Argantonius

Fun fact: In 0 AD's timeframe beavers lived also in Mediterranean Europe. The Romans said they were numerous in the Guadalquivir. So consider them not out of place in other maps with water. I suggested the Capercaillie (Tetrao urogallus) or the Black Grouse (Tetrao tetrix) in Alpine and Temperate and the Great Bustard (Otis tarda) in Mediterranean and steppe maps. It doesn't live in India or Africa but there are other very similar bustards there. If it doesn't fly (he-he) peacocks and ostriches are suitable replacements in these places. The Ptarmigan was listed as part of Tundra but could also appear in Alpine.

These are the most realistic wolves I've seen in a videogame. Ever.

This seems more fitting for Abrahamaic religions than ancient polytheists (and even then I'd favor a name like Martyrdom over just simple Faith). How about Organized Religion, Priestly Class, Theocracy or even Religious Donations (because your subjects are feeding your priests better?). Either name works in its own way I suppose. "Zealotry" is another option. "Animal/Ritual Sacrifice" can work too as already pointed. Barely related to that (because it made me think of Numantia and Massada) I propose: "Siege Rations" - Increases your (fighting) male population HPs and decreases the HPs of other units like women, priests and traders (domestic animals too?). Meant to be hit only when you are fighting for your base, obviously. By the way, I had not the chance to do a naval battle yet. Is capturing ships (by enemy ships) implemented or planned?

Hello back. I found this that you might want to check, an Etymological Dictionary of Basque in English. This one is especially great because it says when a word is lent from Spanish or other language. http://web.archive.org/web/20110607202936/http://www.sussex.ac.uk/linguistics/documents/lxwp23-08_edb.pdf I noticed that the new blacksmith building doesn't have a name. According to this document it could be [h]arotz ("smith"). An alternative ol[h]a is identified as "forge, foundry" but then says that it can mean just "place". Other changes: Cantabrian Cavalry / "Caballero Cantabro" - > Kantabriako Zaldun (interestingly the document notes the similarity between Basque zaldi, horse, and thieldo, a "Hispanic" word for horse recorded by Pliny. This one identifies baratze not as "orchard" but as "garden" instead. Several other words are given for "field" including okuntza, berro/berho and ganbo/kanbo (from Latin Campus) for "sown field"; sor[h]o for "field, meadow, estate, farm"; and galsoro for "wheat field". Azoka apparently comes from Arabic Suq so it's barely better than Merkatu. Other words for "Market" cited are zeia and arruga.

