Design and balance - Discussion thread !

[iNcog]

OK so this thread is the "official" "I think something is imbalanced, here's why" thread. I made this thread because discussing each issue individually would probably clutter up the forums.

Basically, if you think that something is imbalanced or if something in the game is broken, you can post it in this thread and everyone can agree, or disagree and at very least we can discuss it. You can discuss imbalance which is specific to a Civ or a unit ("oh I think Nubian archers are too expensive and need a buff") or you can discuss game design ("I think Romans should get Siege Engines in the first phase"). Discussion is always what leads to the evolution of ideas and thoughts. Remember that.

If enough people agree that what's being discussed is indeed imbalanced, I'll add it to the OP. This way the thread can serve as a quick reference as to what the community thinks is imbalanced for the coders.

This is not a bug discussion thread, so we don't need to hear about the phalanx bug and all of that.

[iNcog]

I'll start for example, with an easy example that's already been discussed, this is just to give an idea of what the thread is about.

Skirm Cav (or Jav cav) shouldn't be available in Age 1, since you can make 8 skirm-cav at the start of the game and you can then pick off almost any unit in one shot before the opponent can do anything. Given their range, their attack and their mobility, you can't do anything about a skirm-cav rush to deal with it efficiently. Except perhaps doing your own skirm-cav rush. This is silly. I think that all ranged cav in age 1 should be replaced with melee cav so that spearmen and CCs can deal with any rush easily. This would be much less broken than the current skirm-cav rush.

[auron2401]

Or you can just do this.

http://i.imgur.com/ZahrAPU.png

Or if you are feeling extreme

http://i.imgur.com/irIDP1c.png

Excuse me for using the celts as an example, but i think what i did there was obvious.

Melee cav instead of skirm cav at the civ centre. so if you want to do skirm cav rushes, you can just fork out a few more bucks in for a quick barracks/stable, but it doesnt remove the possibility of them.

Edited June 9, 2014 by auron2401

[iNcog]

Well between forking out 300 resources for a barracks and 1600 resources to age up there's a huge difference. I still kind of prefer having to age-up to get to skirm-cav since they're still excellent raiding units. It's actually silly at how good they are at raiding, 8 of them can one shot most units and that includes villagers. Even if you can't make them from CCs, you can still just make a barracks and get skirm-cav slightly later. eh, I don't like it. personally, I don't like it. if you get skirm cav when you age you get an extra incentive to age as well. i feel only basic units should be available in age 1.

regardless of anything skirm cav still need a ranged counter

[Lion.Kanzen]

Well between forking out 300 resources for a barracks and 1600 resources to age up there's a huge difference. I still kind of prefer having to age-up to get to skirm-cav since they're still excellent raiding units. It's actually silly at how good they are at raiding, 8 of them can one shot most units and that includes villagers. Even if you can't make them from CCs, you can still just make a barracks and get skirm-cav slightly later. eh, I don't like it. personally, I don't like it. if you get skirm cav when you age you get an extra incentive to age as well. i feel only basic units should be available in age 1.

regardless of anything skirm cav still need a ranged counter

is excessive for some maps. Mythos ruler do a little adjustment to cavalry skirmisher ( attack).

[iNcog]

how is the skirm cav rush map dependent?

[Lion.Kanzen]

how is the skirm cav rush map dependent?

I see the video, I see how you defeat the Ptolemies, first archers are bad against all javeliners p, second the other player don't expect the rush and in this early phase haven't properly defense as walls towers, can build outpost and use as towers but is impossible with few units, the pezhetaroi( pikemen) never can catch the units.

So the balance is not only attack value, is speed and very effective. Against an attack performed by the Ai player isn't a problem to defeat this rush.

[agentx]

I think, balance is one of the most important content the game provides. An unbalanced game can completely destroy game experience. However discussing this has a subjective component: If player lacks a specific tactic the game can just appear unbalanced. And of course any opponent aware of missing tactics exploits that. Therefore a discussion can only be fruitful if everything is on the table and known to everybody participating.

So, IMHO, the real question is: How could balance be presented by numbers so that imbalance gets visible in an objective way?

[Lion.Kanzen]

I think, balance is one of the most important content the game provides. An unbalanced game can completely destroy game experience. However discussing this has a subjective component: If player lacks a specific tactic the game can just appear unbalanced. And of course any opponent aware of missing tactics exploits that. Therefore a discussion can only be fruitful if everything is on the table and known to everybody participating.

So, IMHO, the real question is: How could balance be presented by numbers so that imbalance gets visible in an objective way?

For me counter tactics, the gameplay base is Aok , you have cavalry light(scout) and heavy( knight) I said before a simply citizen soldier with a knife. And great range of LOS.

This for replace cavalry skirmisher in early game.

[iNcog]

I see the video, I see how you defeat the Ptolemies, first archers are bad against all javeliners p, second the other player don't expect the rush and in this early phase haven't properly defense as walls towers, can build outpost and use as towers but is impossible with few units, the pezhetaroi( pikemen) never can catch the units.

So the balance is not only attack value, is speed and very effective. Against an attack performed by the Ai player isn't a problem to defeat this rush.

The problem is that you shouldn't have to build towers (which are broken anyway btw) to defend against someone who made no more than 8 units. Defender's advantage >should< be more than enough to deal with a rush that comes in at 3 minutes, especially since your harvesters are technically infantry units which can also fight. If actual military units, with defender's advantage and a strong building like the CC can't fend off a rush, then that rush is broken.

Put it this way, if you rushed with 8 melee cav (sword or spear), would the rush be as effective? The answer is "no".

^There's your problem right there

[hollth]

The one macro balance design I would like is to have each phase more discrete from each other.

[Oimat]

hollth : what do you mean ?

[RoekeloosNL]

^ I think he means like Stone age, Iron age Golden age... but i could be wrong

[Loki1950]

More likely the differences between village,town city phases in game.

Enjoy the Choice

[hollth]

I meant have more differences between the village, town and city phase.

I feel like it should be more of a hard transition from economy -> map expansion -> conquest. I feel like its a bit more a continuum rather than discrete steps. I think it would create a better cadence and have improved clarity for the aim of each phase.

[Lion.Kanzen]

I meant have more differences between the village, town and city phase.

I feel like it should be more of a hard transition from economy -> map expansion -> conquest. I feel like its a bit more a continuum rather than discrete steps. I think it would create a better cadence and have improved clarity for the aim of each phase.

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