Marian Reforms (Romans) General Discussion.

[Lion.Kanzen]

I open this topic to Discuss a new gameplay already in Phab discussion.

 

SUMMARY

Swapping unit availability as before doesn't work when units are being trained while their production building loses access to train them. see https://trac.wildfiregames.com/ticket/6888#

 

I tested all three cases below and they all work.

 

Note: Tooltip change and price increase as instant conversion is very strong.

[Lion.Kanzen]

There is a problem with the unit that will replace the Extraordinarius.

The problem is that we are not sure what unit should be in the late Republic.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_army_of_the_late_Republic

 

Modern historians have also sometimes credited to Marius the abolition of Roman cavalry and light infantry and their replacement with auxilia. There is no direct evidence for this contention, which is driven largely by literary sources' silence on those branches after the 2nd century; continued inscriptional evidence attests both citizen cavalry and light infantry into the end of the republic.[53] The decline of Roman light infantry has been connected not to reform but cost. Because the logistical cost of supporting light infantry and heavy infantry was relatively similar, the Romans chose to deploy heavy infantry in extended and distant campaigns due to their greater combat effectiveness, especially when local levies could substitute for light infantry brought from Rome and Italy.

Edited January 30 by Lion.Kanzen

[Lion.Kanzen]

May be replace a extraordinarii with Evocatii.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evocatus

https://www.honga.net/totalwar/rome2/unit.php?l=en&v=rome2&f=rom_rome&u=Rom_Evocati_Cohort

 

 

Edited January 30 by Lion.Kanzen

[Lion.Kanzen]

A mix of Centurion and early Imperial look can work with Elite troops, using Iron Helmet(cools) with Lorica hamata late + republican Marian legionnaire style.

 

Pompeyan Evocqtus.

Edited January 30 by Lion.Kanzen

[Genava55]

1 hour ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

Modern historians have also sometimes credited to Marius the abolition of Roman cavalry and light infantry and their replacement with auxilia. There is no direct evidence for this contention, which is driven largely by literary sources' silence on those branches after the 2nd century; continued inscriptional evidence attests both citizen cavalry and light infantry into the end of the republic.[53] The decline of Roman light infantry has been connected not to reform but cost. Because the logistical cost of supporting light infantry and heavy infantry was relatively similar, the Romans chose to deploy heavy infantry in extended and distant campaigns due to their greater combat effectiveness, especially when local levies could substitute for light infantry brought from Rome and Italy.

Yes, the Marian reforms are mostly a myth. The changes were gradual, Marius only contributed to a few modest things.

Quote

The Reforms That Weren’t

We can then return to our list at the beginning:

• Cohorts: Experimented with before Marius, especially in Spain. Marius uses cohorts, but there’s no evidence he systematized or standardized this or was particularly new or unusual in doing so. Probably the actual breakpoint here is the Social War.
• Poor Volunteers Instead of Conscripted Assidui: Marius does not represent a break in the normal function of the Roman dilectus but a continuation of the Roman tradition of taking volunteers or dipping into the capite censi in a crisis. The traditional Roman conscription system functions for decades after Marius and a full professional army doesn’t emerge until Augustus.
• Discharge bonuses or land as a regular feature of Roman service: Once again, this isn’t Marius but Imperator Caesar Augustus who does this. Rewarding soldiers with loot and using conquered lands to form colonies wasn’t new and Marius doesn’t standardize it, Augustus does.
• No More equites and velites: No reason in the source to suppose Marius does this and plenty of reasons to suppose he doesn’t. Both velites and equites seem to continue at least a little bit into the first century. Fully replacing these roles with auxilia is once again a job for our man, Imperator Caesar Augustus, divi filius, pater patriae, reformer of armies, gestae of res, and all the rest.
• State-Supplied Equipment: No evidence in the sources. This shift is happening but is not associated with Marius. In any event, the conformity of imperial pay records with Polybius’ system of deductions for the second century BC suggests no major, clean break in the system.
• A New Sort of Pilum: No evidence, probably didn’t exist, made up by Plutarch or his sources. Roman pilum design is shifting, but not in the ways Plutarch suggests. If a Marian pilum did exist, the idea didn’t stick.
• Aquila Standards: Eagle standards pre-date Marius and non-eagle standards post-date him, but this may be one thing he actually does do, amplifying the importance of the eagle as the primary standard of the legion.
• The sarcina and furca and making Roman soldiers carry things: By no means new to Marius. This is a topos of Roman commanders before and after Marius. There is no reason to suppose he was unusual in this regard.

