Han China

[artoo]

@wowgetoffyourcellphone

 

Do you have plans for Xiongnu?

Reason for asking, atm, I added a warlord mercenary for the princess camp, and removed the champ crossbow cav, so Han only have cav archers and dao/sword cav.

From all I red on Han, they simply lacked horses to field large cav armies, which only came in later by literally horse breeding programs.

I would rather make Han depend on Xiongnu than adding these models, but atm, I think they are not in shape to depend on, yet have so very nice artwork.

Would like using Yurt props for the camp instead of adding the props to Han.

 

Still think the princess would be fun in multiplayer, but seems like a nice mechanic for a scenario or campaign too.

 

 

Edited November 16, 2021 by artoo

[Lion.Kanzen]

18 minutes ago, artoo said:

@wowgetoffyourcellphone

 

Do you have plans for Xiongnu?

Han would have to come first before Xiongnu.

Xiongnu is a challenge at the design level, it requires many things that the engine does not support yet.

 

And also a bit of mental gymnastics, to adapt some ideas to what we have, such as nomadic defenses. And then adapt it in phase 2-3 to create settlements.

[artoo]

9 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

Han would have to come first before Xiongnu.

Yup, but for the props, non buggy Xiongnu would be sufficient, just they are present to use, ie no bugs.

I kind of have this in mind ...

 

Quote

Wang Mang renewed hostilities against the Xiongnu, who were estranged from Han until their leader Bi (比), a rival claimant to the throne against his cousin Punu (蒲奴), submitted to Han as a tributary vassal in AD 50. This created two rival Xiongnu states: the Southern Xiongnu led by Bi, an ally of Han, and the Northern Xiongnu led by Punu, an enemy of Han.

 

Never ceases to amaze me, what incredible love to detail Mr AlexanderVzla had with the Xiongnu models.

 

 

Edited November 16, 2021 by artoo

[Lion.Kanzen]

25 minutes ago, artoo said:

Yup, but for the props, non buggy Xiongnu would be sufficient, just they are present to use, ie no bugs.

I kind of have this in mind ...

 

I have in mind to make defenses with Fort carts.

It occurred to me to create special places for them where carts are formed (using the garrison function) And shoot defenses in addition to archers, which can be built fast.

With this the siege pressure will be more brutal in phase 2.

It will serve both to pressure and to defend, I want it to be like the Korean tower rush of AoE2.

Edited November 16, 2021 by Lion.Kanzen

[artoo]

4 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

I have in mind to make defenses with Fort carts.

I read the Han used wagon forts too in their campaigns against Xiongnu, in the Tarim basin region.

What I read, the Han mounted heavy crossbows on the wagons. Would make sense if you want to defend against mobile horse mounted enemy.

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 minute ago, artoo said:

I read the Han used wagon forts too in their campaigns against Xiongnu, in the Tarim basin region.

What I read, the Han mounted heavy crossbows on the wagons. Would make sense if you want to defend against mobile horse mounted enemy.

I did not know that. makes things more interesting.

[Lion.Kanzen]

Here's the concept, Alexander made a model, but then he lost it.

But in the meantime we can add information.

 

[artoo]

1 minute ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

I did not know that. makes things more interesting.

 If you consider the vast distance from Han home to the Tarim, its probably safe to conclude the poor Han soldiers didn't travel on foot carrying these heavy crossbows.

Just imagine you have to carry this for I dunno, 4000+ km along the Silk road, with big mountains, Steppe and desert. Emperor: "nope guys, no horses and wagons today, but I want you to get them"

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 minute ago, artoo said:

 If you consider the vast distance from Han home to the Tarim, its probably safe to conclude the poor Han soldiers didn't travel on foot carrying these heavy crossbows.

Just imagine you have to carry this for I dunno, 4000+ km along the Silk road, with big mountains, Steppe and desert. Emperor: "nope guys, no horses and wagons today, but I want you to get them"

 

Under which general or emperor did this occur?

It would be interesting to add that mechanic to it, but only under certain conditions.

[artoo]

4 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

Under which general or emperor did this occur?

 

Give a bit time, I absorbed too much data with Han very rapidly, its atm overlayed with the historical archery sessions I had.

I get back to you.

Edited November 16, 2021 by artoo

[artoo]

38 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

Under which general or emperor did this occur?

