helens factions

[newcivs]

i think that in A16 we should put another faction "thebes", already exists a simple stub but non-playable, i think that er must copy&paste hellenic actors, "with an only change, thebian shields"

and about macedonians i think that we can put a technology called "diadochi reforms"

the diadochi reforms bring 2 new units:

* milita thureos "cheap and weak soldiers"

* towered elephants "millitary diadochi symbol"

Edited February 10, 2014 by newcivs

[Lion.Kanzen]

Theban*

[Lion.Kanzen]

i think that in A16 we should put another faction "thebes", already exists a simple stub but non-playable, i think that er must copy&paste hellenic actors, "with an only change, thebian shields"

and about macedonians i think that we can put a technology called "diadochi reforms"

the diadochi reforms bring 2 new units:

* milita thureos "cheap and weak soldiers"

* towered elephants "millitary diadochi symbol"

you want Elephants with Macedonians?

Ok may be the tech can be not name as Dadochi Reform, may be Antigonid. Because we're more effective to rule, see Antipater Dynasty only was about 20years hold the rule of Macedon.

Edited February 10, 2014 by Lion.Kanzen

[newcivs]

you want Elephants with Macedonians?

Ok may be the tech can be not name as Dadochi Reform, may be Antigonid. Because we're more effective to rule, see Antipater Dynasty only was about 20years hold the rule of Macedon.

yes, i want a technology with same behavior of iphicratean reforms "antigonid reform", unlock elephants and milita thureos

[Sighvatr]

So give Athens and Sparta phalangiates?

[Lion.Kanzen]

yes, i want a technology with same behavior of iphicratean reforms "antigonid reform", unlock elephants and milita thureos

Si pero no estoy en contra de reforma si no del nombre, Antigona para macedonian, felicito tu idea.

Por q elephsnt es y de donde los acataron dame fuentes.

English. Is ask this guy about that idea of reform, it's not bad, but Elephants? Macedonia(Succesors )

Edited February 10, 2014 by Lion.Kanzen

[Lion.Kanzen]

So give Athens and Sparta phalangiates?

Yeah more reforms like Seleucids, even Romans.

[Mythos_Ruler]

Maybe a "reform" tech for the Macedonians could be called "Amphipolis Decree" instead, which is an actual thing late in the Macedonian kingdom. Though, I don't think the Macedonians ever actually used elephants in battle.

[oshron]

i doubt the Macedonians under Alexander did; i'm not well-versed on Macedonian history, but i wouldn't put it too far out there for the post-Alexander Macedonians such as the Seleucids to have used elephants. whether they used them enough to warrant their inclusion is another thing entirely. if nothing else, could be some single-player games where the Macedonians have access to some irreplaceable elephants for just that scenario

[Lion.Kanzen]

Even Romans uses elephants but they don't need it.

[Mythos_Ruler]

i doubt the Macedonians under Alexander did; i'm not well-versed on Macedonian history, but i wouldn't put it too far out there for the post-Alexander Macedonians such as the Seleucids to have used elephants. whether they used them enough to warrant their inclusion is another thing entirely. if nothing else, could be some single-player games where the Macedonians have access to some irreplaceable elephants for just that scenario

The Seleucids are their own civ and get access to War Elephants.

[Prodigal Son]

Alexander got elephants during his invasion of India, succesors maintained them even after his death and got new ones as well. Even the factions that held Macedonia proper had elephants in their armies, at least in the first 6-7 decades after Alexanders death. Some brought from the east, some from Egypt (when the ptolemies had one of their own princes as king of Macedon for a short while), some captured in battles against Pyrrhus of Epirus. They were used in the fights for the throne of Macedon, against the Galatian invasion and against some Greek city-states. Macedonian army could also get many reforms, including ranged heavy cavalry, thureophoroi, royal peltasts in place of hypaspists, late pikemen with more armor and goes on. I could provide more detail if it's something desired.

The Romans used elephants occasionally, mostly allied Numidians (and once Pergamenes), but I don't think they even had them in the core roman army.

Sparta should get back it's phalangites, I'd say as a late game reform, they didn't appear until short before it's end as a power. Both they and Athens could also get some Thureophoroi at the late game. On Athens having pikemen I've read several debates, no direct source, I'd say no then, let's not have every Greek/Hellenistic faction have pikes.

[Mythos_Ruler]

If you could, could you list the battles where the Macedonians (not the Seleucids or Ptolemies or Pergamenes or Epirotes) used elephants? Just for my own curiosity.

