causative Posted June 4, 2016 Report Share Posted June 4, 2016 Evaluation criteria: Does the civ have a strong infantry champion? Can this civ's champions be trained from the barracks? Only training champs from fortresses is a serious disadvantage. Does this civ have an economic advantage or disadvantage? Does this civ have a powerful hero? The minimum criterion here is a hero that gives +5 attack to champion units, like Philip of Macedon, or better. Other special considerations Exceptional civs Spartans. The combination of skiritai commandos backed up by pike champs is the best infantry in the game. They can also attack with just the skiritai commandos, which can deal economic damage and even capture CCs by themselves. Their weaknesses are poor siege, and no archers, so it's possible that a Mauryan or Seleucid opponent could build up enough chariots to kill them from a distance. The Spartan can usually take them down before that happens, however. Britons. They build structures faster, and some structures give extra population, which reduces the need for houses. On top of that, they have solid sword champs that can be trained from the barracks, and the best hero (Boudicca). Briton champs also have a fast walking speed, especially with Boudicca. Britons also have slingers that cost stone instead of wood, which helps them out on low-wood maps. Briton chariots deal the most raw damage of any champ, but are weak to arrows and pikes (like any cavalry). Decent civs Macedonians. They have the second-best pike champs, which can be trained from the barracks. The pike champs cost only 50 metal (but 100 wood), which is an advantage on maps with enough wood. They have a strong hero. An equal number of Mace champs will beat Briton champs, and in fact will beat any infantry except for Spartans. However, Macedonians are economically slower than Britons. Also, their champs walk slowly, and are weak against buildings. Iberians. They have sword champs that can be trained from the barracks, and benefit from powerful starting walls. Iberians are a good civ for noobs in team games, because the starting walls mean they will not die early on (if they defend with half a brain). Also, Iberians can make cavalry skirmisher champs, which are very good at killing buildings since they deal crush damage. (Beware - Iberian cavalry skirmisher champs are worthless against enemy champs. Don't make that mistake). However, Iberians suffer from having no good heroes. Mauryans. They have sword champs that can be trained from the barracks. Their elephants make them good on low-wood or low-metal maps, and can also provide a food bonus via gathering berries. Mauryan citizen-soldier archers help protect them against rushes. Mauryans have no good heroes. Mauryan Yoddha champs are siege only - worthless against other champs - so usually don't make them. Also, elephants are useless. There's no real point to making maiden guard archers because the chariots are better. Gauls. They have a late game economy boost with heroes Britomartus or Brennus. They also have sword champs that can be trained from the barracks, and faster-building (but weaker) buildings, like the Britons. Compared to the Britons, what they lack is a hero that boosts champs enough. Romans. They have decent champs that can be trained from the barracks, and a good hero who blesses civ-soldiers as well as champs with +5 attack. (I wonder if that hero could be exploited, perhaps by sending in Roman Swordsmen or Pikemen with the champs... they might be able to mimic Sparta, only weaker. Worth a try.). Okay civs Persians. They have archer civ-soldiers and a decent pike champ. However, they cannot train this champ from the barracks, which slows them down. In fact, they can only train it from a single building, or from their hero. Their hero gives no bonus to their champs. Athenians. They have decent champs, and in team games their champ archers can be a big help. However, they have no good heroes, and they cannot train champs from the barracks. Carthaginians. They train champs from their temples, and have no good heroes. Their champs are decent, however, and they do have archer civ-soldiers. Challenging civs Seleucids. They have a good selection of champions, including the best cavalry in the game, and can make military colonies. However, the fact that their champions can only be trained from the Fortress makes them relatively slow to build up. Also, they lack a good hero. In a team game, they can be good if they are given enough time to build up. Ptolemies. They can rush with camel archers, which can be hard to defend against especially if they do it very early (at the 2-4 minute mark). Ptolemies also have good building defenses and military colonies. If the game gets to champions, however, Ptolemies can only train cavalry champions, which are hard countered by enemy pike champs. In addition to that huge weakness, Ptolemies can only train champions from the fortress. In a team game, if they are given time to build up, they can be useful for harassing trade with their cavalry. