New strategy - Being in debt - easy way to implement

[JC (naval supremacist)]

Did you ever were too optimistic in your unit production rate and be like in a shortage of ressources , stucked at some point in your growth ?

By now, when you have 0 ressources = 0 unit production. It could be a short-term problem. Your investissment was too big and your growth is penalized at some point.

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Now, one can push the idea further :

When one have 0 ressources, one should be able to produce a unit but it would cost more $$$ to produce it.

And it would cost more and more $$$ to produce a unit , the more you are in debt.

Exemple of the state of the portofolio :

Food : -2000 , Wood : -3000 . A spearman would cost : 70 food and 80 wood

Food : -200 , Wood : -100 . A spearman would cost : 52 food and 51 wood

The extra $$$ you have to pay for the unit represents the interests you have to pay depending the health of your capital . The more you are in debt, the more you

have to pay extra cost.

This can be another good strategy to win .. being in debt , over-grow .. but.. putting your game at risk if your enemy harass you in a way you are not able to make the

ressources-gathering following at the right rate the unit-production... your inner strategy will turn against you and could lead you in a true eco recession

Edited October 18, 2015 by JC (naval supremacist)

[auron2401]

Good idea, but bad.

this would make it impossible to starve anyone out.
Also, would be bad gameplay wise because resources would become worthless.


...you don't have to repay your debts, if you have already won the game.

[FeXoR]

0 A.D. doesn't use money (of any curency like $ - not to mention "$$$"). It uses the actual resources needed to produce units and/or build buildings.

You don't have to repay depts - de facto removing resources as a game element.

I herby ask you to think things through before posting, seriously!

[JC (naval supremacist)]

...you don't have to repay your debts, if you have already won the game.

You don't have to repay depts - de facto removing resources as a game element.

Good observation auron2401 and Fexor, i didn't even think about it. So.. what does banks when one don't pay back ... they take your assets .. Bam ! When ? Good question

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$$$ = means ressources of any kind

[JC (naval supremacist)]

Why not simply make a debt state an ability for each civ with its own floor limit ?

For exemple :

- Persian can be -500 of each ressources at Phase I , -1000 at phase II and -2000 at Phase 3

- Carthage can contract bigger debts but will have to pay bigger interest rates.

- Ptolemies cannot borrow stone .. etc

And, as said before, the bigger you are in debt in a ressources, the bigger you have to pay a unit with that ressources.

i.e : Food : -200 , Wood : -100 --> A spearman would cost : 52 food and 51 wood

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This idea induce the possibility to LEND money : Simply buy a bond of any $$$ in your market , market will produce it (like a unit or a upgrade), and you will get later the value of the bond + interest rate once produced

ie : buy a bond of 100 wood, and you get, after some time, 106 wood. If you delete your investment ticket before time , you will just get you 100 wood back.

The interest rate given to you will be in relation of the value of the good on the market. It will be less risky than trading but less valuable. Also, when you lend a ressources, lets imagine that the ressources is CHEAPER on

the market of your ennemy , so, it can helps him and be a down side for you in short term

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So with this, people can make some long term strategies. I know its a bit fuzzy but one can imagine a game where you can plan a big crisis of metal.

I.E :

-> you decide to collect lot of metal, you decide to buy "metal-bonds" (= you lend Metal to the Market)

-> then your ennemy can obtain cheaper metal on market (coz its more avaible on Market),

-> you have more metal later thanks to interest rate,

-> but the metal value can collapse if your ennemy dont buy metal on market (even if he might do it) ...

-> in a result all players will have to spend MORE metal to have a unit (ie : a champion will cost no more 50 metal but 93) .

____________

To summarize : make fluctation between 3 things and find the right balance

- ressources gathered

- ressources invested in bonds (tickets you invest/buy at your market)

- fluctation on price of units

This will create a true FINANCIAL (above economy) aspect on the game and the possibility of new strategy as you can influence the price of units.

Edited October 27, 2015 by JC (naval supremacist)

[JC (naval supremacist)]

In other words, it will be good idea that you can make something with your extra $$$ to influence the game

and also decide to be in debt if you think it can worth it.

By now, its too binary :

+ xxx = you can buy

+ 0 = no

[niektb]

I think need to study Business Economics before understanding this proposed mechanism. (also I'm not sure whether economy was so complex at that time with bonds and tickets)

Edited October 27, 2015 by niektb

[JC (naval supremacist)]

The concept is simple, its inflation :

the more a ressource is avaible on the global market (both players) ,

the less this ressources worths on the economy (ie : at the end of the game, food worths often nothing on market)

the more you have to spend that ressources to obtain your good (my idea is to reflect this reality in the game)

exactly like money.

