(Bronze Age) Civ: Hebrews/ Israelites

[Lion.Kanzen]

Ok, i agree with that but you know, for my in this topic Jews is priority to have a last word in this matter. I don't want offense any religion or religious group.

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

With that point made, what about in the next part of 0 A.D. with pristine cathedrals being demolished. Christians will be outraged! (there may be a certain amount of sarcasm to the last sentence) Seriously, the temple was destroyed in history. How could having the possibility of destroying a currently nonexistent structure offend Jews that much? One could infer that since you do not include the miraculous deeds of Yahweh during the time of Moses, Joshua, and other Israelites, that would be completely heretical. I understand the concern over frustrating people, but I think that the problem is being taken a bit too seriously.

[Lion.Kanzen]

http://trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/Civ%3A_Seleucids?version=16

We need have document design at maximum description like Seleucid design document.

[Zophim]

http://trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/Civ%3A_Seleucids?version=16

We need have document design at maximum description like Seleucid design document.

Hi everyone, it's been a few weeks since I posted on the forums, but I am indeed still at work on fleshing out the Israelite design doc.

[Lion.Kanzen]

May cen be completed even techs with weaknees and strongness.

[newcivs]

With that point made, what about in the next part of 0 A.D. with pristine cathedrals being demolished. Christians will be outraged! (there may be a certain amount of sarcasm to the last sentence) Seriously, the temple was destroyed in history. How could having the possibility of destroying a currently nonexistent structure offend Jews that much? One could infer that since you do not include the miraculous deeds of Yahweh during the time of Moses, Joshua, and other Israelites, that would be completely heretical. I understand the concern over frustrating people, but I think that the problem is being taken a bit too seriously.

I have quistions:

* How we implemente "miracles"?

* There is some other religions "mauryans budhism, celts, equivalent to neopaganism" that means give to all factions "miracles"

* that kills the style of 0AD, about that the historical presition?

* if a miracle is "send planes during 15 seconds" "as hedgewars' napalm" all factions needs it "and that kills the historical presition too"

[Zophim]

i think: the scientists sayd "The Hebrews need some units under the walls, digging, we gan put that the units "disappear", and the walls lose health!

Interesting idea; perhaps in the future certain factions could have the ability to use tunnelers/sappers in some way.

I think that the "juedean slingers" need some bonuses, beaceuse "in the slingers world", was of the better forces in the world, as to the balearic slinger!, this units is the "champion slinger" of Ptolomeaic empire!, fight without protection, only a helmet, and for the faction, because the famous legend of the fail of cananean walls with only pay we can put a technology of "celt

style", the healrs increase the armour!think that the hebrew facion must hace a slinger bonus!, as to the balearic slingers, was powerful!

One of the United Monarchy champion units should be a slinger of the Benjamite tribe (Benjamite slingers are mentioned at least twice in the Old Testament as being very skilled.) Normal Judahite slingers will be available as basic civ centre and barracks units.

the hebrews and the celts "gauls, britons and germanics" have a strong myth that the "god(s)" aid in the battle, and i think that this facions should hace a bonus with the healers, +2 armor is good

and the judean slingers was of the most powerful slingers on the mediterranean!!, i think that the hebrew facion must hace a slinger bonus!, as to the balearic slingers, was powerful!

I believe that Jehovah did indeed, at times, aid his people the Israelites against their enemies in battle, but I do not believe divine aid should play a factor in the game. This type of supernatural phenomenon occurred relatively infrequently in Israel's history, and I am very uncomfortable with the idea of “summoning” divine aid, even in a game, as though God were at our beck and call.

i have a quiestion?

on the tabernacle i can train healers??

Yes, the Tabernacle (and Temple) should be able to train healers: Priests of Jehovah. In the Old Testament, one of the many offices of a Levitical priest was to serve as the “health inspector/physician”, if you will, of people's various ailments and diseases, giving prescriptions and remedies for them.

i think that lost the temple should don't be suicide for faction, but converts the faction "unplayable" weak, expensive and unarmored units, expensive and weak structures, or at leat put as wonder as this wonder is obligatory for victory "mantain the style but avoiding polemics"

So, in other words, building this wonder would be a condition for victory in some game modes?

In fact!!, is a mithology, It has something indeed, but or the facts are exaggerated, or mystified, for which is prohibitive to use it, my must look for archaeological sources

On the contrary, I think that the worst one could say about the Bible as a historical sourcebook is that many parts of it have not (yet!) been corroborrated by extra-Biblical sources such as contemporary accounts from other nations and peoples. However, up through the present day, the Bible continues to be confirmed by science and history, in a multitude of fields. Therefore, I believe it is an authentic primary source for a historical game researcher to use.

i have a simple solution put the singoge as "civ centre", and the salomon temple as wonder,this structures have an aura that protects the strucure during 5 minutes of continue attack, after of the 5 minutes "of surrive" ........ or heal units as a temple for aid to surrive the strucures,

The synagogue is actually a mostly New Testament-era structure, with its use becoming rather widespread by the first century B.C. It was basically the center of Jewish town or village's religious and cultural life (a civic centre!), but it is rather late for a Late Bronze Age timeframe. The civ centre I had in mind would basically be a “house of meeting”, but not called a “synagogue,” per se. As far as the wonder goes, I had already planned to use Solomon's temple for that purpose (but it should probably be rather difficult to destroy).