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Monkey Posted June 4, 2016 Report Share Posted June 4, 2016 (edited) There are a few things that I would change on this list 1. Macedonians > Spartans. Why? Because you can spam more champs with just barracks. On the other hand you need special buildings to spam spartan champs, which are actually quite expensive, and considering that you should atleast build 5 (as well as baracks for normal workers) your economy will be set back quite a bit when compared with macedonians. That way macedonians will be able to are able to build 70 while you have built 50 (just an estimate). They are able to reconstruct armies much faster, and they are able to rebuild barracks much faster than you can rebuild the special buildings, moreover macedonians have slingers which overall gives them a better economy. Finaly Macedonians have an actual potential to build defences while spartans cannot. 2. Mauryans > Spartans Why? To put it simply mauryans have the most complete arsenal in the entire game, they have the strongest meelee champion in the game (on par with britons, romans and iberians and gauls), Yodhas which experienced players DO build (in an army you should have around 20) they are the best to just run attack a building while the Maiden guards take on the people. Their worker elephants also play a huge role as they allow mauryans to have an economical advantage over the spartans. The only thing that makes britons better than mauryans is that they have a better hero, and they can keep up economy wise because of their slingers. (romans have that hero too however they can not keep up economically). A few more changes which I will quickly point out, here is my overall list. I tried to keep it with your format so it is comparable. Exceptional civs: Best civs at the moment Britons (Best meelee with best hero and great economy) Mauryans (Best meelee, has many styles of play, great economy) Macedonians (Very good meelee, great economy, moderate defences) Good civs: All of these are equally as good and have to potential to be exceptional with practice Spartans (Very good meelee, not as strong as they used to be) Iberians (Best meelee, good cavalery, good defences, bad heros) Romans (Best meelee, best hero, mediocre economy but it can be good) Okay civs: Unique civs that are decent, however they lack many important things that others don't, some have potential to be good with practice) Athenians (Best archers, mediocre economy, has potential) Cartagenians (Best defences, Mediocre economy, good arsenal) Gauls (Best meelee, Mediocre economy, unique) Challenging civs: Selucids (Mediocre but unique arsenal, Mediocre economy, has potential) Ptolemies (Great economy, terrible arsenal) Persians (Great arsenal, mediocre economy, NO CHAMP SPAM) Edited June 4, 2016 by Mr.Monkey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion.Kanzen Posted June 4, 2016 Report Share Posted June 4, 2016 we need counter melee units like spartans and heroes like Agis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
causative Posted June 4, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2016 Spartans have kind of a secret power. The secret is Skiritai. Never send in Spartan champs without 50 Skiritai in front of them, and you will kill far more of the enemy champs than they kill of yours. Spartans are the only civ where slow champ production is okay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion.Kanzen Posted June 4, 2016 Report Share Posted June 4, 2016 Persian are the worst indeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanderd17 Posted June 4, 2016 Report Share Posted June 4, 2016 To fix the persians, what about adding a tech to the apadana that enables champions to train from the barracks? So it still requires the apadana to be build to get champs, but once you have that building, you can spit out more champs. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Monkey Posted June 4, 2016 Report Share Posted June 4, 2016 17 minutes ago, causative said: Spartans have kind of a secret power. The secret is Skiritai. Never send in Spartan champs without 50 Skiritai in front of them, and you will kill far more of the enemy champs than they kill of yours. Spartans are the only civ where slow champ production is okay. This isn't really true, see the problem is civs like macedonians or any civ that has faster production will not wait, as soon as they have 40-50 spartans will only have 20-30 if not less, that is simple not enough for defence, even with a bunch of citizen soldiers (which is a bad idea because they waste a lot of metal which you desperately need after building a bunch of military halls). Also if any devs see this, the Macedonian Silver shield regiment upgrade does not work properly, it only increases their health by 10% and it does not increase their attack or armour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
