rare instances). Set players would just inherently have slavery active.

the whole slavery thing is actually borrowed from Empire Earth: The Art of Conquest. in that game, the special civilization power for the Assyrians was "Slavery" and for every few enemy units you killed, you would get a free citizen. my thought with slavery for this is to reimplement it so that you get a specific Slave unit instead of just a citizen. they would work the same as a typical economic units, maybe have a weak attack, and wouldnt count towards your population count. i guess if the Spartan god power is used on them, they can become Helots for historical accuracy yknow, maybe Slavery could be an egyptian bonus. maybe it could go for Set, since he's the "evil" egyptian god

ill try to look into the mali, ghana, and songhay. in fact, maybe just the mali empire would be good. ive done some research into them before, anyway(i plan for them to appear at least briefly in a book that im writing) and ive heard that they were pretty distinct from the better-known zulus, actually utilizing cavalry. the question would be if they have a distinct mythology and mythological units and techs that can be applied. this could actually give some trouble to the cro-magnons because it may be more fitting for the mali to have those african cryptids instead. ...waitaminute! wait a minute! i know! maybe the mali empire could be the muslim representative of the game! according to some quick research, their major religions were just ancestor worship and islam. i get what you mean here. but what's your opinion about the polynesian faction lumping the hawaiians, maori, and easter islanders together? i didnt really want to use "barbarian" either, but that was just an idea for a name before anything else for the faction is derived. i also came up with another idea earlier to further differentiate major gods within a faction from other ones. each faction as a whole would get a shared demigod/super unit (for the greeks, it would be the Argonaut) which first becomes available in the city phase. then, in the empire phase, a second super unit becomes available which is unique to each major god. ive currently only done thinking into the greeks, and i have to say that poseidon's would probably be Companion Cavalry/Hetairoi, since poseidon emphasizes cavalry. perhaps tjhe Scythian Archer that i mentioned long before could go over to hades because of their deadly capabilities. i would automatically think a spartan would make a great super unit for zeus, but i want to refrain from using a spartan because theres already the godpower "Spartan" as for other super units, scythed chariots, sharktooth clubbers (for the polynesians), shorn ones (for aztecs), eagle warriors, and some kind of scottish warrior (for beira of the celtic faction) come to mind. with the super units i already have down, ill be reassigning them to one major god in particular, like the lambton knight will be going over to brigantia EDIT: oh, another idea i had a long time ago was to make slavery in the game an option. during teh village phase only, you could research Slavery and from then on, there would be a 10% chance that a Slave unit would appear at your civic center every time you killed an enemy unit. alternatively, "Slavery" could be saved as a bonus for a particular major god, or there could be traits to certain units (like the aztecs) that allow them to take prisoners which could then be used for sacrifices. i know slavery is a very sensitive subject (for that very reason, im not including it for a more modern RTS), but it was widely practiced in the ancient world and would make a good bonus for a faction if nothing else can be devised

i came up with an idea for a new faction. basically its just a collective "eastern barbarian" faction that would encompass the mongols, the huns, and one other barbarian tribe from eastern or northern asia. it seems kind of unfair to pretty much ignore two of the most significant peoples in history, one of which came to control nearly all of the old world. ideas for names right now are "Barbarians", "Germanics", and "Mongoloids" alternatively, maybe they could be included in the slavic faction, and we try to work it out from there EDIT: i have another idea for a name: "Migratory Barbarians"

that passable forest that you posted mythos_ruler DOES look very much like a mediterranean environment

well im curious then: would bridges built over water be out of the question, then? and not just flat ground with terrain and buildings to make it LOOK like a bridge, an actual structure that can be built during the course of the game to connect two stretches of land

well in the original AOM campaign, there was one scenario (which took place in a dream) that started in one map, and then a trigger already in the game loaded a second map to finish the scenario. d'you think something like that could be implemented? like meeting certain requirements during a given scenario loads a different map, like if you reach the end of the first part and you have a certain number of units, you go on a different path than you would if you have less of those units

(shrug) whatever. i decided to put "Giant Ammonite" down as a myth unit for teh cro-magnons, anyway

maybe the cactus are for outright fiction scenarios and are editor only?

yes! thats EXACTLY what i was thinking of as "sparse forest"! its kind of like the forest level of COD3, it has alot of ambiance to it. if there were the effect of falling leaves, it would be PERFECT!

