Brainstorming the Asian Civilizations

[Phaedros]

So I'm trying to come up with ideas for the Asian civilizations, but I'm running into a few issues, firstly Japan, I'm kinda at a loss since there wasn't much going on in the Yayoi period (which lines up with 0 A.D.), then there's China, they have about 3 different dynasties during the 0 A.D. time period, however Korea was pretty stable until 108 BC when Gojoseon collapsed which gave way to the Three Kingdoms period of Korea...

So I guess what I'm getting at is should I just name them as such: Chinese, Japanese, Koreans? And would anyone want to collaborate and see if we can flesh out these civs to be added later? O.o

Edited October 19, 2012 by Phaedros

[MishFTW]

We've somewhat started discussing in this thread. Han Chinese are probably the most likely to make it into the game... remember additional civs can be downloaded when the game is completed.

[lilstewie]

I definitely hope the Hans make it to part 1.

It's too big and important.

Edited October 19, 2012 by lilstewie

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

Out of curiosity, why do you want it?

[oshron]

the Japanese can work as a civilization, just not in Part 1; the most notable period in Japanese history that falls into 0ad's timeframe is the Yamato period from about 250-710 AD

the Chinese could potentially have three factions devoted to them--the Wei, the Shu, and the Wu--if they can be made distinct enough from each other. another possible inclusion is the Xiongnu, who were basically the equivalent of the Mongols in their time (and were eventually absorbed into Chinese culture). notably, the Mongols themselves would have to be excluded since they were a non-entity during 0ad's timeframe. for the Koreans specifically, i would suggest the Kaguryo

[SMST]

the Chinese could potentially have three factions devoted to them--the Wei, the Shu, and the Wu--if they can be made distinct enough from each other.

I think having two factions depicting the Warring States/Qin and the other the Han would work better. The Three Kingdoms were not terribly different from each other and the Han period, I believe.

[oshron]

a fair point, though im not sure the differences between the Qin and Han dynasties are really distinct enough to warrant being separate factions

incidentally, i actually collected a fair amount of information on Han Chinese arms and armor for a Deadliest Warrior take-off on another board (which would have pitted a group of Han Warriors against a Persian Immortals). here's what i had for that:

Armor: scale corselet of leather and iron, possibly with a protective layer of black lacquer (the lacquer dates to the Qin rather than Han), and lamellar cuirass; shoulder guards and helmet, though leather caps were more common historically ((skirmishers usually lacked armor while mainline infantry were well-protected, and officers had heavier armor))

Weapons: dao (saber), ji (halberd), zhuge nu (repeating crossbow), jian (double-edged straight sword; might be superfluous with the dao), wooden shield reinforced by a metal center and rim

there's also this that i wrote up for my own reference long before that:

• 221 BC: unification of China under Qin; Imperial Era last 15 years
  
• Qin emperor standardized writing systems, weights, and coinage; made the private possession of weapons illegal; established a road and canal system to quickly deploy troops; a centralized empire became the norm for the rest of Chinese history
  
• the greatest threat to Qin and Han China was nomadic confederations such as Xiongnu; the nomads used fast horse archers which were much faster than Chinese soldiers, so thee Chinese built the Great Wall and used diplomacy and bribes
  
• Qin general Meng Tian ousted the Xiongnu from the Ordos
  
• Maodun conquered Eastern Han and drove out the Yuezhi
  
• the Great Wall required 10,000 men to keep it in Chinese hands, plus 50-60 thousand citizen-soldiers in the frontiers to reduce costs of supplying them; a professional army emerged to compensate for the farmers' lack of cavalry skill, which consisted of Han mercenaries, convicts, and subjugated Xiongnu
  
• 31 BC: Han China abolished universal conscription, and the borders extended from the Yangtze to Vietnam
  