The american Federal Reserve have the power on the value of money as it can decide to emit money in economy OR to remove money from the economy. The availability

of money (or not) influence the general interest rate on markets (more money = cheaper money = low interest rates)

The are the master of the money and able to create big fluctation, creating people to be in over-debts when the interest rates are low, emit money again -> higher the interest rates

and wait that they bankrupt (as they cannot reimburse anymore) to buy their real stuff (ie : houses) for peanuts.

My idea is simply the same : a player with lot of ressources could use it in the same way by buying bonds (emit ressources) on the market in a way the ressources will worth nothing.

In a result , an enemy with few metal (its an exemple) wont be able , no more, to buy strategic units like champions as it requires more metal to buy it !

Edited October 27, 2015 by JC (naval supremacist)

[JC (naval supremacist)]

Basically, like military Turtling VS Rushing ,

here, its a new 2 face strategy :

Decide to over-growth by being in debt VS Saturate a market with gathered ressources in order to make the player in debt pay even more his units later.

Both strategies have good qualities or down sides.

[niektb]

The resources represent the cost to train that unit, and not the value that represents the unit (e.g. a sword just costs N amount of metal to create (that's the amount the smith needs to forge it) and not suddenly 2N metal because metal has a lower global value)

Edited October 27, 2015 by niektb

[JC (naval supremacist)]

ok, so if the ressources represent what you need to build a units and not their value, then you are right. ie N metal to build (and not buy) a sword)

--> Its just that the market (possibility to exchange goods) gives each ressources a relative value. So this can leads to the idea of an "invisible" money

[JC (naval supremacist)]

But still , if you borrow 100 metal , its not impossible that the "market" ask you 105 metal later. So even, there is no money in 0AD, one can imagine that the 4 ressources

can be all considered as "money" as you can exchange them for 1 to another.

For exemple, the blacksmith use metal as money and buy his food with metal. The same blacksmith ask people to pay him with metal as he can build swords with it.

This guy will put 100 metal in his word but will have to pay 5 extra metal to the Market as he was in debt

Edited October 27, 2015 by JC (naval supremacist)

[JC (naval supremacist)]

By now, in 0ad 18 ,I wonder how the 4 ressources fluctuate on the Market.

[JC (naval supremacist)]

All this worths that people give their opinions as it needs quite thought.

Borrowing/Lending ressources to market and how implement easily the concept

[bouke]

By now, in 0ad 18 ,I wonder how the 4 ressources fluctuate on the Market.

Have a look at this: http://trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/Manual_OtherFeatures#Barter

[JC (naval supremacist)]

Thanks !

I read this : " Prices are global, i.e. all players have the same prices and a deal of any player affect all other players as well. "

Thats what i was talking about, a system of lending/borrowing ressources where the prices are affected on markets (and why not on Trade incomes as well)

[niektb]

Is the current state that the barter rates are global or does everyone has his own rates?

[bouke]

The current state is that the barter prices are global. Everyone pays and gets the same amount of resource.

[oshron]

it's my understanding that bartering resources at the market in pretty much all RTS games operates on the basic laws of supply and demand: flood the market with one resource, and its value will go down, so if you do so much with that in a short time you'll end up having to trade 100 food for 1 metal, for example; i notice this a fair bit late in the game against AIs since their own activities inhibit my expansion out of what i initially land-grabbed earlier in the game so, eventually, i become reliant on internal trade with merchant units and trading resources at the market (since farms at present have infinite food, i use this to do so since, for as little as it gets me, i can get more food much more easily than the other resources)

debt would be impractical to fit into the regular gameplay of an RTS game, though. i could see it coming up in a specific scenario with triggers put in place to simulate it where, in order to win you need to pay off those debts (which probably cap at some point for fairness' sake) and periodically rise or else you'll be attacked. stuff like that.

[oshron]

(accidental double-post; ignore)

Edited October 30, 2015 by oshron

[JC (naval supremacist)]

in order to win you need to pay off those debts (which probably cap at some point for fairness' sake) and periodically rise or else you'll be attacked. stuff like that.

- Its a good idea. In the RTS saga Dune, you have to pay tributes to the Emperor, otherwise you get attacked. Here, if you don't pay debts, one can imagine coming an army of the Deutsh Bank or something .

Another way for the bank would be rather to give the enemy the amount of money (or more) you must pay back.

- Dune game offers 2 way to buy military stuff : the factory where prices are definitive and the "star port" which is a interplanetary military market which fluctuating prices. Here, in 0AD, one can imagine that you can buy soldiers on a fluctuating price basis (slaves) and still enrole regular soldiers in barracks.

- My idea was just to create a new dimension (financial) in the game where you can use a strong economy (lot of ressources) to break the ressources prices in order to make indirectly impossible for your ennemy to

buy new units.