With that point made, what about in the next part of 0 A.D. with pristine cathedrals being demolished. Christians will be outraged! (there may be a certain amount of sarcasm to the last sentence) Seriously, the temple was destroyed in history. How could having the possibility of destroying a currently nonexistent structure offend Jews that much? One could infer that since you do not include the miraculous deeds of Yahweh during the time of Moses, Joshua, and other Israelites, that would be completely heretical. I understand the concern over frustrating people, but I think that the problem is being taken a bit too seriously.

I personally do not think that the destruction of a religious temple (or church, or mosque, or monastery, or any other place of meditation/worship/veneration) should be overly offensive to most people in the game-playing community. 0 A.D., by its very nature, involves massive amounts of simulated death and destruction. People out there who are offended about temple destruction also are probably squeamish about the “total war” concepts of annihilation and devastation (although, as a player, I would prefer to negotiate a peace settlement with my would-be foes before we come to blows). In that case, I think they would probably be happier not playing this type of historical conquest game to begin with.

I have quistions:

* How we implemente "miracles"?

* There is some other religions "mauryans budhism, celts, equivalent to neopaganism" that means give to all factions "miracles"

* that kills the style of 0AD, about that the historical presition?

* if a miracle is "send planes during 15 seconds" "as hedgewars' napalm" all factions needs it "and that kills the historical presition too"

Regarding the implementation of miracles: It is true that Israel, as God's chosen nation, at times experienced deliverance and/or victory via supernatural occurrences such as the plagues of Egypt, the parting of the Red Sea, the collapse of the Jericho walls, the hailstones striking the Canaanites, the thunder against the Philistines, etc.. But most of the time, deliverance occurred through the “mundane” or “everday” actions of a few individuals used by God to lead their people to victory using often unorthodox, but almost always very human methods of warfare: ambushes, stealth, trickery, negotiation, etc.. I am definitely against having miracles readily available in one's game arsenal; the Lord God is not a man that we should “use” him to perform acts of deliverance for us, and I don't think that these types of super-advantages should be available in a game, as they would be an incorrect portrayal of the nature of supernatural assistance. If God intervenes divinely on our behalf, it is to get glory unto himself, not because we randomly decided to avail ourselves of a “Jehovah cheat code”. So, for example, as Israelites, we shouldn't be able to call down hailstones on an attacking army in 0 A.D. I intend to treat the Israelite faction, and all others for that matter, from an almost purely human standpoint.

[newcivs]

So, in other words, building this wonder would be a condition for victory in some game modes?

Yes, in this forum this topic was talked!

The synagogue is actually a mostly New Testament-era structure, with its use becoming rather widespread by the first century B.C. It was basically the center of Jewish town or village's religious and cultural life (a civic centre!), but it is rather late for a Late Bronze Age timeframe. The civ centre I had in mind would basically be a “house of meeting”, but not called a “synagogue,” per se. As far as the wonder goes, I had already planned to use Solomon's temple for that purpose (but it should probably be rather difficult to destroy).

we can put a temple as civ centre "as phoenicians the tophet"

the united champion sliner is good!! as champion unit!

[Lion.Kanzen]

Yes, in this forum this topic was talked!

we can put a temple as civ centre "as phoenicians the tophet"

the united champion sliner is good!! as champion unit!

The Slinger can be one of them.

But I don't want use other temple ( from other Civ) as Civic Center.

[Rodmar]

I see a Documental About that Conquest, im not Faith man, but i believe how fall the walls see the video

.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u16HOh0F-QI

i think: the scientists sayd "The Hebrews need some units under the walls, digging, we gan put that the units "disappear", and the walls lose health!

Sapping was not Hebrews'privilege. Also, the speculation in the video is both simple and elegant (diversion and infiltration).

[Zophim]

Here is my first semi-complete United Monarchy Israel civ profile. I have uploaded the document to public Google docs, or you can simply view the document attachment below the Google docs link.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1URgrmwd3qH0bNVgw0WrFLQovnC0iZIo7gh5m0f9GMLc/edit

UnitedMonarchyIsrael.doc

Like I said, it is far from finished, but one should at least get a somewhat clear idea of how the faction would work. Regarding the Hebrew names, I do not claim to be an expert linguist, so in case someone more qualified has input regarding names or spelling, feel free to comment.