https://acoup.blog/2023/06/30/collections-the-marian-reforms-werent-a-thing/

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Quote

 

Moving to the body of the text, Chapter 1 responds to Sallust’s statement (Iug. 86.2) that, in 107, Marius recruited volunteers from the capite censi; this has been central to most scholarly accounts of the first-century army. Cadiou is not the first to downplay the significance of these reforms, as he concedes, pointing especially to Rich.[2] In the first chapter, Cadiou reinforces these existing arguments against the Marian reform, presenting it rather in the context of Marius’s immediate need for haste. But if the “Marian reform” is no longer seen by specialists as the revolutionary act which ushered in the proletarian army, this does not seem to have diminished the scholarly consensus that a revolution took place. But that is precisely what Cadiou is arguing against.

https://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2021/2021.06.02/

 

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Quote

 

"He admitted for the first time to his army capite censi, men who failed to meet the normal property qualification for ser­vice. The numbers were small but, in later periods of crisis, Marius's imitators recruited from this area on a grand scale. [...] His enrolment in the army of capite censi was imitated by later com­manders in the civil wars, which destroyed the Republic" - Yann Le Bohec, The Encyclopedia of the Roman Army, p.636

"The 2nd century BCE also saw the transition from the maniple to the cohort as the basic tacti­cal unit. This change has often been attributed by modern scholars (Dobson 2008: 58) to Caius Marius, who is said to have introduced cohorts in order to counter the tactics of the Germans who were invading northern Italy toward the end of the 2nd century BCE. However, the sources, which do not explicitly refer to the change, sug­gest a change in the form of a long transitional process in which the Romans may have copied this formation from their allies (Livy 10.33.1 ; 23.17.11). The earliest reliable references to the Roman cohort date back to the Second Punic War (e.g., Livy 25.39.1 ; Polyb. 1 1.23.1-2), while mani­ples are last mentioned in field operation in the war against Jugurtha in 109 BCE (Sall. lug. 49.6). The fact that the sources frequently mention cohorts in war contexts in Spain also suggests that the change originated there and may have been due to a combination of factors peculiar to Spain." - Yann Le Bohec, The Encyclopedia of the Roman Army, p.525.

Modern historians have often assumed that Gaius Marius introduced wide ranging and long - lasting reforms that greatly transformed the Roman army and had a profound impact on Roman politics as well. The so - called Marian reforms supposedly involved both tactical innovations and significant reorganization of military recruitment and financing. These included: the elimination of the Roman cavalry (to be replaced entirely by foreign auxiliary cavalry), the disbandment of light - armed troops and the standardization of the weapons and kit of heavy infantry, the reorganization of legions into cohorts (replacing the earlier, manipular structure), and perhaps most significantly, the recruitment of landless soldiers who previously would not have met minimum property qualifications. These new recruits would be mostly volunteers and receive grants of land upon release. Lastly, it is often assumed that these reforms were permanent. Thus, according to the communis opinio, Marius permanently transformed the Roman military into a professional army that was mostly composed of landless citizens equipped uniformly. Yet, despite the widespread acceptance of this view, there is actually very little evidence for the “Marian Reforms.” - François Gauthier, The Changing Composition of the Roman Army in the Late Republic and the So-Called Marian-Reforms.

"The old view that Marius gave Rome a professional army can no longer be maintained (Brunt 1971, 406–11; Rich 1983). His enrolment of men without the property qualification in 107 was in all probability an isolated episode: the hostility which it aroused makes it unlikely that his successors followed suit. The traditional procedures of the levy, including the property qualification, probably ceased to operate in the chaotic conditions of the eighties." - John Rich & Graham Shipley, War and Society in the Roman World, p.4.

 

So it is something mostly popular in the wargame culture and in general public books.

[Lion.Kanzen]

19 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

Yes, the Marian reforms are mostly a myth. The changes were gradual, Marius only contributed to a few modest things.

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So it is something mostly popular in the wargame culture and in general public books.

The problem is that with what we replace the troops, we have problems with the replacements of the Velites and Extraordinarii.

[Genava55]

26 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

The problem is that with what we replace the troops, we have problems with the replacements of the Velites and Extraordinarii.

Evocatus is a good idea. 

To replace the velite, you could use the antisignanus.

[Lion.Kanzen]

2 hours ago, Genava55 said:

 antisignanus.

