Germanic faction(s)

[greycat]

You wouldn't dare to say that there were no Celts outside of Strabo's Celtica.

They made it as far as Turkey which seems to be where they got the name Galatians. There is evidence that they were not the first people there though.

[Andrettin]

Remember I don't want to change the game. If we did have a Germanic faction I don't care if we don't call them Celtic.

But then what is the point? I thought the purpose of this thread was making suggestions on how a Germanic faction should be implemented in the game.

[greycat]

People keep talking to me about it...

Edited November 16, 2013 by greycat

[greycat]

Also there is so much we have wrong about the culture i.m.o.

[greycat]

The using terms like Gaul during the early period of the game seems out of place to me. It did not become called that until much later in game?

...and by Caesar no less...

Edited November 16, 2013 by greycat

[greycat]

Also Gauls does not work because the Celts weren't just in Gaul area during start of game. 500 BC puts major Celtic cities in Germany and surrounding areas.

Thanks for getting me back on topic b.t.w.

Edited November 16, 2013 by greycat

[greycat]

When Caesar divided the Germani and the Gauls he literally cut the ancient Celtic homeland in half.

Edited November 16, 2013 by greycat

[greycat]

Archeological sources and linguistics are the best tools we have, contrary to what one member in this thread may say. I wouldn't rely on genetics as much.

This is what archeology tells us.

Around 500 BCE another Iron Age culture emerged -- the La Tène. Carts were now two-wheeled chariots. Groups of extended families were organized in clans (tuatha). The La Tène Celts never really transcended the level of clan organization, and their forays outside the Celtic sphere were for wealth more than systematic territorial expansion. They defeated Rome in 387 BCE, they raided Delfi in 279 BCE, and in 278 BCE a group of Celtic mercenaries settled in Asia Minor (the Galatians). While the Celts were quickly Romanized on the continent, La Tène culture may have persisted in Ireland until as late as the fourth century CE. They were metalworkers in bronze, silver, and gold as well as iron. Their art influenced the Germanic and, to a lesser extent, the Classical world.

http://faculty.unlv.edu/jmstitt/Eng480/Celtic/LaTene.html

Edited November 16, 2013 by greycat

[Mythos_Ruler]

Their art influenced the Germanic and, to a lesser extent, the Classical world.

The article makes a clear distinction here between Germanic and La Tene cultures. That map you posted spans 500 years and multiple migrations and movements and likely takes into account evidence of trade goods and the like, e.g., if a Germanic site shows evidence of La Tene trade goods, then it was "influenced" by La Tene culture and therefor was part of its "sphere." That does not mean that the Germanics at these sites were Celts.

[greycat]

Edited November 16, 2013 by greycat

[greycat]

That does not mean that the Germanics at these sites were Celts.

I understand. There is evidence they used the sites though.

[greycat]

Celt
Latin Celtae, plural, from Greek Keltoi
First Known Use: 1550

Did we kwow what Celt meant in 1550 when we started using it?

Who are these Kelts that have no druids but philosophers?

(Titus Flavius Clemens, known as Clement of Alexandria, was a Christian theologian who taught at the Catechetical School of Alexandria. A convert to Christianity,
he was an educated man who was familiar with classical Greek philosophy and literature)
AD 260 - Clement of Alexandria’s Stromala I, xv, 71, 3 1 Thus philosophy, a science of the highest utility, flourished in antiquity among the barbarians, shedding its
light over the nations. And afterwards it came to Greece. First in its ranks were the pro-phets of the Egyptians ; and the Chaldeans among the Assyrians ; and the
Druids among the Gauls ; and the Samanaeans among the Bactrians; and the philosophers of the Kelts; and the Magi of the Persians.

(Cassius was a Roman consul and noted historian who wrote in Greek. AD 155 – 235)
Dio 39.47 The Rhine issues from the Celtic Alps, a little outside of Rhaetia, and proceeding westward, bounds Gaul and its inhabitants on the left, and the Germans
on theright, and finally empties into the ocean. This river has always down to the present time been considered the boundary, ever since these tribes gained their
different names; for very anciently both peoples dwelling on either side of the river were called Celts.

