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poVoq

MOD Idea: Diablo like ARPG based on 0 A.D.?

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Well, obviously I was partly joking... game design document have a certain merit. However at this point without anyone willing to implement the basics so far I don't see much point in having one (yet).

About the hero system, well something similar to what is there in Warcraft3, e.g. special unique units, that you can selectively choose skills/powerups and that can carry items that give them certain updates.

IMHO I don't think 0 A.D. necessarily would need that feature, but it wouldn't hurt and it would be (if designed with that in mind) a first step toward implementing more RPG like features.

However I am not fully aware of what you have already and neither do I know Rise and Fall, but how it would work in 0 A.D. wouldn't matter so much as long as it brings us a step towards the original idea of an ARPG ;)

Edited by poVoq

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Of course I was just suggesting a theme. I believe we can get a realistic and nice game without the need of magic and supernatural powers.

Also, the backstory is really important if you want to make it believable for the player. See MassEffect, per example. It had such an amazing backstory that the player could really feel that happened before and what was happening at the moment of the game was just a continuation. So yes, the story is really important. No matter how "realistic" would it be - history-wize. You can have a good story, without the need to make it completely historic. And without supernatural elements :P

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Well, obviously I was partly joking... game design document have a certain merit. However at this point without anyone willing to implement the basics so far I don't see much point in having one (yet).

I think there is, maybe not a huge document with every planned feature of course, but at least a basic document outlining the vision and idea behind it :) I mean it's hard for someone to come along and implement what you want if they don't know what you want ;)

e.g. special unique units, that you can selectively choose skills/powerups and that can carry items that give them certain updates.

Ah, no that part isn't planned (nor was the inventory part in Rise and Fall, to be honest it was more Action than RPG, though you could select new skills for the hero as you got more experience). And I don't think adding that would benefit the main game, at least not for part one. It's definitely something to think about for part two though as that will generally be more about the story-telling aspects (triggers/cinematics have been postponed for part two, and things like attrition and possibly morale etc which gives a greater emphasis on the individual units and maintaining/caring for them are things many have wanted and which may be included then).

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I think there is, maybe not a huge document with every planned feature of course, but at least a basic document outlining the vision and idea behind it :) I mean it's hard for someone to come along and implement what you want if they don't know what you want ;)

Well... they should just implement what they want, I am not their boss ;) But yes, a common, but overall not to complex "vision" can help finding people.

Ah, no that part isn't planned (nor was the inventory part in Rise and Fall, to be honest it was more Action than RPG, though you could select new skills for the hero as you got more experience). And I don't think adding that would benefit the main game, at least not for part one. It's definitely something to think about for part two though as that will generally be more about the story-telling aspects (triggers/cinematics have been postponed for part two, and things like attrition and possibly morale etc which gives a greater emphasis on the individual units and maintaining/caring for them are things many have wanted and which may be included then).

Ahh, ok. But well, wouldn't hurt to implement it now, would it? You could even disable it for now if you absolutely want to stick to your plan. Personally I think multiplayer games would benefit from such units too, but as I wrote it's not really needed for 0 A.D. as a game itself.

Hmm... but actually your comment got me thinking... how about instead of making the RPG a separate game/mod, it could also be used to turn 0 A.D. in a ARPG/RTS hybrid.

In the story mode (aka part 2) one could seamlessly zoom between "strategic mode" (aka regular RTS) and "action mode" where you control your commanding unit like in a ARPG. Obviously that would change the game-play quite a bit, but it would probably make for interesting coop-games (each controls a squad) and would also make 0 A.D. a pretty unique game. Dunno, just an idea... but I would love to play such a game.

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Ok, might as well chip in with some thoughts on the topics being discussed:

There must be some sort of core design document. For anything except the simplest projects you must have at least some idea about where you're headed - and that includes even the most "agile" development styles. Of course, I'm not suggesting to have every single aspect of the game fully specified before any development takes place (that's just as bad as having nothing at all), but you must have some sort of rough plan about what you need and how the pieces should fit together.

I'm ok with a historical setting, but I'm not sure if it'll be too boring and constraining. Maybe we could spice it up by taking elements of various ancient civilisations and mixing them in interesting ways, creating a new world that resembles our own but has its own history and lore.

I'm not opposed to having some supernatural elements in the game (it's just a bit of fun after all), but if we do I'd prefer they are not overdone in the cliché fantasy style where you have lightning bolts flying everywhere. What if instead the laws of thermodynamics work a little differently in this imaginary world, so we can create pseudo-scientific explanations for the phenomena we encounter to enrich the world's backstory?

