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Genava55
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Posts posted by Genava55
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Pictish stuff (Late antiquity and early medieval):
https://cdn-animation.artstation.com/p/video_sources/000/177/093/torr-alvie-viewport.mp4
https://bobmarshall.artstation.com/projects/Poqw8n
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An article you can read with google translate:
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6 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:
I mean, it's just an abstraction. Feels better than the constant suggestion that the Celts and Germans "build" a temple that's a bunch of trees.
Well, it is unlikely that a sacred grove would be simply a bunch of trees. More probably there were clearings, enclosed area, altars etc. In some cases, the sacred grove are gathering places, able to hold at least 1000 persons. You wouldn't be able to hold a council of 1000 persons in a natural forest. A real natural forest is much different than from the modern perspective, with a lot of felled trees on the ground. There must have been some layouts.
I am not against the inclusion of sacred groves, I simply want to highlight the misconceptions linked to them.
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47 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:
German and Celtic civs' bonus? The ability to turn a Grove into a Temple? So, a choice between gathering the wood or converting it into a temple that heals and trains priests, just like a regular Temple.
The idea could be innovative but I would like to point out some minor issues:
- Firstly, sacred groves are common among multiple cultures, including the Romans and the Greeks. It can be garden like or wild like area. A Greek temple requires a Temenos and it is simply an area dedicated to the gods, it can be constructed or natural. Plato teach to his students in the public garden of Athens which is a sacred grove. Philip V attacked Pergamon and ordered his men to cut down the trees in the sanctuary of Athena Nikephoros to humiliate the city and proving they lost the protection of the gods. The Romans have the concept of Lucus and it was common in any area of the Roman republic or of the Roman empire, it is also a sacred grove, generally like a garden or a field. It can be pretty large like the Lucus of Lacinian Juno, enclosed by dense woods and with pastures inside. Apollo was revered as the god of woodlands at Kourion (Chypre) and the accounts from the Roman empire era suggest that the sacred grove dedicated to the god was filled with wild-animals.
- Secondly, I think it could further deceive people in making them believing the 'barbarians' were following a naturalistic or primitive religion, without constructed temples or shrines. It depends how you would portray the sacred grove and if the civs can still build proper temples.
- Thirdly, the archaeological record is pretty thin on the matter of sacred grove. The evidences are mostly related to locations and places where there is water. A bog, a river, a lake, a well etc. We know that water is particularly important for domestic religion too during the iron age.
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19 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:
Looks great. Should probably pick 1 shield pattern each for these guys though. Any suggestions for your favorites @Genava55?
Middle one is great
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Reenactment of decorated organic cuirasses
Spoiler
Celtic art:Pages de Archaeology_of_Celtic_Art.pdf
Spoiler
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8 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:
No, I meant "beautiful clothes" with no visual references for what you mean doesn't help.
And about the adornment, bear tusks pendant are plausible for Britain:
Glass beads too:
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https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=144555277660492&id=100063180612630
Produced on the Arebona archaeological center with Les Ambiani, historical reenactment group, this album depicts the traditional and military life of a Celtic tribe, belonging to the Ambian people, in the first century BC.The Ambiens, who left their name to the city of Amiens and its region, were a Celtic people of Gaul Belgium who occupied the Samara valley (the Somme river in Celtic language), from the lower area of the river to its mouth.Far from the clichés that often describe them as savage and bloodthirsty barbarians, the Celts were, on the contrary, a learned, refined people with a culture close to nature and master of a high quality craft.
Spoiler
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21 hours ago, Carltonus said:
My initial suggestion was that the Battersea shield be a prop addition to the Brythonic temple or other structure.
It could be too. I interpreted your message as saying this is a ceremonial item. But as a prop it is also plausible.
8 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:Not helpful.
The idea of beautiful clothes?
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5 minutes ago, Stan` said:
But it still has to be enclosed by wooden walls doesn't it?
I would say yes, this is THE feature of those sanctuaries, there are walls separating it to the outside world. And those walls weren't in stones. It can be wooden planks or clayed wattle and daub walls.
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12 hours ago, wackyserious said:
@Genava55 How about this one?
Much better. The fibula with the lambda is a bit odd but that's a minor issue and a great improvement
8 hours ago, Stan` said:I wonder if the fortifications are mandatory.
The ditches are unnecessary. In fact, most sanctuaries simply follow the concept of an enclosed perimeter, many have ditches but not all have it.
8 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:Right, but what kind of religious props could it have*?
*That would be "obvious" to players.
Well, there are some examples there:
Wooden statues and other wooden figures, weapon trophies, small shrines... I am pretty sure that something like Roseldorf's experiment would be obvious to the players:
On 11/03/2021 at 7:37 PM, Genava55 said:I added in a post above a translation of a German article about a semi-academic reconstruction of a sanctuary in Austria with the addition of elements from other sanctuaries.
The original article with the references and the bibliography (I scrapped them for readability):
You can find a critical review in English of their work:
https://exarc.net/issue-2012-1/aoam/roseldorf-rekonstruiert
Some pictures to give you some motivation to read it:
8 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:Maybe something like this?
A chainmail would be more accurate or even unarmored but with beautiful clothes.
4 hours ago, Carltonus said:Thought the Battersea shield was made around or before the time of Julius Caesar's invasion of Britain? Isn't that used as a votive offering?
The site of La Tène with its dozen of swords, shields etc. is also a votive offering.
Votive doesn't mean non-functional. The old school interpretation of nonfunctional and ceremonial weapons isn't favored anymore. First of all because we are finding more and more decorated items with visible marks of use.
https://news.artnet.com/art-world/celtic-shield-warrior-grave-1725090
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11 hours ago, Carltonus said:
The Britons still await a complete overhaul.
See:
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9 hours ago, