Article about siege war under Han dynasty

[Lion.Kanzen]

Strangely enough, we found little mention of siege weaponry right after the demise of the Qin and in the succeeding Han dynasty. The Han dynasty (206 B.C.-A.D. 220), further extended the borders of China, establishing the first official military outposts along the narrow northwestern corridor of what would eventually be known as the Silk Route. Investigations of the writings from the highly fragmented bamboo-strip Shoufa Shouling Shi San Pian, a manual on siege warfare from the Han dynasty, revealed a reference to a mobile weapon called the Ji (or Jie) Che Plough Cart, with a 50bu (75m) range, spaced on top of defensive walls at intervals of 200bu (300m) for 5-crew versions and 50bu for smaller 3-crew versions:

" for high Ji Che that have a range of 50 bu, one is deployed every 200 bu, while smaller Ji Che are deployed every 50 bu. A crew of 5 for every large Bei (Cup), while a crew of 3 for every small Bei."

With a relatively short 50bu range, this Ji Che might have been a small traction catapult and not an arcuballista, as ranges for even the smallest arcuballistas would had easily exceeded this distance. The use of the word Bei (Cup) might refer to the use of a scoop instead of a sling to seat a projectile, and fired in a seesaw-like motion. This perhaps even explained the word Plough in the name. However, as there was no further information available to be gleaned from the bamboo-strips, the workings of this mobile catapult remained elusive.

In the Huai Nan Zi ca. 120 B.C. we found a description of a Wu Gang Che or Military Strong Cart, one of the few references to Han era field artillery:

"Ancient soldiers were armed only with bows and swords; their spears had no pick-axes and their bills no hooks. But the soldiers of the late times have had to be equipped with battering rams for attack, and shields against the arrows; they shoot with multi-bolt crossbows which are lashed to carriages for the fight."

From the Han Shu or Records of the Han one more reference stood out, in Li Ling's campaign of 99 B.C. for the possible use of a Han era arcuballista. Beleaguered and harassed in a fighting withdrawal deep in nomad country, Li Ling's army used what seemed to be wagon mounted crossbows in a defensive formation to defend against the attacking Shanyu cavalry. The early formative years of the Han surely must have employed great numbers of siege machines of some sort but to date, there is scant evidence of such in written records and none in Han era excavations.

One theory that might account for this sudden disappearance is that the Han, unlike the combative states of the Warring States period, had little need for large siege weapons. The borders of the Han neighboured empty nomad steppe lands and vast deserts. This forced a more mobile style of warfare onto Han commanders and instead of sedentary siege techniques we see the development of lager type infantry squares as temporary defenses and an emphasis on highly mobile cavalry in an extremely early version of maneuver warfare, helping project Han military might beyond the garrisoned borders of China.

[Lion.Kanzen]

The pivot catapult, known as the traction trebuchet, had existed in China since the Warring States period (as evidenced by the Mozi).^[203] It was regularly used in sieges during the Han dynasty, by both besiegers and the besieged.^[203] The most common projectile weapon used during the Han dynasty was the small handheld, trigger-activated crossbow (and to a lesser extent, the repeating crossbow), first invented in China during the 6th or 5th century BCE.^[204] Although the nomadic Xiongnu were able to twist their waists slightly while horse-riding and shoot arrows at targets behind them, the official Chao Cuo (d. 154 BCE) deemed the Chinese crossbow superior to the Xiongnu bow.^[205]

^{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_and_technology_of_the_Han_dynasty}

[wolflance]

Just my 2 cents:

While the technology certainly existed, Han army never used stone-thrower as siege weapon until Three Kingdoms period, AFAIK.

However two other siege weapons can be found on Han period arsenal records: The lián nǔ chē （连弩车）and wǔ gāng qiáng nǔ chē （武刚强弩车, shortened to wǔ gāng chē 武刚车）.

The lián nǔ chē is (believed to be) an up-scaled version of the repeating crossbow.

