Germanic faction(s)

[greycat]

maybe this may be useful...

German Lexicon project

"The goal of this project is to create comprehensive online coverage of the lexicons of the early Germanic languages."

http://lexicon.ff.cuni.cz/

I am not a language expert... but the names given to units in Europa Barbarorum don't seem to be in the languages of the factions?

Edited October 14, 2013 by greycat

[Lion.Kanzen]

I know that why need discuss this highly. Hmm you had a Joker in the hand haha. We'll let see what are good for that.

We need something like Beowulf , warrior sagas in original language.

Edited October 14, 2013 by Lion.Kanzen

[greycat]

I know that why need discuss this highly. Hmm you had a Joker in the hand haha. We'll let see what are good for that.

We need something like Beowulf , warrior sagas in original language.

I believe the oldest texts we have are The Icelandic Sagas.

http://sagadb.org/

Edited October 14, 2013 by greycat

[Lion.Kanzen]

Yeah for me are valid the Sagas of these warriors.

[Nolanjoker]

wow you guys are deeper diggers, is an amazing info.

[greycat]

wow you guys are deeper diggers, is an amazing info.

Thanks.

[greycat]

The Suebi or Suevi (from Proto-Germanic *swēbaz based on the Proto-Germanic root *swē- meaning “one’s own” people, from an Indo-European root *swe-, the third person reflexive pronoun) were a group of Germanic peoples who were first mentioned by Julius Caesar in connection with Ariovistus' campaign, c. 58 BC; Ariovistus was defeated by Caesar.

This is a dictionary of reconstructed Proto-Germanic including rich etymological data.

http://lexicon.ff.cuni.cz/pdf/pgmc_torp/pgmc_torp_20061216.pdf

Edited October 14, 2013 by greycat

[newcivs]

These Germanic warriors should appear far less wild then their northern kinsman. However that does not make them less formidable in combat, the southern Germanic tribes were large and wealthy compared to those in the north. The Romans knew this and so instead of open warfare often engaged in lucrative trade agreements with the southern tribes, providing them with a more "romanized" appearance were their arms and armor were often similar to Roman ones. The Romans also used these trbes as a way to provide a well equipped buffer to the more war-like men of the north.

Western Germanic Tribes: Chatti, Suebi, and Marsi.

Like their southern brothers the western Germanic tribes would have had arms and armor that was very similar to Roman equipment. But not nearly to the degree of the southern tribes, as it was against Roman law to sell weapons and armor to any tribes to the north-west of the Rhine. These warriors are the ones often depicted raiding the Roman frontier, they are however not nearly as brutal as their northern brothers.

Source.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?555251-How-I-want-the-Germanic-tribes-to-look

In fact, but these images are representations of germanic tribes of III-VI AD, in this moment germanic tribes, were confederations with serious army, that explains the defeat of rome, no small fighter tribes, in fact these "tribes" were kingdoms

[newcivs]

I believe the oldest texts we have are The Icelandic Sagas.

http://sagadb.org/

I Think that we sould use these words for get name tu units, but we should mantain a unit with its property name "the druides"

[newcivs]

The Suebi or Suevi (from Proto-Germanic *swēbaz based on the Proto-Germanic root *swē- meaning “one’s own” people, from an Indo-European root *swe-, the third person reflexive pronoun) were a group of Germanic peoples who were first mentioned by Julius Caesar in connection with Ariovistus' campaign, c. 58 BC; Ariovistus was defeated by Caesar.

This is a dictionary of reconstructed Proto-Germanic including rich etymological data.

http://lexicon.ff.cuni.cz/pdf/pgmc_torp/pgmc_torp_20061216.pdf

That sound good, is older than icelandic sagas!, e gonna use it!

[Lion.Kanzen]

Is important quit of the mind of player naked Germans with bear skins. They uses chain mail armor, may be roman hamata.

[newcivs]

Yeah but, it's a game, we can do it 27 German playable factions. I love play with cimbri or Frisi or Suebi as single but think in game play.

Now if you want Alemanni instead of Suebi is not difficult. But with the time cannot be the best.