 @Lion.Kanzen @Lopess

Now I remember why I picked Wei Qing as hero

 

Quote

 

A separate development were the use of war wagons in China. One of the earliest example of using conjoined wagons in warfare as fortification is described in the Chinese historical record Book of Han. During the 119 BC Battle of Mobei of the Han–Xiongnu War, the famous Han general Wei Qing led his army through a fatiguing expeditionary march across the Gobi desert only to find Yizhixie chanyu's main force waiting to encircle them on the other side. Using armored heavy wagons known as "Military Sturdy Wagon" (Chinese: 武剛車; pinyin: wŭ gāng chē) in ring formations as temporary defensive fortifications, Wei Qing neutralised the Xiongnu's initial cavalry charges, forcing a stalemate and buying time for his troops to recover strength, before using the cover of a sandstorm to launch a counteroffensive which overran the nomads.^[3]

The Guangwu Emperor (AD 25-57) introduced an ox-pulled war wagon several stories high with an observation tower, which was deployed at the Great Wall against the Xiongnu.^[4] By the 6th century such war wagons reached several meters in height and had up to 20 wheels.^[5]

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_wagon

 

 

Just shows how so much more sophisticated ancient cultures were than officialdom give them credit for.

This is like a tank on the ancient battle field, or crossbow tactics are the same as line tactics with firearms. First line shoots, steps behind next two lines, two guys reloads, while other lines fire.

Edited November 16, 2021 by artoo

[artoo]

Little snippet from a very interesting read on Han cavalry.

 

Quote

In 200 BC, Gaozu launched a massive military campaign the defected Liu Xin and Modu with an army of over 300,000.
It was going on very well, until the battle of Baideng.
Modu used his 400,000 cavalries to suddenly ambush the Han camp in Baideng,
cutting off all the supplies and reinforcements.
Gaozu remained caught in the trap for seven days, only narrowly escaping capture (Twitchett and Loewe, 1986, p. 386).
The decisive defeat of Baideng played an essential role in formulating a system of dynastic marriages called
heiqin 和親 (harmonious kinship).
It is where a princess was sent from the Han court to marry one of the Xiongnu princes,
as a hostage or a guarantor of non-aggression

https://www.academia.edu/43316371/Cavalry_in_the_Han_Dynasty_How_did_rulers_change_their_military_policy_to_deal_with_the_threat_of_Xiongnu

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 hour ago, artoo said:

 @Lion.Kanzen @Lopess

Now I remember why I picked Wei Qing as hero

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_wagon

 

 

Just shows how so much more sophisticated ancient cultures were than officialdom give them credit for.

This is like a tank on the ancient battle field, or crossbow tactics are the same as line tactics with firearms. First line shoots, steps behind next two lines, two guys reloads, while other lines fire.

sounds like a lot of fun to do. Create a mobile defense fort with archers and crossbowmen.

[artoo]

12 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

sounds like a lot of fun to do. Create a mobile defense fort with archers and crossbowmen.

Yup. It is 400.000 Xiongnu riders vs 10000 riders in whole Han empire.

 

Btw, I was thinking to better differentiate civs in game, what if there was a resource horse?

It would naturally limit the use of cavalry for more infantry based civs and put much emphasis on cavalry civs, Persians, Xiongnu ...

 

Edited November 16, 2021 by artoo

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 minute ago, artoo said:

Btw, I was thinking to better differentiate civs in game, what if there was a resource horse?

there should be an upkeep for war animals.

[artoo]

4 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

there should be an upkeep for war animals.

Should apply to Champ units generally, professional soldiers you pay.

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 minute ago, artoo said:

Should apply to Champ units generally, professional soldiers you pay.

only under certain circumstances.

 

I planned the upkeep so that I could surpass the population of the houses.

Once widely overcome they consume stockpile of food. To avoid this you build houses.

[artoo]

48 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

Once widely overcome they consume stockpile of food. To avoid this you build houses.

Sounds good.

Whats more to worry, if the weapons tech of various civs was accurately implemented, it would cause quite a problem.

 

Look at the range and and draw weight,450m & 340 kg they give on wiki.

 

Bow length (cm)	70-145		99	122	58-91	80
Tiller length (cm)	60-70			25.5	95.5
Power stroke (cm)	46-51		41	10-18		16
Draw-weight (kg)	68-340	55-90	20.5	36-90	90-270	180-680
Range (m)	170-450	230	91.5			340-411
Lock mechanism	bronze vertical trigger	bronze block and lever		rolling nut – bone, antler	rolling nut	rolling nut – metal
Spanning device	winch, stirrup (12th c.), belt claw (late)	claw & lever		stirrup (12th c.), belt claw (12th c.)	winch	winch pulleys, gaffle, cranequin, screw, cord pulley (15th c.)
Crossbow material	composite	composite		wood	composite	steel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_siege_weapons

[Lion.Kanzen]

32 minutes ago, artoo said:

Whats more to worry, if the weapons tech of various civs was accurately implemented, it would cause quite a problem

I can think of units to set fire to buildings (except walls)

Lopess is working on that.