I've been thinking about what's the best way to use 0ad's engine for an RPG, while having maximum code overlap so 0ad benefits from these changes as much as possible (at the end of the day, that's the main goal). Thinking back to AoM, I'm pretty sure there were RPG-like "quests" in some of the campaign scenarios, so realistically that should be our basis for the control system etc, but with extra RPG elements. I can think of at least three popular RPGs whose gameplay would translate beautifully into that sort of gameplay with minimal code changes: Neverwinter Nights, Fallout and Baldur's Gate (all use different engines; look for let's plays on Youtube) - there are probably many others. I'm not sure if these games are strictly ARPGs, but from a programming POV they'll definitely be the easiest (and ultimately the most useful) to try to implement in Pyrogenesis.

Finally, I'd like to stress a point made by Gen.Kenobi: While RPGs usually have a far-reaching main storyline that spans the entire game and progresses as you complete the main quests, the real meat is not the main storyline (one can typically go through the whole storyline and finish the game in like an hour), but the exploration and side-quests, which gradually reveal more trivia about the characters and gameworld. This means the gameworld needs to be a really really interesting place (both visually and in terms of backstory), as that's what the game is really about.

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Well... they should just implement what they want, I am not their boss ;) But yes, a common, but overall not to complex "vision" can help finding people.

I think it is less about being a boss and more about having an "agreement" or "mutual understanding". No one is going to want to work on a project where they can't count on the end result being something they deem worthwhile.

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Maybe the stories can overlap 0.a.d ones. I mean, telling the same stories of conquest but from the conqueror or the fighter point of view and not the empire, like 0.a.d. The plots can advance together but in a different time scale. The AI can simulate a battle or a game but 50 times slower, and the player will have the chance to change the scale.

But above all this would require a very rich and imaginative story and very very rich map with sub maps.

This king of development will assist the development of part 2 by providing most of the code neede for campaigns, multy levels and branching storyline.

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I'm ok with a historical setting, but I'm not sure if it'll be too boring and constraining. Maybe we could spice it up by taking elements of various ancient civilisations and mixing them in interesting ways, creating a new world that resembles our own but has its own history and lore.

I think "What-if" Scenarios could really work out. Or a complete new similar world could be created. I believe the idea of making somesorta of ancient RPG was just to recycle some art and elements from the current game, I suppose. That doesn't means It can't get futuristic in a Space-Opera style (what I would really enjoy :P )

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I've been thinking about what's the best way to use 0ad's engine for an RPG, while having maximum code overlap so 0ad benefits from these changes as much as possible (at the end of the day, that's the main goal). Thinking back to AoM, I'm pretty sure there were RPG-like "quests" in some of the campaign scenarios, so realistically that should be our basis for the control system etc, but with extra RPG elements. I can think of at least three popular RPGs whose gameplay would translate beautifully into that sort of gameplay with minimal code changes: Neverwinter Nights, Fallout and Baldur's Gate (all use different engines; look for let's plays on Youtube) - there are probably many others. I'm not sure if these games are strictly ARPGs, but from a programming POV they'll definitely be the easiest (and ultimately the most useful) to try to implement in Pyrogenesis.

For multiplayer a more agile, action oriented gameplay like Diablo has is a bit more fun then the relatively slow moving games you mentioned. However I agree, it should be feasible to implement easily in Pyrogenesis and then the "agility" can be tweaked to what is the most fun later.

Personally I wouldn't mind to stay within the world of 0 A.D. instead of creating something new. That way we would make sure that the projects stay close together and as little work is duplicated as possible. IMHO the best way would be probably to use this as a supplementing story to what is planned for part 2 of 0 A.D. or even to integrate it with that (see my idea above about a hybrid).

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I think an RPG set during the time period of 0 A.D. where the player controls historical figures and experiences the events that made them famous would be the best starting point.

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havent ready the full thread yet i like the idea of this mod/game if you are just basing this off dota then that ok but if this is based on the dota world as well why cant we come up with something else more original

i like the idea to staying true to the 0 A.D. roots and try to make a ARPG without magic in a somewhat accurate historical setting. that would be the best thing IMO that you do

try to stick to this type http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiplayer_online_battle_arena

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hi all,

just to push this idea ...

what about 0AD: Wrath of the Gods ... or something :artist: .... You could add that "Diablo" like game to your Wildfire Games Portfolio http://wildfiregames.com/ :yes3:

and as long as it looks ( a little ?) like this:

... you won't have any trouble finding a story or create monsters out of the (greek?) Mythology around 0AD ( Medusa for example ). Think of the cross effects if you could consider renaming the RTS 0AD to something like 0AD: Ancient Wars ... or something :artist:

Like stated in the prevoius posts recyclability of Monsters, heros, buildings etc. would be great :acute:

have a nice day

huntredall

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DOTA isn't the inspiration at all, in fact I don't really like the genre. However one could also implement a game like that on the same basis as a ARPG I guess.