• cavalry became more important as time went on
  
• the Xiongnu lived in what is now north and western China, Mongolia, Central Asia, and Korea; after conquering them, the Chinese had to hold the territories against revolts by such people as the Qiang, Xianbei, and Xiongnu
  
• the Qin utilized conscripts; by Eastern Han, the army was mostly volunteers and conscription could be avoided by paying fees or giving the government supplies, horses, or slaves
  
• the end of Han China had a huge agrarian uprising that was quelled by governors who formed their own armies, and the central army was dissolved and ultimately led to the Three Kingdoms period
  
• Wei China's army depended on the Buqu that made a hereditary military career for certain families, meaning that a male relative would have to replace a soldier if he died (like in Mulan ); the hereditaries made up the bulk of the infantry
  
• Wei cavalry was similar to the Han in that they hired the Xiongnu, and provincial armies became the bulk of the Wei army; the central army was a reserve force
  
• the Chinese invented the stirrup
  
• 304 AD: Jin China collapses in civil war and the Xiongnu under Liu Yuan rebel, forming the Five Barbarian Tribes, or Wu Hu
  
• 316 AD: Jin China loses all its territory north of the Huai, and north China is ruled by Sinicized barbarians like the Xianbei, while south China remains Han in the Era of Division. this made the separate militaries diverge and develop very differently
  
• the Northern Chinese armies were based around nomadic cavalry but used Chinese as foot soldiers and siege personnel, but was ineffective and they were mostly destroyed by the Jin or Xianbei
  
• 468 AD: Xianbei take north china; Northern Wei created the earliest equal field land system and fubing system; fubing HQ commanded 1000 farmer-soldiers each for wartime
  
• Tang China had large contingents of heavy infantry. A key component of the success of Sui and Tang armies, just like the earlier Qin and Han armies, was the adoption of large elements of cavalry. These powerful horsemen, combined with the superior firepower of the Chinese infantry (powerful missile weapons such as recurve crossbows), made Chinese armies powerful
  
• Fanzhen = local general (hero?)
  
• the Tang used Arab mercenaries
  
• Song China relied on late Tang gunpowder weapons and bribes to fend off enemies such as the Khitan, Tangut, Jurchen, and Mongols; they used fire lances, cast-iron gunpowder bombs, rockets, China's first navy
  

Edited October 22, 2012 by oshron

[AllenY]

I would like the Hans too, I'm CHinese myself. I know they had very good long range weapons, e.g. crossbows, trebuchets, etc. and they were much better than the European model. They also had a much stronger cavalry department. I'm pretty sure gunpowder weapons weren't around back then though.

Add the Vietnamese maybe, with fast, agile troops and little perks. They weren't really an open field battle type.

[AllenY]

Are Eastern civilizations ever going to be implemented as part of the actual thing though, not as a mod?

[Pedro Falcão]

Are Eastern civilizations ever going to be implemented as part of the actual thing though, not as a mod?

Depends on what eastern civs you're talking about. Persians and Indians are eastern. I can't remember all the civs of part 2, but it'll at least the Huns.

[AllenY]

I mean Far and Central Eastern, e.g. China, Japan, Vietnam, Siberia, etc. It seems like they are all from a mod and that only neareastern nations will be in the real game.

[oshron]

i think the official inclusion of East Asian civs will be inevitable, but Part 1 of 0ad should just focus on the current scope: the Roman world from 500-1bc (Mauryan India notwithstanding)

[Pedro Falcão]

i like the idea, i think the team with time they will accept that, because actually are many people that want participate in the make 3D arts, Programming, Sound and others. that people can make possible create more stuff quickly.

I think the team is grateful when someone decides to provide a new civ stuff. They want a reasonable number of civs, but they can't compromise themselves with a large number, after all we all have our own businesses to take care of, uh?!

[AllenY]

Another Eastern civ, Gokturks, they were sort of Caucasian sort of Mongol, they had an empire that stretched from Mongolia to Caucasus, most of south Siberia, Most of North silk road area.