The wǔ gāng qiáng nǔ chē is a horse-drawn wagon armed with heavy crossbow. Usually formed into a Laager (Wagon fort).

Battering ram or chōng chē（冲车）are recorded as well.

Oh, and that gigantic siege tower lǚ gōng chē （吕公车）seems to be a much later design (Song dynasty and later).

Edited September 24, 2014 by wolflance

[Lion.Kanzen]

Just my 2 cents:

While the technology certainly existed, Han army never used stone-thrower as siege weapon until Three Kingdoms period, AFAIK.

However two other siege weapons can be found on Han period arsenal records: The lián nǔ chē （连弩车）and wǔ gāng qiáng nǔ chē （武刚强弩车, shortened to wǔ gāng chē 武刚车）.

The lián nǔ chē is (believed to be) an up-scaled version of the repeating crossbow.

The wǔ gāng qiáng nǔ chē is a horse-drawn wagon armed with heavy crossbow. Usually formed into a Laager (Wagon fort).

Battering ram or chōng chē（冲车）are recorded as well.

Oh, and that gigantic siege tower lǚ gōng chē （吕公车）seems to be a much later design (Song dynasty and later).

Thank you a other alternativas to siege warfare specially to destroy fortifications ??

[wolflance]

Thank you a other alternativas to siege warfare specially to destroy fortifications ??

They have Battering Ram .

If the modders decided to include Three Kingdoms period warfare, then stone thrower is fair game.

[niektb]

We currently have these:

Siege Tower (Lin Chong Lu Gong Che): http://www.grandhistorian.com/chinesesiegewarfare/siegeweapons-chongche.html

Siege Crossbow (Shoushe Nu): http://www.grandhistorian.com/chinesesiegewarfare/siegeweapons-chuangzinu.html

What do you think of them?

Edited September 24, 2014 by niektb

[Lion.Kanzen]

We currently have these:

Siege Tower (Lin Chong Lu Gong Che): http://www.grandhistorian.com/chinesesiegewarfare/siegeweapons-chongche.html

Siege Crossbow (Shoushe Nu): http://www.grandhistorian.com/chinesesiegewarfare/siegeweapons-chuangzinu.html

What do you think of them?

hehe long time without test the mod. Guys post screenshots hehehe.

[wolflance]

That Siege Tower called "Lin Chong Lu Gong Che "（临冲吕公车） is from later period (namely Song ~ early Ming). Similar weapon called lín chē （临车） did exist before Han Dynasty, yet the Han army did not seems to use them.

The link you gave me about the Shoushe Nu （手射弩）seems to indicates that this is a Tang Dynasty (and later) weapon. Probably too advanced for Han period.

(Eastern) Han Army did use heavy siege crossbow (which use spear as ammunition) to defend their city. No specific name was given though.

Edited September 24, 2014 by wolflance

[niektb]

According the article I quoted above the Siege Tower was already in use in the Warring States period and was still in use during the Han Dynasty. A better translation/choice would be Long Che (High Cart) instead of the Lin Chong Lu Gong Che (Duke Lu's Overlook Assault Cart)

[wolflance]

The Lin Che in that article is "临车". Spring Autumn and Warring States period terminology.

The Long Che probably is “隆车”(uncertain). It was mentioned together with the battering ram (chong che) as "long chong （隆冲）" , in a book compiled by Liu An, grandson of Emperor Liu Bang and the inventor of Tofu. He was then promptly accused of staging a rebellion and then committed suicide out of fear of retaliation.

EDIT: The book in question is Huai Nan Zi.

The Chong Che is “冲车” , which as I said is a battering ram.

Edited September 24, 2014 by wolflance

[niektb]

[...]

The link you gave me about the Shoushe Nu （手射弩）seems to indicates that this is a Tang Dynasty (and later) weapon. Probably too advanced for Han period.

[...]