See we left Pontos, syracusan, Thracians, Numidian and other outside as Faction.

in the germanic tribes we can put a "style":

* Easter Germanics "Saxons", the lived even in augustus' age

* Irmiones "Cheruschi"

* Norse "Norse tribes"

* Insteneovic = "Bructerians"

Edited October 14, 2013 by newcivs

[newcivs]

Is important quit of the mind of player naked Germans with bear skins. They uses chain mail armor, may be roman hamata.

In part, the commem germanic citizen in fact was fight naked!, but the horsemen, "medium infantry", and aristocracy if fact was very protected

[newcivs]

Ok guys step by step we need

A map, a flag emblem and shield emblem ( valnut can be work for this)

See the document that I make.

We have a infantry.

Spearman

Archer

Skirmisher

...

Cavalry

Siege

And forbidden class.

Second structures. Specials and wonder.

i have some ideas:

* We can copy the "celtic Units", only put germanic simbols and Ready!, and do the "Civic Centre and Sacrificial Temple!, and put as "wonder" the germanic stones "non religious", as monuments

[Andrettin]

in the germanic tribes we can put a "style":

* Easter Germanics "Saxons", the lived even in augustus' age

* Irmiones "Cheruschi"

* Norse "Norse tribes"

* Insteneovic = "Bructerians"

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by the Saxons being an East Germanic tribe, but linguistically their speech is categorized as being West Germanic (while Old Norse is North Germanic and Gothic is East Germanic).

[Lion.Kanzen]

That is obviusly , I mean this.

http://youtu.be/hVKjzUhyufY

[greycat]

THE HISTORY OF THE GERMANIC TRIBES & RACES

The Germanic Peoples (also called Teutonic in older literature) are a
historical ethno-linguistic group, originating in Northern Europe and
identified by their use of the Indo-European Germanic languages which
diversified out of Common Germanic in the course of the Pre-Roman Iron
Age. The descendants of these peoples became, and in many areas
contributed to, the ethnic groups of North Western Europe: the Germans,
Norwegians, Swedish, Finland-Swedes, Danish, Faroese, English, Icelanders,
Austrians, Dutch and Flemish, and the inhabitants of Switzerland, Alsace,
Lorraine (German: Lothringen) and Friesland on the continent.

Migrating Germanic peoples spread throughout Europe in Late Antiquity (300-600)
and the Early Middle Ages. Germanic languages became dominant along the Roman
borders (Austria, Germany, Netherlands, Belgium and England), but in the rest
of the (western) Roman provinces, the Germanic immigrants adopted Latin (Romance)
dialects. Furthermore, all Germanic peoples were eventually Christianized to
varying extents. The Germanic people played a large role in transforming the
Roman Empire into Medieval Europe.

The History of The Term Germanic

Various etymologies for Latin Germani are possible. As an adjective, germani is
simply the plural of the adjective germanus (from germen, "seed" or "offshoot"),
which has the sense of "related" or "kindred" or "authentic". According to Strabo,
the Romans introduced the name Germani, because the Germanic tribes were the
authentic Celts (γνησίους Γαλάτας; gnisíous Galátas). Alternatively, it may refer
from this use based on Roman experience of the Germanic tribes as allies of the Celts.

The ethnonym seems to be attested in the Fasti Capitolini inscription for the year 222,

DE GALLEIS INSVBRIBVS ET GERM(aneis), where it may simply refer to "related"
peoples, namely related to the Gauls. Furthermore, since the inscriptions were
erected only in 17 to 18 BCE, the word may be a later addition to the text. Another
early mentioning of the name, this time by Poseidonios (writing around 80 BCE), is
also dubious, as it only survives in a quotation by Athenaios (writing around 190
CE); the mention of Germani in this context was more likely inserted by Athenaios
rather than by Poseidonios himself. The writer who apparently introduced the name
"Germani" into the corpus of classical literature is Julius Caesar. He uses Germani
in two slightly differing ways: one to describe any non-gaulic peoples of Germania,
and one to denote the Germani Cisrhenani, a somewhat diffuse group of peoples in
north-eastern Gaul, who cannot clearly be identified as either Celtic or Germanic.