@huntredall: Yeah, Titan Quest is a pretty obvious reference, and I think a game based on 0 A.D. would probably look quite similar. "0.A.D. : Ancient Wars" sounds not too bad either ;)

Edited by poVoq

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like the idea but that's about it. You can count me in once you have something playable or even movable, then can tell/share if something moves or something is broken (as a sort of manual tester). I am not a developer in any sense of the word but that doesn't stop anyone from dreaming/thinking aloud, does it ?

Hopefully though if the project does take shape then there is a new repo. which includes the art assets which are used immediately (even if it means importing them in the new repo.) It does not make sense to hog space on the hdd with art assets which would not be used immediately in the RPG setting and I know that the 0AD (at least looking from the 0ad github repo).

So if and when it happens, the best thing is do it as Povoq shared, small steps. While there could be a basic document as some people have suggested, do a roadmap for small doable tasks.

The backstory for most RPG's is about a loser (somebody who's not the typical hero per-se) but somebody who is from a lower class and due to his/her exploits, solving side-quests and what not and earning reputation as well as cash/kind things basically enriches himself and his friends. I am thinking more in the single player scenario (which is what I have played most RPG's in and do not really how the the whole multi-player version works although have played in few MMORPG's but that's an endless thing).

Look forward to something come out of all this.

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This would be still cool ;)

How is the status now regarding the heroes and the posibility to have total conversion mods including custom configs?

Would the GUI scripting allow for something like an inventory with "item tetris"?

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Did you look in the AoM direction, to (re)play some of its RPG mods?

Also, for the RPG part, such RTS as Three Kingdoms and Spellforce did have major solo/reduced crew parts, powers/spells, etc.

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Winter is our friend in our ventures. You surely guess why. So next winter we will hopefully have a protoype running, including first campaigns (the storylines). I think it's easy to allow sidequests with the now ready triggers.

Do you have some code until you encountered the config already? I will otherwise pick this up. Well, don't really have to as I already have some work done on it for the Hybrid AI. Which is exactly what you discussed here. Interesting I never encountered the topic, could have been a cool motivation.

Still what I do does not need a document of any name, it just needs goals. My goals are features and flexibility. How this may be solved is left to individuals. So a goal document is what is enough and does not repell anyone as features don't have to be used. They may be used. But noone is forced to use it. ;)

The main quest will be to serve it in small chunks, producing patches for 0AD on the way. The maintenance of those will be horrible (as I have no idea of SVN branching, but I might well look into it).

We can indeed use all the resources you posted. In Summoning Wars there strangely was some news lately: http://sumwars.org/wiki/Main_Page . The statues used in FLARE are quite nice.

Also I like the defender role a lot. Join with your friends and stop the invasion. Though for development of the individual functionality, this plays no other role than motivation. Also the Never Winter Nights Adventurer role.

If we hit performance or patch maintenance problems I already have a plan B, that might look severe to some but opens many doors.

First I have to do the Mod Manager though as to get efforts orderly and easily shareable/testable. Only after this I can continue my Hybrid AI works (I forced myself not to continue working on it some weeks ago because of my thesis, it was quite a struggle ;).

If you don't have a repository for the codebase so far, we can put it into generic where I put in my Hybrid AI once I get it compatible to Petra AI and usable ingame.

Any idea if there is no other way than overwriting the main config? Btw. which config do you mean?

find binaries -type f | grep configbinaries/system/AtlasUI_dbg.dll.2.configbinaries/system/test_dbg.exe.configbinaries/system/AtlasUI.dll.2.configbinaries/system/pyrogenesis_dbg.exe.configbinaries/data/config/default.cfgbinaries/data/config/local.cfgbinaries/data/config/user.cfgbinaries/data/config/atlas.inibinaries/data/config/dev.cfgbinaries/data/config/keys.txtbinaries/data/mods/public/simulation/ai/tutorial-ai/config.jsbinaries/data/mods/public/simulation/ai/aegis/config.jsbinaries/data/mods/public/simulation/ai/petra/config.jsbinaries/data/mods/public/simulation/ai/tauceti/config.jsbinaries/data/mods/public/gui/aiconfig/aiconfig.xmlbinaries/data/mods/public/gui/aiconfig/aiconfig.jsbinaries/data/mods/public/gui/page_aiconfig.xml
Those are all overwritable/moddable.

source/tools/autolog/SVNLog/config.ymlsource/lib/config2.hsource/lib/config.h
Those not, other than those there seem to only exist the spidermonkey 'config/' folder.