Just quoting from the same link:

The relative peace of the Han dynasty saw little mention of arcuballistas but we do know that they were in use during the time of the Han in military expeditions into the northwest, from Han historical records. Cart-mounted and called Wu Gang Che or “Military Strong Carts”, these mobile arcuballistas served as field artillery to fortify Han infantry squares against a more mobile mounted nomad enemy. The siege crossbow also saw prominence, coming to the forefront during the turbulence of the Three Kingdoms Period, when Wei, Shu (Han) and Wu battled in a three-cornered fight for dominance of the Chinese heartland.

But then again, Wu Gang Che would be a more proper name for our Arcuballista/Siege Crossbow. The Shoushe Nu variant of the Siege Crossbow is indeed from the Tang Dynasty.

Edited September 24, 2014 by niektb

[wolflance]

Just quoting from the same link:

But then again, Wu Gang Che would be a more proper name for our Arcuballista/Siege Crossbow.

Agreed. But I imagine Wu Gang Che as something similar to a Carroballista though. It is described as 'covered and roofted' (whatever that mean).

Quoted from wikipedia:

Wei's army unexpectedly encountered Chanyu Yizhixie's main forces, who was waiting in anticipation of ambushing the Han army. Despite being significantly outnumbered and fatigued after the long journey, Wei was able to counter Xiongnu's cavalry charge with archery defense created by heavy-armored chariots arranged in ring formations, which was reinforced with cavalry counteroffensives.

One of the earliest examples of using conjoined wagons as fortification is described in the Chinese historical record Book of Han. During the 119 BC Battle of Mobei of the Han–Xiongnu War, the famous Han general Wei Qing used armored wagons known as "Wu Gang Wagon" (武剛車) in ring formations to neutralise the Xiongnu's cavalry charges, before launching a counteroffensive which overran the nomads.

The "heavy-armored chariots/wagon" in question refers to Wu Gang Che.

Another instance of Wagon fort and repeating crossbow:

Li Ling's troops encountered the Chanyu's main forces upon arrival at Altay Mountains, and was quickly encircled by 30,000 cavalry between two mountains. With no supply and reinforcement (Li thought there was no need), Li ordered his troops to use the wagons as cover and form up for battle. With a large advantage in numbers, the Xiongnu rashly attacked Li Ling's forces front-on, only to suffer heavy casualties under Han troop's crossbow barrage and the subsequent pursuit. The Chanyu then summoned 80,000 reinforcement troops, forcing Li Ling to battle hard while retreating into a valley, suffering significant casualties. Li Ling then found that his troopers were low in both morale and energy, leading him to search and kill many women secretly hidden in the wagons, who were serving as prostitutes for his soldiers. Li's forces then battled Xiongnu for another day, killing 3,000 enemies. He then retreated southeast for the next 4 to 5 days into a large reed swamp, where they managed to survive a fire attack. The Chanyu then sent his own son to command the pursuit, only to suffer further casualties when Li Ling's forces took refuge in a forest and repelled the attack with their repeating crossbows and melee combat. Up to this point, the Chanyu began to suspect that Li Ling was planning to draw them into an ambush close to the Han border, but decided to intensify the attacks as he considered it humiliating not able to defeat such as small forces.

This time Wu Gan Che was not explicitly mentioned.

Edited September 24, 2014 by wolflance

[wolflance]

Darn, I seems to have overlooked the Shoufa Shouling Shi San Pian , posted by Lion.Kanzen in his first paragraph.

Now we definitely have something concrete about the Western Han Dynasty stone thrower . The jí chē （耤車）. The Chinese character jí "耤" is synonymous with "藉" , although pronounced differently. The jiè chē 藉车 is mentioned in Mozi as a defensive weapon, which throws buckets of burning charcoal. Although named "车 (cart)", it is an immobile weapon.

Edited September 25, 2014 by wolflance

[wolflance]

Iron battering ram heads (left), Three Kingdom period. The lump of iron on the right is some sort of nail used to reinforce / increase the weight of the (battering ram's ) log.