In this sense, Germani may be a loan from a Celtic exonym applied to the Germanic
tribes, based on a word for "neighbour". Tacitus suggests that it might be from a
tribe which changed its name after the Romans adapted it, but there is no evidence
for this. The suggestion deriving the name from Gaulish term for "neighbour" invokes
Old Irish gair, Welsh ger, "near", Irish gearr, "cut, short" (a short distance), from
a Proto-Celtic root *gerso-s, further related to ancient Greek chereion, "inferior"
and English gash. The Proto-Indo-European root could be of the form *khar-, *kher-,
*ghar-, *gher-, "cut", from which also Hittite kar-, "cut", whence also Greek character.

Apparently, the Germanic tribes did not have a self-designation ("endonym") that
included all Germanic-speaking people but excluded all non-Germanic people. Non-
Germanic peoples (primarily Celtic, Roman, Greek, the citizens of the Roman Empire),
on the other hand, were called *walha- (this word lives forth in names such as Wales,
Welsh, Cornwall, Walloons, Vlachs etc.). Yet, the name of the Suebi - which designated
a larger group of tribes and was used almost indiscriminately with Germani in Caesar
- was possibly a Germanic equivalent of the Latin name (*swē-ba- "authentic").

The Term of Teutonic or Deutsch

Trying to identify a contemporary vernacular term and the associated nation
with a classical name, Latin writers from the 10th century onwards used the
learnèd adjective teutonicus (originally derived from the Teutones) to refer
to East Francia ("Regnum Teutonicum") and its inhabitants. This usage is
still partly present in modern English; hence the English use of "Teutons"
in reference to the Germanic peoples in general besides the specific tribe
of the Teutons defeated at the Battle of Aquae Sextiae in 102 BCE.

The generic *þiuda- "people" occurs in many personal names such as Thiud-reks
and also in the ethnonym of the Swedes from a cognate of Old English Sweo-ðēod
and Old Norse: Sui-þióð (see e.g. Sö Fv1948;289). Additionally, þiuda- appears
in Angel-ðēod ("Anglo-Saxon people") and Gut-þiuda ("Gothic people"). The
adjective derived from this noun, *þiudiskaz, "popular", was later used with
reference to the language of the people in contrast to the Latin language
(earliest recorded example 786). The word is continued in German Deutsch
(meaning German), English "Dutch", Dutch Duits and Diets (the latter referring
to Dutch, the former meaning German) and Swedish/Danish/Norwegian tysk
(meaning German).

The Classification of The Germanic Race

By the 1st century CE, the writings of Caesar, Tacitus and other
Roman era writers indicate a division of Germanic-speaking peoples
into tribal groupings centred on:

*......... the rivers Oder and Vistula/Weichsel (East Germanic tribes),
*................................................... the lower Rhine river (Istvaeones),
* ................................................................the river Elbe (Irminones),
* ...................................Jutland and the Danish islands (Ingvaeones).

The Sons of Mannus, Istvaeones, Irminones, and Ingvaeones are collectively
called West Germanic tribes. In addition, those Germanic people who remained
in Scandinavia are referred to as North Germanic. These groups all developed
separate dialects, the basis for the differences among Germanic language down
to the present day. Detail of the Uppland Rune Inscription 871 (12th century)

The division of peoples into West Germanic, East Germanic, and North Germanic
is a modern linguistic classification. Many Greek scholars only classified
Celts and Scythians in the Northwest and Northeast of the Mediterranean and this
classification was widely maintained in Greek literature until Late Antiquity.
Latin-Greek ethnographers (Tacitus, Pliny the Elder, Ptolemy, and Strabo)
mentioned in the first two centuries the names of peoples they classified as
Germanic along the Elbe, the Rhine, and the Danube, the Vistula and on the Baltic
Sea. Tacitus mentioned 40, Ptolemy 69 peoples. Classical ethnography applied the
name Suebi to many tribes in the first century. It appeared that this native name
had all but replaced the foreign name Germanic. After the Marcomannic wars the
Gothic name steadily gained importance. Some of the ethnic names mentioned by the
ethnographers of the first two centuries on the shores of the Oder and the Vistula
(Gutones, Vandali) reappear from the 3rd century on in the area of the lower Danube
and north of the Carpathian Mountains. For the end of the 5th century the Gothic
name can be used - according to the historical sources - for such different peoples
like the Goths in Gaul, Iberia and Italy, the Vandals in Africa, the Gepids along the
Tisza and the Danube, the Rugians, Sciri and Burgundians, even the Iranian Alans.
These peoples were classified as Scyths and often deducted from the ancient Getae
(most important: Cassiodor / Jordanes, Getica around 550).