Ugh no no no no! 2000 years off date and it can hardly be considered 'monumental' by any means. The Iberian wonder should be something based on the Cancho Roano sanctuary complex (built c. 550 BC, destroyed by fire c. 370 BC). Really, it's the only thing trully native (although some say it has Phoenician influences) and trully monumental building in the Iberian Peninsula close to the game's period (I know you already used the Pozo Moro tombs as models for the Iberian "venerated monument"). http://www.iam.csic.es/imagenes/proyectos/CANCHOROANO.jpg http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-PoBahv2XsdY/TeCnsoBZ_HI/AAAAAAAAB0U/od4xEXaz8UE/s400/cancho_roano1.jpg http://www.vivirextremadura.es/wp-content/uploads/014_cancho_roano_07.jpg http://www.manuelgago.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/cancho_3.jpg Restorations http://www.uv.es/~alabau/Image17.gif http://doc-0k-8g-3dwarehouse.googleusercontent.com/3dwarehouse/secure/hhulr73hmmak89paul31eote4ben7ngk/9aquol2022gampo3sr0lus4j8c5fv5le/1358121600000/lt/*/57477ce6f9a6a80ae1f84a94ad02d528?ts=1206578288000&ctyp=other http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-guULYkruJtU/TsK1mTZnQXI/AAAAAAAAB70/-NQkXBoGtyA/s1600/Sin%2Bt%25C3%25ADtulo%2B1.png Objects found inside http://www.uv.es/~alabau/Image19.gif http://kikeoliva.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/fig6_1-cancho-roano.jpg?w=655 http://www.hoy.es/prensa/noticias/200803/27/fotos/006D4BADP3_1.jpg This is an example of Tartessian culture. In general, the Tartessians (and their successors/descendats, the Turdetanians) were the Iberians more civilized and received a lot of influences from Greeks and Phonicians. In fact, the game's Iberian temple is based on a Tartessian temple IIRC. Some locations even have temples to East Mediterranean divinities like this Ishtar temple from El Carambolo near Seville: http://multiply.com/mu/almogavar/image/2/photos/127/600x600/7/103-0278.JPG?et=0SDEhoe7pShOUBflJYOZ4w&nmid=294704519(first phase) http://multiply.com/mu/almogavar/image/20/photos/127/600x600/8/103-0279.JPG?et=67kl1aipC3yckk6LA%2CDbJA&nmid=294704519(second phase) http://multiply.com/mu/almogavar/image/2/photos/127/600x600/9/103-0280.JPG?et=NtZSfV1VO%2Cv795W3ps8u%2BQ&nmid=294704519 http://www.elcorreoweb.es/resources/archivos/2011/1/22/1295727741814gransev20dn.jpg Now, of course, was this Iberian or Phoenician? Well, I'm not sure, that's why I did not propose it as an Iberian wonder. But Cancho Roano is so far inland and so separate from Phoenician ports and trade routes that it only can be the work of natives. Others that could show up as eye candy in Iberian maps and the scenario editor are the Guisando bulls in the province of Avila (2nd century BC). http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-gZbaJgor-M4/TpMIE83LjTI/AAAAAAAAAIs/-D4LTxcgKi8/s1600/Toros_de_Guisando.jpg http://esphoto980x880.mnstatic.com/los-toros-de-guisando_397104.jpg These are the biggest and are quite eroded, but bull statues are common in the Iberian Peninsula through the period http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/90/Toro_%C3%ADbero_de_Osuna_%28M.A.N._Madrid%29_01.jpg http://www.cronicadigitaldejaen.es/cronica/paginas/44/4.-_Toro_iberico_de_Arjona._Museo_arqueologico_de_Granada.Foto_I._Castro.JPG http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_-pxkw--56s0/TTH1IhGX1KI/AAAAAAAAANM/_qAKpW3u00E/s1600/TORO+PORCUNA.jpg http://www.decorarconarte.com/WebRoot/StoreES2/Shops/61552482/49A3/AC5E/EFB3/779A/678F/C0A8/28B8/78AD/web50003%5B1%5D.jpg along with combinations of bulls with other things http://almansaenbici.usuarios.tvalmansa.com/encuentros/imgs/E5Balazote_Bicha.jpg lol Alternatively if the Iberian civ gets divided between an Iberian proper and a "Celtiberian" one (including not just the Celtiberians but other Celtic/IE peoples of the Western Iberian Peninsula like the Lusitanians and the Cantabrians) the Guisandos could be the Celtiberian wonder and Cancho Roano the Iberian proper wonder. I know it's unlikely but there there is the Gaul/Briton partition precedent.

By the way, since there is a donkey model already (as part of the Iberian and Celtic trader units) what about including some wild asses/onagers (desert, steppe, mediterranean)?

Well, I have to say, if the reason the Iberians don't have warships is because it wouldn't be historically accurate then giving them equally historically inaccurate fireships as an alternative doesn't make much sense, right? I agree with those that suggested giving Iberian buildings an extra attack versus ships, and making trade ships able to fire arrows when garrisoned by ranged units (not just for Iberians, but all civilizations - and not fishing ships, that would be silly). These "armed merchants" would be the crappiest of the crappiest of "warships" but they could help you buy time while you build a proper fleet or if you are momentarily out of gold and all your warships have been sunk. And lo, if the player is stup... I mean brave enough to choose Iberians and an islands map, then he could still win by spawning merchants and slingers/javelineers, and fortifying every little island with resources or strategic value. It would be slow and expensive but possible nonetheless.

I use a small computer and clicking on the chickens is difficult already. So, instead of pheasants and partridges, can I suggest the gamebirds to be of bigger species instead such as: - Great Bustard (Mediterranean, Temperate, Steppe) - there are similar species in Africa, Arabia and India too - And of course the Ostrich (Desert and Savanna) - it was present in North Africa and the Middle East in Roman times too Or you could just ignore me. That first peacock is absolutely gorgeous.