[Prodigal Son]

Sure:) Some quick ones:

• Siege of Megara, 266BC. Antigonos Gonatas' elephants routed by flaming pigs (when researching silly rome total war units teaches history:p). I remember he also had elephants earlier against Pyrrhus, he lost some of them to him in a mountain pass battle, while he captured some of Pyrrhus elephants in return after his death in the Siege of Argos.
• Ptolemy Keraunos, as king of Macedon, was killed in battle with the Galatians in 279BC while riding his elephant. It's possible that he was the one who gave some of his elephants to Pyrrhus, while Antigonus Gonatas got the rest of them by succeeding him on the Macedonian Throne.
• If we add early Antigonids (Antigonos Monopthalmos, Demetrios Poliorketes) who controlled Macedon or parts of it during the successor wars, the instances of Macedonian war elephants become quite frequent. If we add to that other generals who commanded parts of Alexander's original army while not controlling Macedon (but not being Ptolemaics or Seleucids, just contenders for the Macedonian throne or champions of some contender) such as Perdikas, Eumenes of Kardia and others, it becomes extremely often.

Edit: I'm not suggesting Elephants as a regular unit for Macedon, as it's not native to the region anyway. Could become trainable with an import tech, and possibly with a build limit as well. The same could work for the Persians.

Edited February 11, 2014 by Prodigal Son

[Mythos_Ruler]

I could see maybe a tech that makes a one-time purchase of war elephants.

[Prodigal Son]

I could see maybe a tech that makes a one-time purchase of war elephants.

We've discussed this in the past as well. Imo one-time major power boost is not a good idea. It can make for too much strength or loss of a one time chance depending on timing, external circumstances (other player actions) and player skill. See the titans on AOM, or the unit shipments in AOE3 for what I mean. An unlock tech and a build limit should work better.

[Lion.Kanzen]

We've discussed this in the past as well. Imo one-time major power boost is not a good idea. It can make for too much strength or loss of a one time chance depending on timing, external circumstances (other player actions) and player skill. See the titans on AOM, or the unit shipments in AOE3 for what I mean. An unlock tech and a build limit should work better.

that was one most mistakes with AOE 3. I play the Saturday with Asians factions and very limited. But with mercenaries I haven't see it as a real problem.

[Prodigal Son]

that was one most mistakes with AOE 3. I play the Saturday with Asians factions and very limited. But with mercenaries I haven't see it as a real problem.

Yeah while it is interesting to get troops from different sources other than training, this way is specially tricky to balance and for me it can't balance at all. Even if you have something like that exactly the same way/with the same power for all factions (like the AOM titans), you have timing and irreversibility thrown in besides cost and power.

Edited February 11, 2014 by Prodigal Son

[newcivs]

So give Athens and Sparta phalangiates?

yeah!

[Mythos_Ruler]

Yeah while it is interesting to get troops from different sources other than training, this way is specially tricky to balance and for me it can't balance at all. Even if you have something like that exactly the same way/with the same power for all factions (like the AOM titans), you have timing and irreversibility thrown in besides cost and power.

I'd rather just have the Macedonians represent the Macedonian army of Alexander's time.

[Rodmar]

i think that in A16 we should put another faction "thebes", already exists a simple stub but non-playable, i think that er must copy&paste hellenic actors, "with an only change, thebian shields"

For a Theban faction, you should have Epaminondas as a hero, and the Sacred Batallion (ἱερὸς λόχος / hiéros lokhos) as a champion unit.

Don't forget they got hegemony for nearly two decades in the 4th century, roughly between the Spartan rule and the third Sacred War (and the submission to Philip of Macedonia).

Edited February 12, 2014 by Rodmar

[Prodigal Son]

I'd rather just have the Macedonians represent the Macedonian army of Alexander's time.

Since most factions could use more upgrades/techs/reforms, since historical changes are the most interesting way to introduce them in game, and as it seems like Romans get Marian reforms, Seleucids get their own (although I'd prefer those slightly different), Athens gets Iphicratian Reforms (I've also thought of better ways for this after some reading), Sparta could get pike phalanx/land reforms, Persians could get Kardakes etc, I can't see why we can't have Macedonians initially represent Alexander's army and then have reforms for them as well. Alexander's lifespan was small, so this could be restrictive compared to most factions.

I'm in favor of expanding on such ideas for all factions. There are many possibilities around it for new gameplay and better historical representation. I certainly get that a mix of easier balancing, personal choices and available time restrictions can work against it though.

[Lion.Kanzen]

We need remember we can have a reinforcement system. We can train irregular mercenaries from a "deck" before start a match than a have elephants in Macedon faction, roman uses too, in many battles after defeat Carthage and previously Marian Reform.

I feel the game have over types of units Ptolemy faction have more units than Romans. Even in type. (Archers, Elephants) be need limit this, like we do with Romans. I'm experiment playing AEO 3 . The older version of AOE haven't precise variance of units, they have the same for all civilization, we can remember even Choson in that game uses Legions or trireme representing visually and gameplay the real one unit.