im familiar with RTS games, and if 0ad will generally be like that other RTSs like AOM and AOK, forests will be impassable for most units, no? the idea of "Sparse Forest" is just to have a forest brush tool exactly like any other but with a lower density of trees, like only a third or fourth as many as the regular

here's another idea for maps and editor tools: Sparse Forest. basically, a relatively thick forest that will restrict the movement of some of the larger units, but infantry and cavalry can move through it. i think this adds not only a really cool and good-looking set of terrain-something-or-other to the map but also an element of realism. we know that in real life, forests can be crossed relatively easily, but some are easier to navigate than others. regular forests would represent very thick forests that are the norm in RTS games while the Sparse Forest would represent...well, forests that arent as thick. now, this COULD be done by just individually placing the trees, but i think it would be better and easier to make a scenario editor brush tool that places the forests like that instead

well i think it was supposed to be like the creature that killed the trojan man--i forget his name--who tried to warn priam that the trojan horse was a trick yeah, i know about odobenocetops; i saw Chased by Sea Monsters, too its not necessarily marine mammals that im going for, ill probably try/need to include some mesozoic marine reptiles or more ancient creatures. oh! i know! Predator X! supposedly the largest pliosaur ever, it could probably make a decent late game myth unit. ive got a name and everything: Cronus Monster, in reference to kronosaurus

what i was planning for cro-magnon naval myth units are, again, prehistoric marine animals. if nothing else, they could have simple sharks, maybe a hammerhead (which, incidentally, has been around since before humans, iirc, like the pliocene). but some that i had in mind would probably be like some of the prehistoric creatures seen in the sega arcade game Ocean Hunter; in the second to last level, all of the enemies are prehistoric: mosasaurs, dunkleosteus, pterygotus, a basilosaurus miniboss, anomalocarids, and ammonites. speaking of which, there was actually an idea for a hittite myth unit on another board called "Predammonite" which is essentially just a kracken with an ammonite shell, maybe something could be made of that. ive actually already got a few naval myth units for teh cro-magnons down, so that already slims down the list a bit: Mbielu-mbielu-mbielu (an amphibious kentrosaur-type stegosaur, maybe it could have a similar effect to the lambton knight because of all its spikes) Mahamba (a giant crocodile, i figured this one could be classified as a relict deinosuchus, which was a giant crocodile from the cretaceous, or, to be more correct since its from africa, maybe sarcosuchus, or maybe just a plain old giant crocodile) Churubusco (this guy would fill the same role as the Egyptian War Turtle from AOM, having a sort of aquatic bucking attack and otherwise biting, since its a snapping turtle) Mokele-mbembe (fictionalized version of a stereotypical brontosaur, entirely aquatic for balance)

there will need to be some stretches, but i think im doing pretty good so far yeah, i was starting to have second thoughts about it, too. maybe Mapinguari would be a better choice (basically just a ground sloth, dont know what it'd do, though) yeah, im familiar with alot of those guys; im actually a prehistory buff, and thats one of the reasons i wanted to have cro-magnons in the first place i had thought of having a "Unicorn Rhino" type myth unit, but i decided i would just replace it with "war rhinoceros" which is just an armored rhinoceros. perhaps Elasmotherium could be represented as the christian myth unit "unicorn" (theres rumors that the animal has existed for longer than previously thought, and it would also make it a good early myth unit) im not too sure about having megaloceros as a myth unit, i was kinda planning to have it as a wild animal instead anancus, however, looks like a pretty good idea. those long tusks look like they would make a great anti-cavalry unit, or maybe even a living siege unit (the cro-magnons will DEFINITELY need some of those) according to my research, dire wolves ARE larger. maybe not terribly significantly, but they will be. i think ill give them the special ability of the fenris wolf brood from AOM, where they become more powerful in packs i hadnt thought of or even HEARD of those "red-eared white hounds of the wild hunt", but maybe that could work. yeah, they could! belenus doesnt have a myth unit yet! ill put that down right now! ...uhm, where could i find some information on them? EDIT: also, ideally, the cro-magnons should have two myth units to each god, a land one and a naval one, though i could probably let one god per phase go by without a naval myth unit

nah, ill do it myself oh! i forgot to mention earlier, "Churubusco" itself isnt a cryptid, its a place; i just decided to shorten "Churubusco Turtle" to that EDIT: oh, and another thing im actually trying to do is not necessarily include alot of later pleistocene animals under their actual names as myth units for the cro-magnons because i kinda want to save them as wildlife animals (another idea i had was to have a general setup of bestiary for each culture, like the celts would have animals endemic to britain and the aztecs would have animals from the southern regions of north america). here's some cro-magnon myth units i have down thus far: War Rhinoceros (basically semi-tamed woolly rhinoceros with new wooden armor(no metal, so sturdy wood plus thick hair and hides) Dire Wolf (semi-tamed dire wolf, perhaps with some kind of warpaint to further differentiate it from other wolfish myth units) Kerit (this is apparently the native name of the nandi bear, but its otherwise the same as you suggested: a cave hyena) Ngoubou (a sort-of scaled down triceratops, because ngoubou is reportedly smaller than triceratops but otherwise the same) Mahamba (a giant crocodile, a naval myth unit) Giant Lion (a cave lion) Ennedi Tiger (just a saber-toothed cat, this is ALSO an african cryptid, supposedly from Chad and pretty much being a smilodon) Gazeka ("devil pig" resembling a tapir or ground sloth, this one is actually from new guinea! i figure it could be a weak animal and maybe also be slaughtered for food if necessary)