Ivory was a highly demanded material in ancient times and has continued to be so until practically the modern day. Some old threads such as this suggested including it as an additional resource in some maps but that would be over-complicating the issue. Say, instead, that some animals provide an additional ammount of metal when hunted - after all, ivory was traded for gold almost as soon as it was obtained, and a pair of tusks collected in Africa would pass from hand to hand all the way to western Europe or Japan before actually being carved. This would require a new animation for the women and citizen-soldiers though, carrying one or two white tusks over their shoulders as they move to drop the metal in a building. The animals that provide metal by way of ivory would be the most dangerous when attacked, giving the player an incentive to attack them instead of leaving them alone - elephants, hippopotamuses (both of whom would be able to destroy buildings) and walruses (the current plan list has them as fleeing huntable animals but in reality they are very dangerous when pissed off and have been seen "convincing" polar bears and orcas that attacked them to leave them alone). Other sources of ivory could be treasure-like elephant skeletons in desert/savanna/tropical maps and mammoth frozen carcases in polar maps. These ones could also include narwhals, who would be the only animals-that-provide-metal that are inoffensive and collected by fishing boats. A final though. Once herding is implemented, some types of elephant (Asian and North African) could be herded by some civilizations only (Persians and Carthaginians). The player that is using these civs would have to decide if he prefers having cheaper war elephants (herding) or an instant package of food and metal (hunting). Now, the player that *isn't* using those civs could decide to troll the opponent player that is herding elephants, and unless whatever building is holding them is well guarded he could sneak some men in and get some steaks and metal for free. tl;dr Some animals provide food and metal. From most to less amount (also danger): - African Bush Elephant (Savanna, Tropical African Maps - not herdable) - Asian Elephant (Tropical Asian - herdable) - North African Elephant (Desert, Mediterranean - herdable) - Hippopotamus (Desert, Savanna, Tropical African - not herdable) - Walrus (Polar - not herdable) - Narwhal (Polar - sea animal) - Elephant Skeleton (Mediterranean, Desert, Savanna, Tropical - only metal) - Mammoth Skeleton (Polar - only metal) Thoughs?

As of now there are no camel units (other than traders and wild animals), right?

The reason I assumed that there was sarcasm involved was because the word "Castro" is currently used in the game to name the Iberian fortress building, something that some, me included, have argued against.

Okay. Let me rephrase that. Wouldn't an hypothethical Etruscan faction... ...just look like the Greek one?

Gotta refine your sarcasm good sir - I don't know exactly what do you want to tell me. Isn't there a Stonehenge model already btw? Maybe just polish that and darn accuracy. Or use it for the "King of the Hill" scenarios (I personally prefer something like the "Ruins" in the very first AoE rather than having random wonders show up in the middle of nowhere like in AoK).

For the Iberians google something on the Cancho Roano temple complex it's probably the best you can aim for there. Not sure about the Celts. Maybe some sacred tree/forest or am I getting that confused with the Germanics lol.

ROFL btw... Isis? Greco-Egyptian fertility goddess, Augustus tried to curtail her cult without success.

Aren't they just Greeks with a funny language?

Not bad, but I would have made it different. Wider river that can only be crossed by boat, dense palm forests/grass/animals concentrated near the river shores and desert/mountains/mines on the map limits far from it. Players would be forced to invest on taking control of a lot of territory and build two cities to win the game at the evry least (one on the mountains if they start near the river and another on the other shore). Also, Egyptian eye-candy (ruins, obelisks, etc).

Thanks for the reply. I would refrain in general from using "geographic" names for the Iberians though. After all the Romans, Carthaginians, Persians etc had access to vast empires and could permit themselves the luxury of hiring X units from Y ethnic group/region in particular. The Iberians (and I suppose the Celts) could count at best on tribal alliances/confederations so they would have to train everything "at home", so to speak.