[artoo]

20 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

I can think of units to set fire to buildings (except walls)

I mean more siege units, the bedded crossbows of the Han, or torsion weapons of Romans and Greeks.

450m range, outranges archers, tower ~5:1, and bows all have same stats, while they should probably have different stats in terms of range and damage(arrow weight)

 

Its long range artillery for the bigger ones, would probably require new classes for siege units, let alone the damage.

A 3m long bolt arrow could pretty much cause big damage on buildings and troop concentrations, ie wipe out multiple cav units at once.

Edited November 16, 2021 by artoo

[Lion.Kanzen]

Just now, artoo said:

mean more siege units, the bedded crossbows or the Han, or torsion weapons of Romans and Greeks

we have the battering rams and siege towers.

for the Mayans I am thinking of removable siege towers.

Based on a found mural.

From there the other way is with fire, like the fireriser.

O I have thought in units arsonists.

[artoo]

Nice, ancient warfare was pretty much mechanized too.

Hollywood did create a wrong impression with their films.

 

I think fire arrows should be a feature all civs should have. Doesn't take a genius to use arrows to set buildings on fire, all of them used them.

 

 

I also think, archery was far less static on the battlefield like shown in films.

Edited November 16, 2021 by artoo

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 hour ago, artoo said:

Nice, ancient warfare was pretty much mechanized too.

Hollywood did create a wrong impression with their films.

 

I think fire arrows should be a feature all civs should have. Doesn't take a genius to use arrows to set buildings on fire, all of them used them.

 

 

I also think, archery was far less static on the battlefield like shown in films.

we had already disassembled those videos.

We compared other reviews critizing to Lars Andersen's videos.

[artoo]

2 hours ago, artoo said:

Sounds good.

Whats more to worry, if the weapons tech of various civs was accurately implemented, it would cause quite a problem.

 

Look at the range and and draw weight,450m & 340 kg they give on wiki.

 

Bow length (cm)	70-145		99	122	58-91	80
Tiller length (cm)	60-70			25.5	95.5
Power stroke (cm)	46-51		41	10-18		16
Draw-weight (kg)	68-340	55-90	20.5	36-90	90-270	180-680
Range (m)	170-450	230	91.5			340-411
Lock mechanism	bronze vertical trigger	bronze block and lever		rolling nut – bone, antler	rolling nut	rolling nut – metal
Spanning device	winch, stirrup (12th c.), belt claw (late)	claw & lever		stirrup (12th c.), belt claw (12th c.)	winch	winch pulleys, gaffle, cranequin, screw, cord pulley (15th c.)
Crossbow material	composite	composite		wood	composite	steel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_siege_weapons

 

A few balancing questions.

 

Given the 1-10 stone unit system for crossbows along with the table above, with an average crossbow at 6 stone, how should crossbow infantry units be balanced?

The table's smallest crossbow still outranges anything with 170m.

Archers have iirc by default a 60m range, with upgrades 70m, depending in height, a bonus may apply, so maybe a 100m for archers is max.

Currently, the crossbows have the same range as bows, and also a +10% range upgrade, but that's not enough based on the data.

[artoo]

2 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

We compared other reviews critizing to Lars Andersen's videos.

Point would be, depending on battle, situation, archers can be used in more close combat shooting heavy armor piercing arrows, along with archers behind them shooting lighter long range arrows to prevent advance for example.

They used different arrows, ie archer is not archer, depends what arrows and bow type used.

This becomes more relevant if crossbows are added.

The crazy part, the small size crossbow replica in the earlier vids measured close to 60m/s or 190 fps projectile speed.

The replica in part 3 had 120 pound draw weight, ie ~60kg, and the measurement of this one is not known yet.

If the average crossbow used and deployed was at 6 stone class, 180 pound draw weight, then that's a range of >250m, with heavy bolts maybe 200m or so.

Performance of these mid size crossbows is comparable to a Mongol Bow.

 

Quote

Han soldiers were required to pull an "entry level" crossbow with a draw-weight of 76 kg to qualify as a crossbowman.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_crossbows

 

76 kg or 168 pound, makes it a soldier suitable for a 5-6 stone crossbow.

Edited November 17, 2021 by artoo