3dsmax 2010 and 0 AD

[Kyriakos]

I am thinking of moving my skills to 3ds max 2010, while up to now i was using Bryce 6.1. Bryce is ok for pseudo-3d gfx, since it is horrible at exporting the 3d models. I have used 3ds max before, so am not utterly a novice in it, although it will take a couple of weeks to be able to produce equal quality work as in Bryce.

But the good news (i guess) is that 3ds max is a great exporter, so i should be able to post some stuff for 0 AD.

Is there anyone else using 3ds max 2010? And if so can you direct me to some tutorial for getting from a finished model in that program, to a graphic that works in 0 AD?

I hope that this time i will be able to actively help, instead of just being inspired by the graphics of this game

Edited June 27, 2012 by Kyriakos

[feneur]

Some tips can be found in: http://trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/Modding_Guide and more specifically in http://trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/Basic3DImplementation (It uses Blender as an example, but most of it should be relevant to all 3D applications ).

[Wijitmaker]

I use 3DS Max, if you have more specific questions please let me know.

[Sonarpulse]

I've personally only really used 3ds Max, but I think if you really want to get into making things for 0ad, Blender is the way to go as the team moves in that direction. If you want to get the stuff you make included in the game, blender files will probably be easier to maintain in the long run.

[Kyriakos]

Well i dled Blender and had a try. I managed to make a simple ancient temple with it. The interface looks a bit counter-intuitive though...

Does anyone know where the boolean operations menu is in Blender? I want to group a negative and positive object so as to subtract the negative from the positive.

Edited June 28, 2012 by Kyriakos

[oal]

Kyriakos: It's in the Modifiers menu (the wrench icon). Click "Add modifier" -> "Boolean". Then you can click what object you want to use it together with, and select Difference / Union / Intersect. :-)

[Spahbod]

I tried to work with blender but it was very hard for me because I am used to working with 3D Max. Still there are many things that can be done by 3D Max like modelling static stuff. So if you want to make a structure, I recommend you 3dmax.

[Wijitmaker]

but I think if you really want to get into making things for 0ad, Blender is the way to go as the team moves in that direction.

0 A.D. will be compatible with any 3D software that is capable of exporting a .dae file. It is just as easy to export from 3DS Max as it is from Blender, Maya, SoftImage XSI, sketchup, etc... Bryce might even be able to export .dae files? If not, it could probably export a .obj file which could be imported and used to export a .dae file from another program.

[Kyriakos]

Bryce's problem is that it does not export the full objects, but a part of them, so it is pointless to try to use it to export. Too bad cause it has by far the best interface in all 3d modellers i tried

@Oal: thanks, found it

I am currently looking at texturing tutorials for blender, cause again it is difficult to understand without them how to make a basic texture...

[Kyriakos]

Ok, here is my first ever Blender model, which is not that special:

Will have to add some more detail

Edited June 28, 2012 by Kyriakos

[Sonarpulse]

Looks good, it's certainly more than I've done with the program.

BTW, Which is easier at the moment, getting models from Blender to 3ds Max or vice versa?

[Gen.Kenobi]

Well, atm, Blender's .dae exporter is broken for animations, as you can see on this topic: http://www.wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=15552

But besides that, I believe it's prety straightfoward in both programs.You can see it in the ADD: http://trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/ArtDesignDocument#a3dsMax

There's a Basic 3D implementation tutorial for Blender, which covers from model to code: http://trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/Basic3DImplementation

BTW, I know what you guys are felling. I was only used to 3ds Max, when the licenses made me migrate to Blender. It's quite hard to pick up at first, but there's a bazilion of good quality free tutorials around the internet. Beginner's example: http://sagefans.net/

[Sonarpulse]

OK, yeah I said blender was better based on licensing issues, and the animation thread demonstrating a consensus that moving to blender was worth the pains of conversion.

That said, I didn't know that for static models and an eventual collada target import/export both ways is pretty good. My main experience with 3ds Max is with the A Path Beyond game in my sig where importing/exporting to work in another tool (animation or no animation) is very lossy and something to be avoided.

If everything (besides animation) than can be done 3ds Max and supported in Collada can be imported with equal finesse to blender, then I take back what I said. Blender is better for avoiding licensing issues and all that. But for making static models you should be able to work in 3ds Max, if that's what you are more comfortable with, and not worry about the team finding your work less useful in the long run.

[historic_bruno]

Well, atm, Blender's .dae exporter is broken for animations, as you can see on this topic: http://www.wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=15552

The exporter for Blender 2.6x is working fine, at least well enough for our purposes, that's how all the recent ship rowing and animal animations for 0 A.D. have been made It's the importer that's broken, not an issue if you start with the model in Blender.

[Gen.Kenobi]

OK, yeah I said blender was better based on licensing issues, and the animation thread demonstrating a consensus that moving to blender was worth the pains of conversion.