Ah, definitely. After the last batch of tropical African animals and scenarios the game is practically screaming for a Black African civilization and what would be better than that. Though it would be probably better to use an ethnic all-encompassing name like 'Nubians', that way it would cover all the states that existed in the general area during the 0 AD time table like Kush, Nobatia, Makuria and even Axum/Ethiopia. Plus, there is the fun fact that unlike Egypt itself Kush remained independent through the period and nearly uninfluenced by the exterior, continuing to build Ancient Egyptian-like buildings and all so it could be used in some campaigns as a stand-in for pre-Ptolemaic Egypt (whose addition as a civ proper would be kinda anachronistic given the game's general timeframe). As for general strenghts I'm thinking archery and hunting - What are your ideas?

Ah - but after Cyrus there isn't much there, isn't it? The conquest(s) of Egypt, some rebellions and the Median Wars which would make more sense to be played form the Greeks' POV. I don't know if there would be enough material for two Persian campaigns, assuming that each would somprise 6 or 7 scenarios.

Yeah, I later found the design document(s) of Wildfire Games for fauna here. I suppose I should have read the site more closely before I write comments... I liked specially the planned duality for the aurochs - dangerous males but capturable females. Fits quite well with what we know about the historical behaviour of the animal. Would you mind if I make a couple of comments about the list of species? Well, we know that the Persians and Carthaginians captured elephants and used them for war too, so they had to have the same or something similar. We just don't know what they called it.

I think Cyrus the Great would make a great tutorial campaign. - Persians are probably the most complete/balanced civ in the game. Great variety of units, the basic may be weak but they are cheap and can be easily replaced by the noob who loses his first batch in a botched attack. Average buildings, siege and ships too. - Most of the early scenarios would be Persians vs Persians before introducing Carthaginians and maybe Greeks as stand ins for the westernmost ME states, so the newbie wouldn't have to factor the differences between civs at first. - It's the only hero with two forms in the editor: infantry and cavalry (chariot). So you could start teaching infantry warfare before moving on cavalry. - It's also the oldest of the historical heroes included IINW, so the campaigns (one per civ I suppose) could be unlocked chronologically. Say they are Cyrus-Alexander-Hannibal-Viriato-Julius Caesar-Boudicca. EDIT: My mistake. Xerxes is the one with two forms. Cyrus is a cavalry unit only.

I, for one, like it more the way it is now than how it was in the Age of Empires series in fact. As you say it is more realistic: if you want to hunt dangerous animals like boars and elephants you send some foot spearmen; if you want to hunt fast game like gazelles and deer, you send archers/javelinists - preferably the mounted ones (might sound ridiculous, but I didn't discover until today that basic cavalry can hunt and collect food from animals too).

There must be another reason. After all the Carts can also make Celtic cavalry and Balearic slingers. Dunno, if the problem is that cavalry swordsmen and lancers would only be different in appearance, what about making one of them a champion unit with a bonus vs buildings, and get rid of the rams instead (since the Iberians didn't have siege machines historically)? - well, excuse me if I'm being weary with this issue, but I've tried to defeat an Iberian player for two hours today again and each time he seemed to be on the verge of defeat he just spammed castros and an army of rams and flattened my troops. Geez, couldn't the patch preventing that come out before the next alpha?.

Well, I see it being played different depending of the animals: - Herdable sheep and goats found all over most maps, and created in the corrals of all civilizations. - Chicken only seem to appear around each player's first civ center and it makes sense because chicken don't usually last much when they get far from humans. I think the Celts historically didn't have/eat them, BTW, so it would make sense if they were the only civ that couldn't make chicken in corrals and started with other animals around the civ center such as sheep or pigs. - Pigs, meanwhile, only seem to exist in the editor right now, and I suppose they will be introduced as an unit to be created in corrals only (unless encountered in campaigns, of course). I've read something about the Carthaginians having inherited a Phoenician taboo against eating pork so they would be the only civ that can't make pigs. Not sure if the taboo was extended to the wild boar (for the record, some Moroccan Berber communities, while Muslim, consider the wild boar and the pig to be different animals, and hunt and eat wild boar with no problem). - There are wild horses in some maps and from what I've read the Iberians will have the unique hability to herd them and receive cavalry bonus depending of how many horses they have at one time. No food production unless killed I suppose. - Not sure if there will even be cattle at all. - Not sure what they plan for the elephants either. What I would do would be making the Carthaginians and the Persians the only ones capable of herding them, but in a different unique structure, the kheddah, and get cheaper war elephants as a result.