0 A.d. Borders And Boundries?

[Ulysses S Griffin]

oh ok cool:) that will be interesting if it works

[RF_Gandalf]

Some comments about the 'border' system -

The idea of borders sounds like it could add some interesting elements to gameplay. I always loved conquering teritory after territory in Risk! Borders of countries are a very real thing, and I think we should use them in a life-like way. I don't know if I favor the idea of using the borders in the proposed way to counter rushing. First, having units slowly lose life points over time just because they crossed an arbitrary line before an arbitrary timer expires, when there is no enemy to oppose them, seems very artificial, un-life-like, contrived. The only purpose for this is to prevent rushing...but many players like to rush, it is an important part of most RTS games. I think that there should be focus on making rushing slower or harder to do early on in other ways, less artificial.

Could there be some feature whereby you have to make and transport a 'supply train' along with your troops any time you cross borders to attack? This could slow the attack rate somewhat - a defender would not have to have this in order to use a military force. If your supply train gets destroyed, the attacking troops are then penalized in some way - e.g. forced retreat after a short period?, loss of morale?, loss of attack or armor status? - slow loss of life points? This has the advantage of being realistic, gives a defender a target within his own borders during an attack, makes an invader prepare for an attack (slowing a rush a bit?) and have to array his attacking force more carefully to defend his supply train also.

Just an idea...feedback appreciated!

[Ornlu]

One way to prevent lame rushes is to have a option to make villagers into milita. They won't gather resources as quickly but they will have a small +attack and hp. It should take like 30 seconds to change them.

Or you could just be able to create milita in your "town center". Milita should only have that + attack and hp bonus in own borders, so that you won't do milita rushes.

Another thing, maybe you should be able to research a technology named "patriotism", that makes soldiers stronger, while they are within own borders.

And buildings built in enemy borders should work 20% slower, be built 20% slower and have 20% less hp.

[Marcus Petrius]

Using a supply train would be a great idea, but it should be different for the civs. Some civs might have faster chariots or whatever you need for the supply.

You could also make it so that when the train is caught, the food 'in' it, is transferred to the stockpile of the defender(?).

[The_Avenger]

And you just described RoN nearly perfectly. We should have something different for 0AD, though... why copy RoN's method 100%? It's not like it was awesome.

[Marcus Petrius]

I've never played RoN, so maybe I just have great ideas (?)

[Ulysses S Griffin]

it would be way easier to discuss this topic with pictures:)

[Marcus Petrius]

I meant something along the lines of this:

The blue blocks are carts. Of course there shouldn't be just one cart that goes with the soldiers, there should be a real train. I would choose to guard the train with some small units, but that's totally up to the player of course.

[Wijitmaker]

The supply unit was implimented in a game called Celtic Kings. Have you guys ever played that? Though realistic I found the more frustrating than anything. It was just one more thing to manage when your trying to wage war.

You guys should download the demo and play it before you decide if you like supply units or not

http://haemimontgames.com/celtickings/downloads.html

If the supply unit didn't have to be in a certain radius of units and instead only in the 'territory', then I think it might work.. but eh.. to much hassle this gammer

[ice]

Have any of you ever played 'Risk' the board game?  If you guys were going to 'computerize' that game, how would you do it?  Could you do it in a real-time fashion?  Would it be enjoyable to play?

That reminds me of the Total War games, which were awesome. Are you talking about a sort of campaign map within which you take over individual provinces? That would be totally awesome, to the max.

[Ulysses S Griffin]

the only way that i think that borders should be expanded is through building military buildings to protect borders, that would seriously count for some great sieges.

[Marcus Petrius]

How would you besiege a line of towers not connected by walls?

[Ulysses S Griffin]

i didnt mean expanding borders with towers and basic military buildings, but with forts and citidels....maybe i should have made that clearer before

[Marcus Petrius]

Sorry, just nitpicking.

[Mythos_Ruler]

I agree. Borders should expand with the use of these buildings: Civil Centers, Fortress-Class buildings, and Wonder-Class buildings (if we decide to use these).

I think walls should only be able to be built within a certain radius of Civil Centers.

[Marcus Petrius]

But palisades or ditches should be buildable outside too. (Within your own borders)

[Wijitmaker]

I think walls should only be able to be built within a certain radius of Civil Centers.

[Tonto_Icy_Tripod]

Really, anything having to do with supply trains/wagons/units/whatevers is pretty difficult to make work. If you have to have a whole train, it'll be stupidly easy to destroy it unless it's heavily defended, but then how will you survive at the real battle? Compare it to walls. It's much like a wall that you have to constantly defend. If you wanna defend, you don't attack. If you attack, you don't defend. Here you're forced to do both at the same time. It'll lead to a game where you can't possibly break a defence without having twice the army

If you're having a wagon, then it'd work like siege in aok/c. You simply rush to get the siege, then fight the army. By killing the supply first, you will gradually get a stronger army. You would need really strong wagons to avoid that...

You were talking about just having a supply wagon at all. Then what about multiple fronts? I'd just find a clear spot in enemy territory, park my wagon there and voila, I can fight there just as if at home then, which would in fact defeat the entire purpose of the wagon...

Also, raiding would be completely unaffected by this. Assuming it'll still be possible to raid in 0ad of course.

How about this instead of supply stuff:

When you have an army in opponent territory, you can build in enemy territory, which will allow you to acquire it too. The radius in which you can build will be dependant upon the size of the army (could work like fenris wolves in aom). It would also have to start at the edge of your own borders. That'd mean you couldn't just walk to the back of the other guy's base and build a fort or something. You'd have to actually push forward from your own base.

In conjunction with this, you could make it so that units lose health when in enemy territory. Thus, when fighting you'd also build right behind to gain the territory you're fighting in, and wouldn't be fighting penalized.

Not sure about the realism, but I think it'd be playable at least....

[Marcus Petrius]

That way there would be huge string of buildings behind your troops toward the place of battle or then enemy town.

Doesn't sound too good to me.

[Mythos_Ruler]

How about, instead of units losing health while in enemy territory (RON), their rate of attack drops? To make an analogy to real life: Those soldiers defending their own country usually fight harder than the invaders.

To go even further: Troops in their own territory have an attack bonus (like 5% or something). Troops in "no man's land" territory revert to normal attack rates. Troops in enemy territory show declining attack rates (like -0.01 per minute or something).

One can counter the enemy territory attrition on attack rates by bringing a merchant cart along with one's army (ala RON). This does not negate the defender's attack bonus, however.

[Ulysses S Griffin]

i never really liked that "better in your own country" thing, too complicated and constricting

[Mythos_Ruler]

I don't see how it would be very complicated. LOL

[Ulysses S Griffin]

i mean that what if all players wont be offensive because they are waiting for the enemy to come to them because they want the combat bonus? players will want kill off the offending team with the combat bonus, so that they can make a counter offencive without any troubles because the enemy has no soldiers left and is trying to rebuild soldiers, but he cant rebuild cause half his city is already destroyed from the counter offensive?

*gasp*(need air after that speech )

[Tonto_Icy_Tripod]

What you're saying is that the offensive player will lose his army, the defender will use what is left of his army (can't be too much or the bonus would've been too large) to destroy a large part of the offensive player's base. During this whole time the offensive player has created no new units at all. He didn't even replenish his first army, but sent them all to die straight away...

I see your point, but I claim that the game wouldn't be played so statically that such a scenario would happen

[Mythos_Ruler]

Well, plus you have to go on the offensive in order to gain more resources, kills, points, whatever.