causative Posted June 4, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2016 Mr.Monkey, I cannot overstate how powerful Spartans properly used are. If the enemy has 40 champs and Spartans have 20 champs plus 70 Skiritai at their base, Spartans are winning that battle and losing far fewer resources and metal. Or, more often, the Spartan can simply attack with the Skiritai before the enemy has any champs, and wipe out his entire economy. Spartans are truly head and shoulders above every other infantry and deserving of the #1 spot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Monkey Posted June 4, 2016 Report Share Posted June 4, 2016 (edited) There is no way you could have 70 skirtai and 20 champs when the enemy only has 40, if you are playing against against an unexperienced player yes, but an experienced player with the great economy of macedonians should have 50 champs around minute 13, there is no way you can have 70 skiritai and 20 spartans by 13 minutes, the amount of metal needed for that is crazy. I understand that spartans are strong, but due to their slow economy, and their units not being the strongest, they are not in the level of britons, mauryans and macedonians. Edited June 4, 2016 by Mr.Monkey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
causative Posted June 4, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2016 (edited) You're making the 70 Skiritai anyway, and will certainly have them by 13 minutes (actually I think more like 11-12 minutes) because they're citizen-soldiers. They're hanging around chopping wood and mining. 13 minutes is actually a bit early to have 20 champs as Spartans, especially if you've been attacking with the Skiritai. In fact it's also very early to have 50 champs as Macedonians. The 15 or 16 minute mark is more like it for 50 champs unless you're playing with med/high resources or treasures. Sparta 70 Skiritai 20 champs = 70 x [50, 40, 0, 10] + 20 x [100, 100, 0, 50] = 5500 food, 4800 wood, 1700 metal Mace 40 champs = 40 * [100, 100, 0, 50] = 4000 food, 4000 wood, 2000 metal. Edited June 4, 2016 by causative Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Monkey Posted June 4, 2016 Report Share Posted June 4, 2016 2 minutes ago, causative said: You're making the 70 Skiritai anyway, and will certainly have them by 13 minutes (actually I think more like 11-12 minutes) because they're citizen-soldiers. They're hanging around chopping wood and mining. Sparta 70 Skiritai 20 champs = 70 x [50, 40, 0, 10] + 20 x [100, 100, 0, 50] = 5500 food, 4800 wood, 1700 metal Mace 40 champs = 40 * [100, 100, 0, 50] = 4000 food, 4000 wood, 2000 metal. You only get the skiritai at town phase, so unless you rush to it (which would reduce your economy even more). Furthermore 11 minutes? an average player would be able to get around 110 people in total at that time, lets say you are above average and you have 130 units at that time, you say 90 of those units you get after phase 1, meaning you only had 40 units before you went to town phase, if you are above average that would mean you go to town phase at minute 3, even if im generous and i say minute 4 that is still going to affect your economy by a LOT. I simply cannot believe that you can get 90 units after town phase by minute 11. Do you have a demo? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niektb Posted June 4, 2016 Report Share Posted June 4, 2016 I feel there is a game with Macedonians vs. Spartans coming up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
causative Posted June 4, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2016 Fine, what's your nick in the multiplayer lobby? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Monkey Posted June 4, 2016 Report Share Posted June 4, 2016 I'm not looking for a match here, I haven't played 0.a.d in months due to exams, even still if you beat me it wont prove anything, I am just asking if you have a demo of you getting to 90 units (70 skiritai and 20 hoptiles) by minute 11. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
causative Posted June 4, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2016 (edited) Here is a replay of me fighting a better player (nobody___). We both played Spartan, but he had the better economy and overwhelmed me with Skiritai. No champs - the game didn't get that far. He made contact with me at 10:43, at which point he had 45 Skiritai and 144 pop, and was double producing batches of 5 Skiritai from 2 barracks. nobodyreplay.tar.gz By the way - don't exaggerate my claims. I said that you can have 70 skiritai by 11-12 minutes, which is true, and that 13 minutes is too early to have 20 champs (or 50 as mace). Edited June 4, 2016 by causative Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Monkey Posted June 4, 2016 Report Share Posted June 4, 2016 At minute 10 you had 20 skiritai, no champs and 79 workers (most were women) that is 100 people at minute ten, pretty good, pretty straight forward. But even still you were nowhere near 70 skiritai and 20 champs, even if you had another 3 minutes you would probably have just around 50 skiritai with no champs. Even your opponent who had a pop of 122 only had 30 skiritai by minute 10 and no champs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