Regarding the question of ethnic origins, evidence developed by archaeologists
and linguists suggests that a people or group of peoples sharing a common
material culture dwelt in a region defined by the Nordic Bronze Age culture
between 1700 BCE and 600 BCE. The Germanic tribes then inhabited southern
Scandinavia and Schleswig, but subsequent Iron Age cultures of the same region,
like Wessenstedt (800 to 600 BCE) and Jastorf, are also in consideration. The
change of Proto-Indo-European to Proto-Germanic has been defined by the first
sound shift (or Grimm's law) and must have occurred when mutually intelligible
dialects or languages in a Sprachbund were still able to convey such a change
to the whole region. So far it has been impossible to date this event conclusively.

The Pre-Roman Iron Age

Archeological evidence suggests a relatively uniform Germanic people were located at about 750 BCE from the Netherlands to the Vistula and in Southern Scandinavia. In the west the coastal floodplains were populated for the first time, since in adjacent higher grounds the population had increased and the soil became exhausted. At about 250 BCE, some expansion to the south had occurred and five general groups can be distinguished: North Germanic in southern Scandinavia, excluding Jutland; North Sea Germanic, along the North Sea and in Jutland; Rhine- Weser Germanic, along the middle Rhine and Weser; Elbe Germanic, along the middle Elbe; and East Germanic, between the middle Oder and the Vistula. This concurs with linguistic evidence pointing at the development of five linguistic groups, mutually linked into sets of two to four groups that shared linguistic innovations.

This period witnessed the advent of Celtic culture of Hallstatt and La Tene signature in previous Northern Bronze Age territory, especially to the western extends. However, some proposals suggest this Celtic superstrate was weak, while the general view in the Netherlands holds that this Celtic influence did not involve intrusions at all and assume fashion and a local development from Bronze Age culture. It is generally accepted such a Celtic superstratum was virtually absent to the East, featuring the Germanic Wessenstedt and Jastorf cultures. The Celtic influence and contacts between Gaulish and early Germanic culture along the Rhine is assumed as the source of a number of Celtic loanwords in Proto-Germanic.

Frankenstein and Rowlands (1978), and Wells (1980) have suggested late Hallstatt trade contact to be a direct catalyst for the development of an elite class that came into existence around northeastern France, the Middle Rhine region, and adjacent Alpine regions (Collis 1984:41), culminating to new cultural developments and the advent of the classical Gaulish La Tene Culture The development of La Tene culture extended to the north around 200 to 150 BCE, including the North German Plain, Denmark and Southern Scandinavia:

"In certain cremation graves, situated at some distance from other graves, Celtic metalwork appears: brooches and swords, together with wagons, Roman cauldrons and drinking vessels. The area of these rich graves is the same as the places where later (the first century CE) princely graves are found. A ruling class seems to have emerged, distinguished by the possession of large farms and rich gravegifts such as weapons for the men and silver objects for the women, imported earthenware and Celtic items."

The first Germani in Roman ethnography cannot be clearly identified as either Germanic or Celtic in the modern ethno-linguistic sense, and it has been generally held the traditional clear cut division along the Rhine between both ethnic groups was primarily motivated by Roman politics. Caesar described the Eburones as a Germanic tribe on the Gallic side of the Rhine, and held other tribes in the neigh bourhood as merely calling themselves of Germanic stock. Even though names like Eburones and Ambiorix were Celtic and, archeologically, this area shows strong Celtic influences, the problem is difficult. Some 20th century writers consider the possibility of a separate "Nordwestblock" identity of the tribes settled along the Rhine at the time, assuming the arrival of a Germanic superstrate from the 1st century BCE and a subsequent "Germanization" or language replacement through the "elite-dominance"model. However, immigration of Germanic Batavians from Hessen in the northern extent of this same tribal region is, archeologically speaking, hardly noticeable and certainly did not populate an exterminated country, very unlike Tacitus suggested. Here, probably due to the local indigenous pastoral way of life, the acceptance of Roman culture turned out to be particularly slow and, contrary to expected, the indigenous culture of the previous Eburones rather seems to have absorbed the intruding (Batavian) element, thus making it very hard to define the real extents of the pre-Roman Germanic indigenous territories.