I don't found anything.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

7 hours ago, Genava55 said:

To replace the velite, you could use the antisignanus.

Currently in the patch we use Lanciarius to replace Veles. 

[Genava55]

5 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

I don't found anything.

antesignanus not antisignanus sorry.

Thats the singular of antesignanii

18 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Currently in the patch we use Lanciarius to replace Veles. 

Like you did with the Imperial Romans? Why not.

[Lion.Kanzen]

5 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

antesignanus not antisignanus sorry.

Thats the singular of antesignanii

Like you did with the Imperial Romans? Why not.

Lanciarius...is like 3rd Century AD.

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

 

 

The antesignarii or antesignarius were each one of the soldiers in charge of defending the flags in the Roman armies, for which they were grouped around them.

 

In Caesar's time this name was given to the chosen soldiers who did not carry the heavy equipment of the legionaries and were armed with light weapons, serving as guides and fighting at the front and on the flanks of the cohorts outside the classical order of the time. They were the instructors of the cohorts.

 

https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antesignano

(Spanish)

Europa Barbarorum

https://europabarbarorum.fandom.com/wiki/Antesignani_(Post_Marian_Elite_Legionary_Light_Infantry)

Armed with spears, several light javelins, and a gladius they are more lightly armoured with a simple bronze breastplate instead of lorica hamata, a new Coolus bronze helmet, and carry smaller oval shields instead the heavy scuta to increase their agility. On march, the duties of the Antesignani are to cover the columns as well as to scout and secure the area in front of the army. In a battle they can be used to screen the legions advance, to counter enemy skirmishers, or to support the cavalry if no specialised auxiliaries are available.

 

Historically, the organization of the legion began to change at the end of the 2nd century BC and in the early 1st century BC all but the heavy infantry had disappeared. The Hastati, Principes and Triarii were now all equipped in the same manner and only their names remained. Three of their maniples, each increased in size to 160 men, now formed one cohort, the new main tactical unit of the Roman infantry, besides the now 80 men strong centuria. These changes offered much more tactical flexibility to the legion. Instead of being limited to a three line battle formation, the soldiers could be positioned as easily in one, two or even more lines. A cohort was big enough to operate separated from the main army, to perform smaller tasks independently.

 

After the social war the former socii received Roman citizenship and were now recruited into the legions. However, the disappearance of the Velites and Pedites Extraordinarii reduced the legion's abilities and made it dependent upon external light infantry support. In the 1st century BC it became common to train some elite legionnaires as Antesignani to fill this gap.

 

The problem of the late republic was to find enough men who fulfilled the property requirements to serve as heavy infantry in the many and continuous wars the masters of the Mediterranean world now had to fight. This was one of the main reasons that reforms in the army had become inevitable. Earlier attempts to increase the number of suitable small farmers through land reforms by the Gracchi were blocked by senate, as many senators owned great latifundia now sprawling all over Italy. So all property requirements were abolished and volunteers from all social classes were welcomed as well as the conscripts, while the state or their generals paid for their equipment. The senate had refused to bear the incalculable able costs for the veterans so that the generals had to take care of them. The loyalty of these men shifted more and more to charismatic leaders that they were now depending on, preparing the ground for many bloody civil wars of the 1st century BC.

https://kingsandconquerors.fandom.com/wiki/Antesignani

 

Historically, by the early 1st century BC the Roman army had no infantry outside the heavy infantry formation. The velites had disappeared after the Marian reforms and the pedites extraordinarii had received Roman citizenship and became regular infantry after the Social War. As a result some of the legionaries were trained to fill this gap and fight as antesignani.

Edited January 31 by Lion.Kanzen

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

42 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

Lanciarius...is like 3rd Century AD.

 

Lanciarius is first attested in 1st century BC iirc

[Genava55]

59 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Lanciarius is first attested in 1st century BC iirc

1st century AD, by Flavius Joseph:

http://lukeuedasarson.com/Lanciarii.html

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

17 hours ago, Genava55 said:

1st century AD, by Flavius Joseph:

http://lukeuedasarson.com/Lanciarii.html

In that case, I think Antesignanus is the way to go. I'd just need to reduce their body armor even further. Here's how they look when I had Lanciarii in mind: 

 

The "Marian Reforms" ones were the blue, but for Antesignani I think all I'd need to do is give them a tunic instead of submarlis. 

[Lion.Kanzen]

More Antesignanus info.

