Special Units and Heroes

[Lion.Kanzen]

It can not be realistic, is not total war Game style. Is a RTS more simple to gaming but more fun.

[Radagast.]

It can not be realistic, is not total war Game style.

I thought 0AD was all about realism. You are confusing me now. The countering system (e.g. cavalry 2.5x vs. infantry) was extra added due to realism.

The only 'new' of my post is to rework the armour system if this 'countering' really is to be taken out of 0AD. (as mentioned somewhere in the IRC log)

As a replacement so to say. Just like in reality:

The crossbow archer can't shoot 200m far.

0AD also does not have a system that says, that close-up archers hit infantry in 100m distance with 2x force, 150m with 1x force, >200m with 0x force and so on.

You see?

It's not natural to introduce an artifical system for this (by defining in the XML that this archer hits the target in 200m distance with 0.1x force, that target in _m distance with _ force. etc..).

That's why it's not so nice to have the countering system, too: A lot of micro -- this time in the game balancing.

That's why Mythos_Ruler wants to get rid of it.

I can't see what impossible new I said in my post again. The hero arguments were just supporting the current system like it already his: namely restricting the amount of heroes available.

Edited April 15, 2014 by Hephaestion

[Lion.Kanzen]

I thought 0AD was all about realism. You are confusing me now. The countering system (e.g. cavalry 2.5x vs. infantry) was extra added due to realism.The only 'new' of my post is to rework the armour system if this 'countering' really is to be taken out of 0AD. (as mentioned somewhere in the IRC log)As a replacement so to say. Just like in reality:The crossbow archer can't shoot 200m far.0AD also does not have a system that says, that close-up archers hit infantry in 100m distance with 2x force, 150m with 1x force, >200m with 0x force and so on.You see?It's not natural to introduce an artifical system for this (by defining in the XML that this archer hits the target in 200m distance with 0.1x force, that target in _m distance with _ force. etc..).That's why it's not so nice to have the countering system, too: A lot of micro -- this time in the game balancing.That's why Mythos_Ruler wants to get rid of it.I can't see what impossible new I said in my post again. The hero arguments were just supporting the current system like it already his: namely restricting the amount of heroes available.

May be that for second part. New battle system.

[David_J_Rogers]

Either or, I still think the Heroes should have some characteristics that shift the tide of gameplay when a player versus another player, or multiple players/ AI face off. Maybe not too powerful to the point of where a Hero with an army can single handedly beat an army without a hero - I still think the gameplay should be balanced in that way that strategy must be emphasized.

Perhaps when a hero dies, the army will lose a sense of morale at their fallen leader in game, and will try to flee or have their hp reduced by a percentage. That could be a game changer. I don't know if that could be correctly implemented though.

Edited April 17, 2014 by David_J_Rogers

[hhyloc]

Heroes with aura are nice, though I think if done right heroes with abilities (like in Warcraft for example) wouln't be so bad. Ideally the abilities should be realistic ,not the 1-hit-kill-several kind but a rally shout and battle horn ability based on real historical evidences would be nice. This way heroes would have a more noticeable impact on battle but only when his troop is around.

This give me a thought, we can have army-orient heroes and solo-orient heroes. The former is generally weaker but have greater boost ability to his army and the later is more of a super-soldier, able to single-handedly kill dozen units (though not half the enemy army of course).

And I think Rogers' suggestion about morale drop when a commanding hero is slain is nice, not sure how should we implement this. I don't think reduced hp or trying to flee would be good, the former unrealistic and the later seems meta-gamey to me, perhaps a slight penalty to attack stat? This penalty will be removed after a certain time (kinda like a debuff) to simulate the army regrouped.

Edited April 17, 2014 by hhyloc

[Lion.Kanzen]

Heroes with aura are nice, though I think if done right heroes with abilities (like in Warcraft for example) wouln't be so bad. Ideally the abilities should be realistic ,not the 1-hit-kill-several kind but a rally shout and battle horn ability based on real historical evidences would be nice. This way heroes would have a more noticeable impact on battle but only when his troop is around.

This give me a thought, we can have army-orient heroes and solo-orient heroes. The former is generally weaker but have greater boost ability to his army and the later is more of a super-soldier, able to single-handedly kill dozen units (though not half the enemy army of course).

And I think Rogers' suggestion about morale drop when a commanding hero is slain is nice, not sure how should we implement this. I don't think reduced hp or trying to flee would be good, the former unrealistic and the later seems meta-gamey to me, perhaps a slight penalty to attack stat? This penalty will be removed after a certain time (kinda like a debuff) to simulate the army regrouped.

yeah, but you need think in the mods too. Is important give open some system in order use the game to be easily to Mod. And this without lose optimization and performance that why is important the devs give some tools or option even if in game are off to mods in their projects only turn on this features. The Moba is a genre very popular or version mixes the RPG experience.

[hhyloc]

Yeah having the ability to mod things in and out is nice, the suggestion I made above does not have to be hard-coded though. I don't know about programming, but going for moddability and "modular" codebase seems like a natural path for OSS like 0 A.D.

[David_J_Rogers]

A debuff is actually a good idea. Maybe the debuff could also apply to other heroes in the area making their abilities a little debuffed as well including their Aura-effects?

[oshron]

some generalized special abilities would probably be good, too. for example, in the first Empire Earth, all of the "Strategist" Heroes (specific examples included William the Conqueror and Alexander the Great) had a battlecry power that let them lower the morale of enemies in an area. it was a pretty useful feature. those same types of heroes also had the ability to heal allied units (and much faster than a hospital or medic could in-game), but that kind of power would probably be better relegated to heroes which are/were specifically known to have such talents in actual history, or otherwise ones which aren't as military-focused. iirc, Themistocles is planned as an Athenian hero, and he's not really the most famous military commander (he DID defend Athens with his sea wall, but whatever) so a healing power might work well for him

another feature that heroes had in Empire Earth was that all the heroes had a healing factor. in the context of 0ad, it could be justified with a rare divergence from actual history in that many legendary heroes were regarded as...well, legendary heroes who therefore had extraordinary abilities

[hhyloc]

Agree with the healing factor, as long as it's not overly powerful I think it would be nice for heroes to auto-heal, thus you can keep them on the field longer with some careful play.

[Lion.Kanzen]

Agree with the healing factor, as long as it's not overly powerful I think it would be nice for heroes to auto-heal, thus you can keep them on the field longer with some careful play.

Actually are a teach in the SVN that let auto healing for all units.

[oshron]

Agree with the healing factor, as long as it's not overly powerful I think it would be nice for heroes to auto-heal, thus you can keep them on the field longer with some careful play.

pretty much, like just automatically healing, like, 1% of their total health every three seconds or so while idle. especially since, iirc, heroes are irreplaceable in-game, so you want to be able to save them more easily. depending on their reputation, some heroes could have greater healing factor than others (for instance, if one iconically took four or five arrows to the chest and kept going without missing a beat, then they get a significantly better healing factor)

Edited April 23, 2014 by oshron