maybe i SHOULD try to come up with a different name for them. in actuality, theyre only called cro-magnons because the first discoveries were in france; they were actually very spread out yeah, i was planning to give the polynesians a haast's eagle-type unit. it would probably be a pretty early unit ill look into those ones yeah, if you look them up on wikipedia there should be entire pages for them

i WAS planning to fill in some of the polynesian myth units with select prehistoric megafauna, but no dinosaurs. even then, it would only be one or two megafauna, like the megalania. actually, now that i think about it, theres a pretty cool giant pliocene shark called megalodon that would make a pretty good polynesian unit; its fossils have been found from east asia to south america, so its clearly a pacific animal and therefore fits into polynesian criteria and, actually, cro-magnons(and other species of human) originated in africa, so the african cryptids technically fit them as well. but the real reason its mostly african cryptids is not only because theyre the ones that actually look like dinosaurs, but also because they already have authentic names and i dont have to make something up, and alot of them have cool traits that would serve as their abilities. kongamato, for instance, is known for attacking boats, so he would be an anti-boat unit and would probably have some kind of divebombing attack im not gonna give up on including dinosaurs as cro-magnon myth units

i personally just REALLY want to include dinosaurs as cro-magnon myth units, but know that im doing so in moderation: all of the cryptids i listed are from regions where cro-magnons were present and were sighted in the modern period, which technically puts them into the timeframe of cro-magnons: if theyre around today, they must have been around then, and since theyre cryptids, they also fall into the category of fantastical/mythic creature, even if its not on the same level as creatures liek centaurs or trolls. but yeah, i think ill try to get more correct animals as most of their myth units, mostly plio-pleistocene animals

see, thats the problem i came to when i tried to make totems, i didnt want to just make up, like, a mammoth god and then have their myth unit be "mammoth", i want to be a little more creative than that. dont get me wrong, i appreciate your content and will put those gods into consideration(maybe some of their ideas will either be reimplemented in new totems or transferred over to appropriate titans) but it would just seem a bit less creative and more contrived than the other factions, or something like that. it would also be a good idea to look into evidence of paleo- and neolithic religion for more ideas, and take cave paintings into account as well when looking for gods or myth units and, though its technically incorrect, id personally like to include some dinosaurs as myth units for the cro-magnons. as i said, i know its incorrect, but who's to say the the titans couldnt bring prehistoric animals back to life? plus, fossils are often cited as the possible origins of dragon legends. i think ill try to keep dinosaurs to a minimum and try to use cryptids as bases for dinosaur myth units. here's some examples of dinosaurs that could be implemented for teh cro-magnons, and technically fit into their timeframe: Churubusco: supposed giant snapping turtle Emela-ntouka: semi-aquatic horned reptile Kasai Rex: tyrannosaur or carcharodontosaur Mbielu-mbielu-mbielu: semiaquatic stegosaur, possibly Kentrosaurus Mokele-mbembe: semiaquatic brontosaur Muhuru: jungle stegosaur Ngoubou: ceratopsian (like triceratops) Nguma-monene: ridge-backed giant lizard Kongamato: giant pterosaur Mahamba: giant crocodile Ngoima: giant eagle okay, so not all of them are dinosaurs, but they still fit the criteria

cro-magnons are really just modern man in the prehistoric era; their scientific name is the same as ours, Homo sapiens (present-day humans are actually a subspecies, Homo sapiens sapiens). and i wouldnt put a totem-based cro-magnon culture out of reach just yet, we should look into that at least, but for the time being, theyll remain titan-worshippers as for cro-magnon units, here's what i have so far: a currently unnamed spearman a currently unnamed slinger Mamutoi "Mammoth Hunter" (Javelinist) Zealandonii (Cavalry Swordsman); technically armed with an axe a currently unnamed hunting dog that serves as a cavalry spearman (this stems from a celtic cavalry unit that will be in for 0ad, which is also a hunting dog) "Maharen" (Ram); i cant remember if this is the name i came up with for the cro-magnon's battering ram or if its leftover from a previous faction, the template of which i copied for the cro-magnons) Ramudoi (Bireme); the only cro-magnon ship Shamudoi Mut (Super Unit); war mastodon and yes, those names are borrowed from Clan of teh Cave Bear, which i honestly havent read that much of yet and their heroes are: Chieftain (Sovereign-type unit) Shaman or "Mog-ur" (Sovereign-type unit); this is one thing that helps differentiate the cro-magnons from other sovereign factions in response to your actual question, yes, teh cro-magnons do have cavalry, siege, and boats just like other cultures, but they have far less and they would be less effective than other factions because theyre still very primitive. theyre a more infantry-oriented culture, and their mythological units are a bit more powerful to compensate for the rest of it. with the cultures that lack in a certain department, theyll get more or more powerful myth units to compensate

maybe a hebrew faction could be included in that hypothetical third release that i suggested before, alongside the chinese and japanese