 

ANTESIGNANI

This post is also available in: Polish (polski)

 

The Antesignani were excellent soldiers facing heavy infantry. There is a lot of controversy related to this unit. Vegetius defines this formation as “light infantry”, not reflecting its importance as a combat unit (Vegetius, De re militari, p. 34.).

 

In the “Civil War” of Caesar we meet the most sensible description of a unit that they were selected light infantrymen of assault troops. Marian Plezia, on the other hand, in his book “Słowniku łacińsko-polskim” probably most aptly calls this formation “commandos“.

 

These soldiers were armed with a spear, a few javelins(spears in the original), a sword, lighter armour (a simple bronze breastplate instead of lorica hamata), a coolus helmet and a small oval shield (instead of a heavy scutum). During the march, the task of antesignanii was to protect the marching columns and secure the area. In combat, these units protected/supported the legion attacked enemy skirmishers or accompanied in cavalry combat.

https://imperiumromanum.pl/en/roman-army/units-of-roman-army/antesignani/amp/

Original Polish source.

https://imperiumromanum.pl/wojsko/jednostki-armii-rzymskiej/antesignani/amp/

 

Edited February 1 by Lion.Kanzen

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

New Roman Reforms update pushed.

 

Phab: https://code.wildfiregames.com/D5206

Commit: https://code.wildfiregames.com/rP28021

 

Those with the SVN (development) version of the game, please test.

[Lion.Kanzen]

15 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

New Roman Reforms update pushed.

 

Phab: https://code.wildfiregames.com/D5206

Commit: https://code.wildfiregames.com/rP28021

 

Those with the SVN (development) version of the game, please test.

15 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

[Art] Improve the look of the new Roman Antesignanus unit, based on descriptions posted on the forum.

 

Ok, the Antesignanus is a commando kind unit, that is to say it fulfills roles of defending the flanks of the legion, it is a light shock and projectile troop, I don't know if you want it to have double role in the future.

 

Speaking on truth, is that the mentions I've seen in the other games where it appears as part of some modification are not very accurate visually.

Rise of Nations mod.

Is supposed have a simple bronze breastplate instead of lorica hamata.

We don't know if there is linothorax or leather armor under the breastplate.

Europa Barbarorum

Maybe like an Hastati

It appears to be similar to the Hastati in armor.

Edited February 2 by Lion.Kanzen

[Lion.Kanzen]

The term antesegnanus

https://www.tesaurohistoriaymitologia.com/es/10134-antesignani

 

Ante is a word that is understood in Spanish as antes or delante.

 

Delante is translated as forward.

And signanus comes from sing from signus or signum.

Special chosen Roman soldiers, who fought in front of banners (signus, signum).

Edited February 2 by Lion.Kanzen

[Lion.Kanzen]

7 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

The term antesegnanus

https://www.tesaurohistoriaymitologia.com/es/10134-antesignani

 

Ante is a word that is understood in Spanish as antes or delante.

 

Delante is translated as forward.

And signanus comes from sing from signus or signum.

Special chosen Roman soldiers, who fought in front of banners (signus, signum).

Another different description, probably a later period.

This to describe the role more than the appearance 

Some soldiers were trained for the singular purpose of fighting in a battle line, or firing a bow, or riding a horse. These men could become elite and irreplaceable in this position, yet antesignani were different. They were elite Roman Legionaries who were also proficient in fighting out of formation, skirmishing and harrying the enemy in an unconventional way – specialists in unconventional battlefield roles. Armoured as other Legionaries, and armed with spears, javelins and a gladius, antesignani were able to screen the advancing columns of infantry and perform counter-skirmish manoeuvres. 

[Genava55]

Antesignani means "those before the standard" or "those in front of the standard". Don't try to think to much about them, this is really a can of worms. It is not even certain if the Antesignani were a specialized troop or simply a label describing any men fighting in particular circonstances.

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

23 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

Antesignani means "those before the standard" or "those in front of the standard". Don't try to think to much about them, this is really a can of worms. It is not even certain if the Antesignani were a specialized troop or simply a label describing any men fighting in particular circonstances.

It is very little information and as I read only 2 primary sources. That they describe it differently.

24 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

Antesignani means "those before the standard" or "those in front of the standard". Don't try to think to much about them, this is really a can of worms. It is not even certain if the Antesignani were a specialized troop or simply a label describing any men fighting in particular circonstances.

 

What do you think of body armor?

Lorica hamata? Breastplate?

[Genava55]

13 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

Lorica hamata? Breastplate?

Lorica hamata.