causative Posted June 4, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2016 (edited) My opponent is better than I am. Watch him, not me. Now I said 70 skiritai by minute 11-12, which means from 11:00 to 12:59, and said 13 minutes is too early for 20 champs. You first interpreted that as "20 champs and 70 skiritai by minute 11." Now you're looking at 10:00 and asking where are the champs? Why don't you read what I actually say instead of what you imagine? Edited June 4, 2016 by causative Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
av93 Posted June 4, 2016 Report Share Posted June 4, 2016 (edited) Skiritai tactics it's nerfed in actuall SVN. Edit: At least in paper Edited June 4, 2016 by av93 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Monkey Posted June 4, 2016 Report Share Posted June 4, 2016 (edited) Minute 10 is when he attacked you meaning its when the course of his and your economies changed, what his economy is at minute 13 in this game is nowhere near what it would be if he had not attacked. That is why I had to "imagine" since the demo you gave me only had useful information till minute 10. Lets say Nobody_ was able to keep his economy intact after attacking you, lets look at the numbers At minute 13 Nobody_ had a total of around 100 infantry, 0 being champions and 38 being normal workers, meaning he had made 62 skiritai in 13 minutes, which I give you, its pretty close to your original claim, however his economy is in a terrible state with only 200 metal, 400 food and 900 wood. There is no way he could of built an army of champs in those conditions. At minute 13 a civ with a normal economy should have around 1000 metal to start building champs. Edited June 4, 2016 by Mr.Monkey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
causative Posted June 4, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2016 (edited) Unused resources are wasted resources. The fact that he had low resources is a testament to his skill as a player, and says nothing about the state of his economy. Here is the correct way to count how many Skiritai nobody___ made. He lost 55 units - all but 2 of them skiritai - and had 32 skiritai remaining, which you can tell by switching to his player view in the replay and alt-double-clicking on a skiritai. So by 13:00 he had made 85 skiritai. This was while attacking. If he had been staying at home using the skiritai to mine resources, he could have had much more. Edited June 4, 2016 by causative Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merov Posted June 5, 2016 Report Share Posted June 5, 2016 (edited) I have to disagree with the persian , their hero is good and you can spam champs from him , ask elexis how do i play with the persian , when i take the persian i always win (depends on team work too) so it's a matter on how do you control them. PD: persians are not the worst ,they are now better with the new eles and champs building on svn. Edited June 5, 2016 by Merov 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
causative Posted June 5, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2016 Mr.Monkey - check this replay out too. This is against the same player (nobody___) who is admittedly better than I am. This time I had Spartans and he had Britons. This game went on until I got champs and finished him off - very late, 14 champs at 22 minutes - but I had no problem killing the 61 champs he made throughout the game as well as many workers to cripple his economy. nobodyreplay2.tar.gz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imarok Posted June 7, 2016 Report Share Posted June 7, 2016 On 4.6.2016 at 1:37 PM, Mr.Monkey said: Yodhas which experienced players DO build (in an army you should have around 20) they are the best to just run attack a building while the Maiden guards take on the people. Why should anyone build Yoddhas as Maiden guards have the same stats and costs, but deal 4 more Hack and Pierce damage? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
causative Posted June 7, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2016 Yoddhas are all about the crush damage, which is useless against units because most units have very high crush armor, but powerful against buildings, which have low crush armor. It's usually better to have 20 more maiden guards than 20 Yoddha, because if your maiden guards are fighting the enemy champs, and you have 20 fewer maiden guards than the enemy champs, you are not winning that fight and all your maiden guards will die. The situation where you would make Yoddha is in the late game if you are already very ahead and the enemy has a heavily fortified position that you have to break into. In other words, the same situation where you would make siege rams. Yoddha = siege rams, approximately. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion.Kanzen Posted August 31, 2016 Report Share Posted August 31, 2016 I don't like how is actually working Athenians in the game, their bonuses aren't enough good... the walls can be used in middle phase, in late is too ...late? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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