[Atenmeses52]

Here is my first semi-complete United Monarchy Israel civ profile. I have uploaded the document to public Google docs, or you can simply view the document attachment below the Google docs link.

Thanks so much! This is super helpful!

Regarding the Hebrew names, I do not claim to be an expert linguist, so in case someone more qualified has input regarding names or spelling, feel free to comment.

Just a question on these-- is "ch" supposed to represent an English ch, a French ch (English "sh"), or a German ch (guttural sound)?

[Zophim]

Thanks so much! This is super helpful!

Just a question on these-- is "ch" supposed to represent an English ch, a French ch (English "sh"), or a German ch (guttural sound)?

You're welcome! The "ch" would be pronounced the German way.

[Zophim]

So here's the mostly complete United Monarchy civ profile. The image quality is rather better in the document attachment than in the Google doc.

UnitedMonarchyIsrael.doc

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_lqBcrLGh5ua2c4emZWSzg2R3c/edit

[Lion.Kanzen]

So here's the mostly complete United Monarchy civ profile. The image quality is rather better in the document attachment than in the Google doc.

UnitedMonarchyIsrael.doc

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_lqBcrLGh5ua2c4emZWSzg2R3c/edit

try to send the link to Atemneses.

[newcivs]

So here's the mostly complete United Monarchy civ profile. The image quality is rather better in the document attachment than in the Google doc.

UnitedMonarchyIsrael.doc

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_lqBcrLGh5ua2c4emZWSzg2R3c/edit

Slingers:

normal stones??, of flaming?

[Zophim]

Slingers:

normal stones??, of flaming?

The slingers would hurl normal stones.

[Zophim]

Good archaeological discoveries about a fortress from the period of Saul and David:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2012/05/19/news-to-note-05192012

http://www.diggingsonline.com/pages/rese/arts/other/2012/qeiyafa01.htm

http://www.diggingsonline.com/pages/rese/arts/other/2013/qeiyafa01.htm

http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-artifacts/artifacts-and-the-bible/breaking-news%E2%80%94evidence-of-cultic-activity-in-judah-discovered-at-khirbet-qeiyafa/

[Rodmar]

I stumbled on 2006 National Geographic 49' documentary (and fiction), both in French and then the original version in English, but I found it was _sold_ on Amazon... so I won't provide any link, just Ggle "Youtube lost cities bible"

It's a recap about the ancient and recent delves in the SE Dead Sea plain.

It also presents an explanation about what may have occurred in this region, several centuries before those events were recorded in a writing.

In short, they discovered two cities quite near to each other, both being burned to ash, one of them showing evidences of battle at a gate, and the other one an earthquake strike. So far, they are the only two cities found in the area where the two well known biblical towns could have laid (SE Valley on Dead Sea's shore). They also speculate about an earthquake at Jericho and confirm the fact that the invaders did not stole the grain, as it is written in the Bible (the Jericho parenthesis is to explain that such towns build on a rift had no chance to escape one or two earthquakes a century). Another parenthesis is to show that such cities build a top gas and tar pockets could experience sudden and impressive FAE-like explosions and/or burning solid rain from a nearby explosion, like with volcanic burning ashes. In this time, a few incandescent "bombs" would ravage a whole city with all those thatch roofs and brick walls. As it's certainly not a mere city fire that would prevent humans to re-settle a ravaged site, they postulate that what could explain why those sites were abandoned all of a sudden, is the striking vision of a burning tar fire/geyser, and the huge, lasting dark smoke cloud that would form (obscuring vision for days, leaving ashes everywhere...).

Edited March 6, 2014 by Rodmar

[Zophim]

Intriguing stuff, Rodmar; God could certainly have used a cataclysmic event of nature to level the two cities.

[Veridagorin]

i think what would be best for the temple would be the main temple building with the altar and the golden basin outside surrounded by a wall

[Zophim]

i think what would be best for the temple would be the main temple building with the altar and the golden basin outside surrounded by a wall

Yes, I'd like to at least have the Temple itself, as well as the altar and basin, surrounded by the Inner Court wall complex. If we included the outer Great Court wall as well, the footprint for the structure would be HUGE, and perhaps be impractical, given the purposes and limitations of this game.

Edited May 18, 2014 by Zophim

[Zophim]

ATTENTION: Any further civ profile revisions that I make will be uploaded to a specific post in the "[Collection] Design Docs" topic in the Aristeia forum.

[Usac]

Just a thought, but the Hebrew word for chariot is Rakkab if you need any unit names.

[Zophim]

@ Usac: My understanding from Strong's concordance is that the word "rakkab" mainly refers to chariot personnel, whereas the term I used, "rekeb", refers primarily to the chariot vehicles themselves, which is what I intended. I could be incorrect, though, so further details in favour of the term "rakkab" would be appreciated.