Germanic expansions during early Roman times are known only generally, but it is clear that the forebears of the Goths were settled on the southern Baltic shore by 100 CE. The early Germanic tribes are assumed to have spoken mutually intelligible dialects, in the sense that Germanic languages derive from a single earlier parent language. No written records of such a parent language exists. From what we know of scanty early written material, by the fifth century CE the Germanic languages were already "sufficiently different to render communication between the various peoples impossible". Some evidence point to a common pantheon made up of several different chronological layers. However, as for mythology only the Scandinavian one (see Germanic mythology) is sufficiently known. Some traces of common traditions between various tribes are indicated by Beowulf and the Volsunga saga. One indication of their shared identity is their common Germanic name for non-Germanic peoples, *walhaz (plural of *walhoz), from which the local names Welsh, Wallis, Walloon and others were derived. An indication of an ethnic unity is the fact that the Romans knew them as one and gave them a common name, Germani (this is the source of our German and Germanic, see Etymology above), although it was well known for the Romans to give geographical rather than cultural names to peoples. The very extensive practice of cremation deprives us of anthropological comparative material for the earliest periods to support claims of a longstanding ethnic isolation of a common (Nordic) strain.

By the late 2nd century BCE, Roman authors recount, Gaul, Italy and Hispania were invaded by migrating Germanic tribes. This culminated in military conflict with the armies of the Roman Republic, in particular those of the Roman Consul Gaius Marius. Six decades later, Julius Caesar invoked the threat of such attacks as one justification for his annexation of Gaul to Rome. As Rome expanded to the Rhine and Danube rivers, it incorporated many Celtic societies into the Empire. The tribal homelands to the north and east emerged collectively in the records as Germania. The peoples of this area were sometimes at war with Rome, but also engaged in complex and long-term trade relations, military alliances, and cultural exchanges with Rome as well. The Cimbri and Teutoni incursions into Roman Italy were thrust back in 101 BCE. These invasions were written up by Caesar and others as presaging of a Northern danger for the Roman Republic, a danger that should be controlled. In the Augustean period there was - as a result of Roman activity as far as the Elbe River - a first definition of the "Germania magna": from Rhine and Danube in the West and South to the Vistula and the Baltic Sea in the East and North.

Caesar's wars helped establish the term Germania. The initial purpose of the Roman campaigns was to protect Transalpine Gaul by controlling the area between the Rhine and the Elbe. In 9 CE a revolt of their Germanic subjects headed by the supposed Roman ally, Arminius, (along with his decisive defeat of Publius Quinctilius Varus and the destruction of 3 Roman legions in the surprise attack on the Romans at the Battle of the Teutoburg Forest) ended in the withdrawal of the Roman frontier to the Rhine. At the end of the 1st century two provinces west of the Rhine called Germania inferior and Germania superior were established. Important medieval cities like Aachen, Cologne, Trier, Mainz, Worms and Speyer were part of these Roman provinces.

Source: http://www.imperialteutonicorder.com/id43.html

Edited October 15, 2013 by greycat

[greycat]

edit

Edited October 15, 2013 by greycat

[greycat]

A loanword (or loan word) is a word borrowed from a donor language and incorporated into a recipient language. The concept of a loanword is similar to, but not the same as, that of a calque. A calque, or loan translation, is a related concept where the meaning or idiom is borrowed rather than the lexical item itself.

Ironically, the word loanword is itself a calque of the German Lehnwort,while calque is a loanword from French.

http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kroch/courses/lx310/ringe-handouts-09/celt-loans.pdf

[greycat]

Germanic Celts

St. Jerome wrote at the end of the 4th century in a comment to "the epistle of St Paul to the Galatians" that the Galatians (Turkey) spoke the same language as the Treveri, which is German (Comentarii in Epistolam ad Galatos, II:3.). Several Roman writers (Caesar, Strabo, Tacitus) mentioned the German origin of the Treveri. For Tacitus' phrase click here .