That said, I didn't know that for static models and an eventual collada target import/export both ways is pretty good. My main experience with 3ds Max is with the A Path Beyond game in my sig where importing/exporting to work in another tool (animation or no animation) is very lossy and something to be avoided.

If everything (besides animation) than can be done 3ds Max and supported in Collada can be imported with equal finesse to blender, then I take back what I said. Blender is better for avoiding licensing issues and all that. But for making static models you should be able to work in 3ds Max, if that's what you are more comfortable with, and not worry about the team finding your work less useful in the long run.

Nonono. I didn't migrate because of the team. i migrated before that, because I wanted, back in that time, to go PRO with 3D - indie gaming. So yeah, Blender had the best licensing, and it's an awesome software. You just have to know how to use it. It really doesn't gets behind any of today's top commercial 3D softwares - Autodesk's And it never stops its development. I love Blender and I really have no regrets about migrating, only happiness!

Yeah. I'm former a C&C Generals Modder myself- Tidal Wars, still help out there where I can - , and all of EA's work, at least for C&C required the use of 3ds. That's why I first started with it, when I began modding. BTW, your game is prety awesome. I loved to just go and watch your updates with awesome models and textures.

[Pureon]

The exporter for Blender 2.6x is working fine, at least well enough for our purposes, that's how all the recent ship rowing and animal animations for 0 A.D. have been made It's the importer that's broken, not an issue if you start with the model in Blender.

Ben's correct, Zaggy's skeletal animations appear to be exporting fine from Blender. No issues with my stuff either.

[Josh]

Another note I'd like to add is that when exporting from 3ds max you need the older exporter(FBX Plug-in version: 2011.3.1) because 0ad doesn't support the v4.1 dae files that the newer exporter(FBX Plug-in version: 2013.1 Release (180734)) exports.

[Sonarpulse]

@Gen.Kenobi I was more addressing Kyriakos who started the thread and evidently is trying blender instead of 3ds Max. But that's awesome that you also mod C&C. I hadn't heard of Tidal Wars before like a pretty sweet concept. I'm not actually on the team that makes APB but I've made some "sub-mods" so to speak. My hope is that someday Pyrogenisis may be able to handle C&C recreations.

[historic_bruno]

Another note I'd like to add is that when exporting from 3ds max you need the older exporter(FBX Plug-in version: 2011.3.1) because 0ad doesn't support the v4.1 dae files that the newer exporter(FBX Plug-in version: 2013.1 Release (180734)) exports.

Do you mean the COLLADA 1.4.1 spec? Blender exports DAEs of that version and it seems to work. I don't know about our compatibility with the 1.5.0 spec. Can you provide an example DAE which doesn't import into the game?

[Josh]

This file is of the 3ds max teapot created in 3ds max 2013 with default export settings using the FBX Plug-in version: 2013.1. When trying to load into 0 AD you get the error "Exception caught while parsing a COLLADA document from file."

[historic_bruno]

This file is of the 3ds max teapot created in 3ds max 2013 with default export settings using the FBX Plug-in version: 2013.1. When trying to load into 0 AD you get the error "Exception caught while parsing a COLLADA document from file."

Thanks! I spent some time debugging this (you need a debug build to see the actual error), the problematic part of the DAE is:

  ...
  <scene>
    <instance_visual_scene url="#"></instance_visual_scene>
  </scene>
</COLLADA>

Note the url attribute in instance_visual_scene. According to the COLLADA spec:

For a local instance, this is a relative URI fragment identifier that begins with the “#” character. The fragment

identifier is an XPointer shorthand pointer that consists of the ID of the element to instantiate.

It doesn't say the ID is optional and FCollada assumes that's an error condition. Seems like either a bug in FCollada's importer or the FBX exporter (Blender manages to import the DAE, so OpenCOLLADA must have some logic to handle this case)

Either way, all you have to do is change "#" to "#Teapot001" and it imports cleanly

[Josh]

Thanks! I spent some time debugging this (you need a debug build to see the actual error), the problematic part of the DAE is:

  ...
  <scene>
	<instance_visual_scene url="#"></instance_visual_scene>
  </scene>
</COLLADA>

Note the url attribute in instance_visual_scene. According to the COLLADA spec:

It doesn't say the ID is optional and FCollada assumes that's an error condition. Seems like either a bug in FCollada's importer or the FBX exporter (Blender manages to import the DAE, so OpenCOLLADA must have some logic to handle this case)

Either way, all you have to do is change "#" to "#Teapot001" and it imports cleanly

Awesome and Thank You! I had been using 3ds max 2011 because it wasn't importing the 3ds max 2013 files, I'll be switching now because 3ds max 2013 has better, re-designed UVW Mapping abilities. The texture mapping had been taking ~90% of of my time in making models for 0AD!

Edited June 30, 2012 by Josh