(Strabo, Greek geographer, philosopher and historian 64/63 BC – c. AD 24 .) Romans introduced the name Germani, because the Germanic tribes were the authentic
Celts. [authentic Galatians, γνησίους Γαλάτας]

Edited November 17, 2013 by greycat

[Rodmar]

A few words about the last map, just in case it might be used to devise the Germanic civilization.

I think it is largely outdated, mixing all the Proto-Germanic cultures in the same dark red one (and not accounting for the modern assumption that Germanic culture was less derived from the Danish Bronze Age as we thought). Also displaying tribe names in the same black colour, and the limes at its largest extension doesn't help. Although it accredits my posts, I'd rather dismiss it.

However, the second colour being really hard to spot on, I'll recall what we can see.

Until 100 B.C. the Germanic cultures is in contact with Volcae, Boii and Trans-rhenan Belgian.

During the first half of the 1st century B.C., the German come in the lower Rhine valley (Batavi, Frisii) and that's all. No Chatti yet. Where the hell are the Sicambri and all the Belgian's Germanii? (I mean, unless they are not counted as Germans by this map's maker). But even so, in other maps, Batavi and Frisii are not considered German so soon.

By the way, all the southern yellow areas are still Celtic, Pannonian (Illyric) and Scythian/Samartian areas in 300 A.D., while the northern ones are Sami, Uralic, Balto-Slavic and Samartian.

[greycat]

During the first half of the 1st century B.C., the German come in the lower Rhine valley (Batavi, Frisii) and that's all. No Chatti yet. Where the hell are the Sicambri and all the Belgian's Germanii? (I mean, unless they are not counted as Germans by this map's maker).

The sources I have seen state the the Belgae came during a much earlier migration. (Wikipedia "from at least the 3rd century BC") This would also explain why they are much more Celtic than the other Germanic tribes.

The map above is from Wikipedia. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Pre_Migration_Age_Germanic.png

Edited November 17, 2013 by greycat

[Rodmar]

Putzger, Historischer Atlas (1954), p. 24.

I was only reading this very map and what it says is : "all the southern yellow areas are still Celtic".

Provide another one, preferably more recent, and I'll try to read it as well.

I can't help myself.

[greycat]

Going back to the Cimbrian war (113–101 BC) Romes first contact with "Germanic" tribes the Cimbri and the Teutones. The current consensus is they were Germanic (perhaps Celtic) among modern scholars.

Edited November 19, 2013 by greycat

[greycat]

Here is my point. Germani and Teuton both are describing people who are Germanic (perhaps Celtic) in origin. I personally side with the Greeks and not Caesar and call them both Celts.

Edited November 19, 2013 by greycat

[DevynCJohnson]

The Germans would definitely get brand new art, including buildings, props, shields, textures, etc. I was thinking their buildings would be mostly wooden, including their Fortress, which would be the least expensive (maybe 500 Wood) and weakest fortress in the game. Wooden walls, bigger than palisades, but not as strong as stone walls.

How long do you estimate it will be until the Germans are released in a stable version of 0AD?

[Lion.Kanzen]

How long do you estimate it will be until the Germans are released in a stable version of 0AD?

Second Part of the game. 0 AD Empires Besieged.

[greycat]

Second Part of the game. 0 AD Empires Besieged.

This makes sense to me except for the Gallo-Germanic Belgae. They were there at least by 300 BC and had conflict with Rome.

[Lion.Kanzen]

Except one . For now is good, but we see whst do it with that, you know about Palmyrans Revolt? And there is a Faction about them.

[greycat]

Except one . For now is good, but we see whst do it with that, you know about Palmyrans Revolt? And there is a Faction about them.

I will have to read about Palmyrans Revolt.

I would also like to explain why I brought up the genetics of modern day Germans. I think some people got the wrong idea. To some extent I think this is a microcosm for later day Gaul. Today northern Germany is predominantly Scandinavian while the southern part is stronger Celtic decent. These two cultures together make up what is today Germany i.m.o.

microcosm = a community, place, or situation regarded as encapsulating in miniature the characteristic qualities or features of something much larger.