The story of the Galatians is reasonably well attested. They migrated south through the Balkan, looted a part of Greece (281 BC) and were eventually convinced to settle in West-Anatolia (Central-west Turkey). See: Wikipedia for Galatia (although there too, they are considered to be Gauls)

St. Jerome had visited both regions and knew what he was talking about: St. Jerome or Eusebius Sophronius Hieronymus became famous for his translations of the Bible [2]. The word 'Galatoi' has therefore nothing to do with 'Gauls' but is a synonym of 'Keltoi' (Celts). But even the Romans confused them with Gauls and called them sometimes 'Galli'. Gauls were for the Romans the inhabitants of the imperial administrative region between the Pyrenees and the Rhine river. A specific or single language was not implied [3].
Remark here that Hieronymus wrote that he was born in Strido Dalmatiae (in the northern region of modern Slovenia) close to the border of Pannonia (modern Austria). Today, German and Slavonic meet each other in that region. It is therefore possible that Hieronymus' native language was Germanic. After all, the Germanic tribe of the Scordisci lived to the south of Hieronymus' birthplace.

This can explain his completely redundant remark about the Galatians: "Hey, they speak a similar language as back home... mmm, I'll write as the Treverians, that will be more clear". Trier was the capital of the west Roman empire in those days. Hieronymus stayed for two years in Trier when he was a student in Christian sciences.

A language specialist has for me more credibility than some Romans who were little interested in language, not even their own. Let's not forget that the official Roman language in the eastern part of the Empire always was Greek.
Galatians were Celtic Germans who had migrated to Anatolia (Turkey).

Do we have other evidence that Celtic Germans existed? Yes, we do.

The Bastarnae or Basternae (Ancient Greek: Βαστάρναι or Βαστέρναι) were a tribe of Germanic origin which, between not later than 200 BC and until at least AD 300, inhabited the region between the eastern Carpathian mountains and the Dnieper river (corresponding to the modern Republic of Moldova and western part of southern Ukraine).
Greco-Roman writers of the 1st century AD are unanimous that the Bastarnae were, in their own time, Germanic in language and culture. The Greek geographer Strabo [4] says the Bastarnae are "of Germanic stock". The Roman geographer Pliny the Elder (ca. AD 77), refers to "Bastarnae and other Germans". Tacitus stated: "The Peucini, however, who are sometimes called Bastarnae, are like Germans in their language, way of life and types of dwelling and live in similar squalor and indolence...."

Livy, the Roman historian,writing in ca. AD 10, may imply that the Bastarnae adhered to the Celtic culture. Relating events of ca. 180 BC, he describes them then as "similar in language and customs" to the Scordisci (see below), a tribe of Illyria described as Celtic by Strabo. Germanic or Celtic? Probably both. The Bastarnae probably migrated from the west to their known location next to the Black Sea.

The Scordisci (Greek,"Σκορδίσκοι") were a tribe centered in what would become the Roman Provinces of lower Pannonia, Moesia and present-day Serbia at the confluence of the Savus (Sava), Dravus (Drava) and Danube rivers. They were historically notable from the beginning of the third century BC until the turn of the common era. At their zenith, their influence stretched over regions comprising parts of the present-day southeast Austria, Croatia, Hungary, Serbia, Slovenia, Slovakia, Bosnia and Herzegovina. Their language was most probably German as it was described as "similar to the Bastarnae". However, their culture was Celtic. The Scordisci were original inhabitants of the region, not migrants. The importance of the early attested presence of a Germanic language in this vast region to the southeast of modern Austria will be revealed in the section spread of agriculture" .

The presence of the Germanic speaking Scordisci so far south contradicts the commonly stated hypothesis that the German language originated in the north of Europe (Scandinavia) and spread from there to the south between 450 BC and 150 BC.

