Possible Syntagma fix

[Phalanx]

Formation bonuses aren't implemented yet.  Neither is attack in formation.  I understand this, but pikes will still be second rate even once these features come out for one big reason.  The Successors can use spears for a better unit.  Thureos Spears for the Seleucids and Ptolemaics and Hypaspists for the Macedonians are a better choice than all those factions' pikes because in phalanx, they present a larger combat front.

They way a phalanx formation is filled out, is that it is wider left to right than it is front to back, while the Syntagma is relatively square.  Meaning, it takes WAY more pikes to make a spear wall that is the same size as a WAY fewer number of spears.  This means that because both formations are formidable from the front, once should just go with spears, because it'll be harder for units to flank, and to create a decent size spear wall with the Syntagma is way to costly because of the number of pikes required.

Technically, the Syntagma should be wider from left to right, and the Phalanx should be filled deeper.  Historically, the Syntagma was wielded by presenting the largest possible front of sarrissas, and letting the enemy basically impale themselves on the pikes, with a little bit of stabbing.  The Phalanx on the other hand, was all about pushing.  Once two phalanxes collided, the rear lines would push against the lines in front of them, making it basically, a contest of bulldozers.  So technically, the Phalanx formation should be filled they way the Syntagma is now, and vice versa.

Edited September 18, 2016 by SeleucidKing

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Hmm, not surre about that. My research claim classical phalanx 8 ranks deep and syntagma 16 ranks deep. The reaon pike armies have wider frontage is because Hellenistic armies were 3-4 times larger than a classical army.  In the city-states, a "large" army could be between 5000 and 8000 men, where that is a rounding error* in Hellenistic army.

There are exception of course. I list a few. (remember, exception are interesting because they are not the normal)

• Syntagma: I think at Issus Alexander had his men "lock shields" and go 8 deep by bringing the back 8 ranks forward between the files.
• Syntagma: Ptolemy Jerkface put his pikes 32 deep at Raphia I think (because he wasn't confident in their stength and loyalty), while Antiochus the Glorious True King of All Asia and Africa had quite a lot fewer pikes so only put his men 12 deep to match Ptolemy Whatshisname's frontage.
• Phalanx: Thebans used a phalanx 40 deep at Leuktra, but only on one extreme flank (to smash the Spartan royal guard and route the rest of the army). The rest were standard depth (8) and were put in "refuse" formation (something Alexander copied at Gaugamela). So imagine a big hammer.
• Phalanx: At Marathon, 2 regiments commanded by Aristides and Themistocles at center of Athenai phalanx line fight only 4 deep. Other 8 regiments on flanks fight 8 deep to smash both Persian wing and commit deouble envolopement.

 

 

 

*I exagerrate slight, but you understand.

Edited September 19, 2016 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[Phalanx]

Well, true.  We are both right.  The hellenistic armies had a larger front because of more troops, but the phalanx did fight by pushing, relying on the back lines.  I was bringing it up ingame as a possible issue to think about.  I personally think (and that's just me) that pikes should have some advantage over spears against infantry, otherwise they are useless ingame.  Are there any ideas on how to fix that?  Does anybody know the price different between pikes and spears?

[LordGood]

I don't know about you, but I find syntagma and pikes incredibly useful, just as aggro drawers and general tanks, even if their offensive capabilities are lacking. It's the purpose of infantry anyway in battle. Keeps my light infantry alive long enough to kill what it needs to. Very useful for attacking buildings too. 

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

I would like pushing mechanic in the game. I think what can be done is give a <mass> component to units and then all some formations to multiply them. Some unit, like War Elephants would have a high <mass> number regardless of in formation or not. Walking to enemy would give the standard mass and charging could maybe multiply mass by some fixed number or some variable allowed in the template. What <mass> does is allow  pushing and possibly add a multiplier to the trample and charge effects. The greater mass fdifference add more pushing (of course). Anyway, interesting idea for you. Imagine Phalanx have "Othismos" bonus: 2x multiplier to the hoplite's mass effects.

[Karamel]

Just a few words about Phalanx and Syntagma formations from what I experienced in Sybillae Vox. Remember my mod is way slower and have a bigger focus on unit positionning.

The Phalanx is not deep, usually 2 to 4 lines in the games I played. Considering the spear range, the first two lines are fighting, the deeper lines are there for formation durability (it could add a push bonus like an attack bonus for the first line anyway). So disrupting a spear line can be rather quick by making a hole in the middle.

The Syntagma is deep, 4x4 for the minimum requirement (that I made). The pike is way longer so almost everybody is fighting, at least the 3 front line. Put a Syntagma in an open door and none shall pass for example. This is especially true against swordmen who have even shorter range (not in the vanilla game), they just get impaled before getting in range. Individually pikemen are almost useless but get a strong bonus when in Syntagma (or lesser in a line/phalanx).

[Phalanx]

I was just worrying about it getting flanked by wrapping infantry, but if you guys think it's fine, that's good enough for me!  Thanks y'all!

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

16 hours ago, SeleucidKing said:

I was just worrying about it getting flanked by wrapping infantry, but if you guys think it's fine, that's good enough for me!  Thanks y'all!

That is why you need more than just 1 syntagma and game need battalions for proper battle lines. 

[Karamel]

18 hours ago, SeleucidKing said:

I was just worrying about it getting flanked by wrapping infantry

That's something I'd like to "fix" too. Also if the pikemen in syntagma could only fight in front of them that would be better. It makes it odd with all the crossed pikes and it denies flanking. And yes, you need more than one or use some spear lines to enlarge the front.

With formation being less manœuvrable (like with a turning speed to keep their bonuses) this would make it even more interesting and would allow to break some spear/pike formation from the back with cavalry for example (maybe not killing everyone without much losses but crushing in a sandwish attack)