I must miss something.

Edited by Hephaestion

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That's what I also thought. It's also customisable. e.g. the local.cfg overwrites the global.cfg and such. I think poVoq is talking of something different.

But I think that's exactly what we need to do, just change the keybinding there to no longer interfere with the Hybrid->Uni_Perspective mode.

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In this context what really interests me is to combine blender's capability and pyrogenesis'.

Both alone are already so powerful. How then would a hybrid feel?

Of course the creator of Krum himself is a neverbeforeseen master and yet, it took years to accomplish. So this is where the problems arise. Look into blender forums and how many different people work at so many different projects, without real thrust behind any of their developments. Why? Noone knows why the gap behind Krum is so big. Perhaps because just work for themselves? The union is the solution, the fellowship. Without this human is lost.

I wonder if we could reuse this shader? If look at our water shader then .. wow .. it's already the peak of the everest. Yet it could be interesting from a technical aspect.

http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?170812-Non-Glsl-water-I-made-for-the-Krum-game

Blender and pyrogenesis are different worlds, the one plenty of units -- the other only some characters. Yet a hybrid is possible. (and I love the idea)

Hmm... but actually your comment got me thinking... how about instead of making the RPG a separate game/mod, it could also be used to turn 0 A.D. in a ARPG/RTS hybrid.

In the story mode (aka part 2) one could seamlessly zoom between "strategic mode" (aka regular RTS) and "action mode" where you control your commanding unit like in a ARPG. Obviously that would change the game-play quite a bit, but it would probably make for interesting coop-games (each controls a squad) and would also make 0 A.D. a pretty unique game. Dunno, just an idea... but I would love to play such a game.

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That's what I also thought. It's also customisable. e.g. the local.cfg overwrites the global.cfg and such. I think poVoq is talking of something different.

But I think that's exactly what we need to do, just change the keybinding there to no longer interfere with the Hybrid->Uni_Perspective mode.

Back when I tried this (sorry I seem to have deleted the modified config since then, and never did any code) it only extended the global config, e.g. you can add new key-bindings and overwrite others and also change the camera settings but you can't have a completely seperate local config that doesn't carry all the RTS specific stuff that rather interferes with the ActionRPG settings.

----

But it is great to hear that there is some renewed interest (especially with a iterative development style that keeps close to 0AD). Not sure if a Blender hybrid integration is really needed if the collada export is working ok now.

For high quality RPG like animations one can probably reuse the Ryzom ones, which were recently converted to the much more usable iqm format and which could probably be easily exported to the 0AD also.

So all that is needed art wise are some higher quality character models that could in the long run also replace the really low poly RTS models from main line 0AD if kept reasonably low poly. Something around 3000 tris should look and run fine for that.

If this really takes off I could probably find the motivation to start doing a modular character set like described above (I am a sufficiently skilled 3D artist, but lack motivation to work on something that isn't a working project).

Anyways... looking forward to see where this goes! :)

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is this mod dead

I'm not sure you really could say it was ever "alive", but rather more of a concept or a beginning of something. Not sure Pyrogenesis is the best engine for an ARPG, but if someone wants to do it I will not try to stop them :) And this thread is probably a good point to continue from.

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Yeah, never got beyond playing around with the camera angles in the config file. Not that I would have really been able to make this mod myself anyways.

However the lack of easy modding options in 0 A.D., i.e. you basically have to fork the entire engine if you want to do more than simple addition of units or such, is really a bit discouraging. But maybe I am just too used to the nice mod support in most open-source FPS engines.

Edit: but maybe this has changed by now... didn't check. And of course for a skilled programmer with in dept knowledge of 0 A.D. code base having all the source code available is the 'easiest' modding option... but for us tinkerers having a precompiled engine runtime and tinkering with configs and script through & being able to make a seperate game by simply having a subdirectory in the game folder and starting it with a execution argument or from an ingame mod menu simply makes things much more accessible.

For the fundamental idea to make a hybrid of an ARPG and a RTS, 0 A.D. still seems to be the best option however.

Edited by poVoq

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