The conclusion is that:
(a) Celtic has nothing to do with a specific language like Brythonic (such as proto-Welsh). There never was a Celtic people or ethnicity, only a culture.
( The culture originated from rich southern Germany or Austria, where the salt mines provided the means to develop it to its highest level, from where it subsequently spread (peacefully) to the west and to the east. However, it is likely that this 'west' (northern France / Belgium) contributed significantly to the Celtic culture via cultural exchanges.

All zones are approximate.

The Greek historian Herodotus placed Celtica at the source of the Danube (German Bavaria). This was of course hearsay, but the information is surprisingly precise. He seemingly thought that the source of the Danube was situated north of the Pyrenees. However, there was a vast Celtic region north of the Pyrenees.

According to Strabo [4], the Romans introduced the name Germani, because the Germanic tribes were the authentic Celts (γνησίους Γαλάτας). Strabo noticed the similarity between the Latin words 'Germanus' (a noun referring to the people) and 'germanus' (an adjective - meaning offspring, descendant, having the same ancestors, therefore : authentic). Although there is no etymological relation, he must have known that the (south) Germans were acknowledged as authentic Celts by the Romans.

At the time Strabo wrote his Geographica, the whole region south of the Danube has been for at least 50 years firmly in Roman hands. Stating that this region was Celtic speaking and that those Celts were later replaced by 'real' northern Germans or that a language change had been imposed, is therefore preposterous. The empire would not have allowed it. The region remained loyal to Rome up to the last days of the empire.

Dio Cassius (155-225 AD) says that the Suebi (a German tribe deeper in Germany) "dwell across the Rhine - though many cities elsewhere claim their name - and that they were anciently called Celts." Earlier he had explained [5] "...very anciently both peoples dwelling on either side of the river [Rhine] were called Celts.". Understand with the last sentence: Germans lived on both sides of the Rhine. Do we need more proof that the word Celt was used for Germanic people (too) prior to the alleged clarifications of Julius Caesar?

All this gives us the clear insight that 'Celts' as a people, even politically divided, only existed in the mind of modern historians. Celts spoke languages as various as High German, Low German, continental Brythonic, proto-Dutch (Low German), Insular Brythonic and proto-English. But all these populations shared the same culture, known as the Celtic culture.

http://www.proto-english.org/

Edited October 15, 2013 by greycat

[greycat]

edit

Edited October 15, 2013 by greycat

[greycat]

Germani or authentic Celts (γνησίους Γαλάτας)

According to Strabo, the Romans introduced the name Germani, because the Germanic tribes were the authentic Celts (γνησίους Γαλάτας).

Dio Cassius

"...very anciently both peoples dwelling on either side of the river [Rhine] were called Celts."

Archeology:

The Glauberg is a Celtic oppidum in Hesse, Germany consisting of a fortified settlement and several burial mounds, "a princely seat^[1] of the late Hallstatt and early La Tène periods."^[2]Archaeological discoveries in the 1990s place the site among the most important early Celtic centres in Europe. It provides unprecedented evidence on Celtic burial, sculpture and monumental architecture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glauberg

Google map

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Glauberg&ie=UTF-8&ei=SU9dUojMMoPuiQKAsYH4Cg&ved=0CAoQ_AUoAg

The Celtic Prince of Glauberg (ca. 500 BC)

references:

http://www.wikipedia.org/

http://www.proto-english.org/

Edited October 16, 2013 by greycat

[greycat]

edit

Edited November 13, 2013 by greycat

[greycat]

An overview of the Hallstatt and La Tène cultures. The core Hallstatt territory (800 BC) is shown in solid yellow, the area of influence by 500 BC (HaD) in light yellow. The core territory of the La Tène culture (450 BC) is shown in solid green, the eventual area of La Tène influence by 50 BC in light green. The territories of some major Celtic tribes are labelled. Map drawn after Atlas of the Celtic World, by John Haywood (2001: 30–37).

note: The Veneti were a seafaring Celtic people who lived in the Brittany peninsula (France), which in Roman times formed part of an area called Armorica, until they were all killed or sold into slavery by the Romans. They gave their name to the modern city of Vannes.

references:

http://www.wikipedia.org/

Edited October 15, 2013 by greycat

[greycat]

edit

Edited October 15, 2013 by greycat