Repost here - Fragment of a Han Dynasty zhuan she ji 转射机 (revolving shooting machine), basically moveable arrowslit.

Edited September 27, 2014 by wolflance

[wolflance]

I stumbled upon this drawing of a Three Kingdoms period siege tower called Jing Lan (井阑) which I think is drawn by some Japanese .

This design is more primitive and less effective than the hide-covered lv gong che 吕公车, but then again it is much closer to the timeframe of this mod (Current siege tower is from Ming Dynasty after all).

The only description of this weapon is that it is used by Zhuge Liang, its height and its purpose: A several hundred chi (尺) siege tower use to shoot over fortified wall (or defenders on said wall). No mentions of any hide covering, no mentions of multiple floor either.

The name "Jing Lan" suggests this weapon is similar in shape to a wood-lined water well, so I deduce the Japanese interpretation is feasible.

The Japanese interpret Chong Che (冲车) not as battering rams, but another type of siege tower. It is very very confusing .

Edited October 29, 2014 by wolflance

[Stan`]

If you find some let me know.

[auron2401]

While the technology certainly existed, Han army never used stone-thrower as siege weapon until Three Kingdoms period, AFAIK.

If the technology existed

it WAS used, regardless of how often.

[wolflance]

If the technology existed

it WAS used, regardless of how often.

Not necessary true. Technology can become lost, phased out because it is incompatible with the current method of warfare, mothballed for economic or other reasons, or evolve into/replaced by another, better technology.

For example, ge halberd evolved into ji halberd, iron replaced bronze, roman gladius being superseded by spatha, and lorica segmentata being phased out after 3rd century.

Han Dynasty likely phased out stone-throwers because their main adversary was nomadic Xiongnu. Heavy siege equipment will slow down the army, making them vulnerable to ambush and raids, there isn't many trees lying in the desert and grasslands to build one on the spot, Xiongnu being nomadic meaning very few permanent settlements for them to lay siege, and in the rare instance when the Han army DID lay siege on Xiongnu, they burned everything down and took the fortified city in two days with overwhelming numbers, without resorting to siege engine.

Towards the end of Han Dynasty (Three Kingdoms period), the Chinese were warring among themselves again, and siege warfare become necessary once more. Thus the resurgence of stone-thrower and other siege engine.

Edited October 28, 2014 by wolflance

[wolflance]

Artist's rendition of the Han Dynasty Great Wall and Signaling Tower, as well as defensive traction trebuchet (I think). From Osprey's The Greet Wall of China BC 221 - AD 1644.

Very few Han-era fortification walls survives to present day, so any visual reference is good reference.

Edited December 1, 2014 by wolflance

[wolflance]

(China) Artist's rendition of the Fortress of Ju Yan, based on the surviving ruins. It seems to me that this fortress wall did not have battlement/crenellation...

Edited November 30, 2014 by wolflance

[Ayakashi]

I wonder how'd people would feel to have signalling towers like those that provided signals for the the great wall as a unique structure to the Han faction. They'd basically act like mini fortresses that you can build in neutral territory, can garrison & heal units but can't train units. Historically they certainly did provide for a defensive system as well as a front for attack and expansion along with the early great walls.

Edited December 1, 2014 by Ayakashi

[wolflance]

I wonder how'd people would feel to have signalling towers like those that provided signals for the the great wall as a unique structure to the Han faction. They'd basically act like mini fortresses that you can build in neutral territory, can garrison & heal units but can't train units. Historically they certainly did provide for a defensive system as well as a front for attack and expansion along with the early great walls.

I definitely would like to see that!

I hope they can act like the Sensor Tower from StarCraft 2, but that will involve a lot of coding (I guess).

[niektb]

Another unique building sounds good!

What would it look like?

[wolflance]

Another unique building sounds good!

What would it look like?

You can check my picture on #19

[niektb]

Hmm, that doesn't really match with our building style, does it?