[Lion.Kanzen]

You can read careful where came the Germans, I don't surprise that fact or data, the Germans aren't from Central Europe in all history.

They reached the Black Sea circa 500 BC.

The German ethnicity is linked to the Germanic tribes of antiquity in central Europe.[53] The early Germans originated on the North German Plain as well as southern Scandinavia.[53] By the 2nd century BC, the number of Germans was significantly increasing and they began expanding into eastern Europe and southward into Celtic territory.[53] During antiquity these Germanic tribes remained separate from each other and did not have writing systems at this time.[54] By 55 BC, the Germans had reached the Danube river and had either assimilated or otherwise driven out the Celts who had lived there, and had spread west into what is now Belgium and France.[54]

Conflict between the Germanic tribes and the forces of Rome under Julius Caesar forced major Germanic tribes to retreat to the east bank of the Rhine.[55] Roman emperor Augustus in 12 BC ordered the conquest of the Germans, but the catastrophic Roman defeat at the Battle of the Teutoburg Forest resulted in the Roman Empire abandoning its plans to completely conquer Germany.[53] Germanic peoples in Roman territory were culturally Romanized, and although much of Germany remained free of direct Roman rule, Rome deeply influenced the development of German society, especially the adoption of Christianity by the Germans who obtained it from the Romans.[55]

In Roman-held territories with Germanic populations, the Germanic and Roman peoples intermarried, and Roman, Germanic, and Christian traditions intermingled.[56] The adoption of Christianity would later become a major influence in the development of a common German identity.[54] The first major public figure to speak of a German people in general, was the Roman figure Tacitus in his work Germania around 100 AD.[57] However an actual united German identity and ethnicity did not exist then, and it would take centuries of development of German culture until the concept of a German ethnicity began to become a popular identity.[58]

--------

From Celtic times the early Germans settled from the Baltic all the way to the Black Sea until the great migrations of the 4-6th century AD. Germans migrated again eastwards during the medieval period Ostsiedlung until the expulsion of Germans after World War II; many areas in Central and Eastern Europe had an ethnic German population. In the Middle Ages, Germans were invited to migrate to Poland and the central and eastern regions of the German Holy Roman Empire and also the Kingdom of Hungary following the Mongol invasions of the 12th century, and then once again during the late 17th century after the Austrian-Ottoman wars to set up farms and repopulate the eastern regions of the Austrian Empire and Balkans.

Edited November 19, 2013 by Lion.Kanzen

[Lion.Kanzen]

The etymology of the word Germani is uncertain. The likeliest theory so far proposed is that it comes from a Gaulish compound of *ger "near" + *mani "men", comparable to Welsh ger "near" (prep.), Old Irish gair "neighbor", Irish gar- (prefix) "near", garach "neighborly".[12][13][14][15] Another Celtic possibility is that the name meant "noisy"; cf. Breton/Cornish garm "shout", Irish gairm "call".[16] However, here the vowel does not match, nor does the vowel length (contrast with inscriptional Garmangabi (UK) and Garma (Alise, G-257)). Others have proposed a Germanic etymology *gēr-manni, "spear men", cf. Middle Dutch ghere, Old High German Ger, Old Norse geirr.[17] However, the form gēr (from PGmc *gaizaz) seems far too advanced phonetically for the 1st century, has a long vowel where a short one is expected, and the Latin form has a simplex -n-, not a geminate.

This is very instarestkng to ñame the Spearman Unit.

[Rodmar]

Greycat, I hope I bring you good news!

S.Rieckhoff

"Süddeutschland im Spannungsfeld von Kelten, Germanen und Römern, Studien zur Chronologie der Spätlatènezeit im südlichen Mitteleuropa."
1995

I don't have the book, but I will try and translate some bit found on the Internet. At first glance, she tried and differentiate Germanic people in the Danubian area according to the pottery.