Divide and Conquer (Roman Civ Suggestion)

[Prodigal Son]

I came up with an idea for the Romans, making them able to train units depending on the civs of their rivals in game. Say they face a Greek faction, they would get access to a (probably limited) number of different Greek units. They face Greeks and Persians, they get both Greek and Persian units.

It could work either as a tech unlocking those units at some existing building, or as an "embassy" building. If it works with embassy, then possibly the Carthaginian embassies could be renamed/changed to something like "Mercenary Camps".

It could replace their ability to convert with money if it's too much of a bonus making them overpowered, and to me it makes more sense than it, training/hiring allies instead of bribing in combat. And it's far more interesting.

Historically, using a faction's neighbors, usually of the same cultural group, against them, was a common practice, fueled by local rivalries or promises, the neighbors would often ally with an external power. The Romans were the ones who made by far the most of it though, and I can't imagine them conquering a unified Greece or Gaul without it, so I'm proposing it as a Roman Civ bonus.

Edited November 20, 2013 by Prodigal Son

[Lion.Kanzen]

We call this mini faction or mini cultures in the map. I think the trading between cultures don't be only resources can be knowledge and mercenaries.

[Prodigal Son]

We call this mini faction or mini cultures in the map. I think the trading between cultures don't be only resources can be knowledge and mercenaries.

I've read about mini factions etc, that's something different though.

[Lion.Kanzen]

http://www.wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=17430&hl=%2Bmini+%2Bfaction

I would include "native" or "mini-factions" as post-release free DLC (probably as part of our post-release patches, to sweeten the deal). And then I would only use them in scenarios and skirmish maps, so that they can be used judiciously and uniquely by the designer. I'd rather they be a "special" feature of some maps rather than something that's used all of the time in random maps and whatnot. They could also be useful in campaigns.

To make sure they are actually implemented, it is best to think of ways to include them without much extra programming. Try to think of things that we are going to include anyway, then just build on those. For instance, best to think of a way to use the planned 'capture' feature and integrate that into your plans instead of coming up with a whole-new way of doing things. This way, your pet feature (in this instance, mini-factions) is easier to implement, making it more likely to be implemented. Just my advice.

I've read about mini factions etc, that's something different though.

this for match or Campaing mode?

[Prodigal Son]

I propose it as a general feature, meaning it's for every mode. Everything's up to the team though anyway:)

This wouldn't be for all civs, only for the Romans. And it's not based on the map (and minifactions set to it), but on the opponent you face.

Let's say you play the Romans, and I play the Athenians. You will be able to train some Hoplites, Peltasts and Prodromoi, representing the army of other Greek Cities who hated Athens and sided with the Romans, or ones who did so by superior Roman diplomacy.

Now, if I play the Persians for the next match, and you are still the Romans, you will be able to train Persian extra units instead of Greek. If at a third match another person joins in my team, and he takes the Athenians while I still have the Persians, you will be able to train both Greek and Persian units.

It wouldn't need much work, just already existing units and maybe some minor coding.

Edited November 20, 2013 by Prodigal Son

[NoMolester]

The cartaginians were more into that than the romans, and the game version of it is already implemented in the embassies. They had iberians, gauls, lybians, mauretanians, numidians, phoenicians and balearics into their armies.

It would take a lot of work because the computer would have to "sense" the other factions at the beggining of the game and "choose" the respective units.

You would have to re-create the parameters of the algorithm (not the algorithm itself) for every civilization ingame, including mauryans.

The romans would be extremely overpowered, having a huge array of units to choose in a 2x2 battle.

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

There could potentially be a limit to the way the bonus would work. It could perhaps go more along the lines of choosing merely a limited number of types based upon the amount of players in game.

[Prodigal Son]

The cartaginians were more into that than the romans, and the game version of it is already implemented in the embassies. They had iberians, gauls, lybians, mauretanians, numidians, phoenicians and balearics into their armies.

It would take a lot of work because the computer would have to "sense" the other factions at the beggining of the game and "choose" the respective units.

You would have to re-create the parameters of the algorithm (not the algorithm itself) for every civilization ingame, including mauryans.

The romans would be extremely overpowered, having a huge array of units to choose in a 2x2 battle.

- That's mercenaries, not divide and conquer. It could work in the other way I described if not embassies, or a completely new way.

- You might be right, it seems fairly simple to me but I have no coding knowledge.

- They wouldn't be extremely overpowered. They would get the civs most common types of only citizen soldiers, not champions. Let's say 3 (could be 2 or 4, but I'm settling for 1 each, infantry, cavalry, missile).

So we have (proposed units could change ofc, deppenting on how powerful we want to make the bonus)

Against Greek/Successor factions:

1) Hoplites - no big bonus, they have Triarii

2) Peltasts - same, they have Velites

3) Prodromoi - same, they have JavCav

Against Persians

1) Sparabara - no big bonus, they have Triarii

2) Archers - new unit for them

3) Median Cav? - they have JavCav

Against Britons/Gauls

1) Spearmen - no big bonus, they have Triarii

2) Slingers - new unit for them

3) Jav Cav? - they have JavCav

And goes on... it's easily doable in a way that they get from zero to very few new unit types. Making it a variable offer of slightly stronger or weaker (but cheaper) troops of existing types with a possible addition of a few new ones if we want to.

[Prodigal Son]

There could potentially be a limit to the way the bonus would work. It could perhaps go more along the lines of choosing merely a limited number of types based upon the amount of players in game.

This could be done as well. Or even limiting the bonus to one of the opponents' units. Might require extra coding though, so I'd suggest balancing it along the lines of my previous post.

Some interesting examples of this practice (by the Romans) and it's effectiveness in history:

• Battle of Zama. Numidian King Masinissa, former ally of the Carthaginians, fought for the Romans, giving them the cavalry superiority for the first time against Hannibal.
• 2nd Macedonian War. The Aetolian forces gave a fierce fight against the Macedonians during the Battle of Cynoscephalae. Numidian elephants routed the Macedonian left before it could take positions, leading to the Roman victory.
• Roman-Syrian War. The Pergamene and Rhodian fleets played the most decisive role in defeating the Seleucid ones for the Romans (and themselves as well, although it eventually led to Roman expansion eastwards and their absorption in the Roman realm, similarly to the fate of most Roman allies). At the decisive battle of Magnesia, the Pergamene right flank of the Roman army was the one that decided the outcome. While the roman left was routed by Antiochus' cavalry charge and combat in the middle was indecisive, the Pergamenes panicked the Seleucid scythed chariots who in turn fell upon the rest of the opposing Seleucid forces causing disorder. They then charged and eventually surrounded the Seleucid pikemen and elephants in the middle, as Antiochus failed to return and support them, trying to capture the roman camp. The Macedonians, recently defeated by the Romans in the 2nd Macedonian War, also fought for the Romans during this war, either cause they were forced to do so or to prevent Seleucid intervention in Greece.

• 3rd Macedonian War. Greek forces and most notably Thessalian Cavalry fought for the Romans in the battle of Callinicus. At Pydna there are again Greek forces and Numidian elephants fighting for the Romans.
• War Against Nabis. Romans and Achaeans fought together against the last ruler of an independent Sparta.
• Battle of Corinth. Pergamenes (and Cretan mercenaries) fought for the Romans against the Achaeans.
• The Gallic Wars. Caesar took advantage of the unstable situation with wars between the various tribes and also employed Gallic auxiliaries in his forces.
• Battle of the Nile. Caesar took part in Ptolemaic civil wars, eventually leading to roman occupation of the Ptolemaic Kingdom.

Edited November 20, 2013 by Prodigal Son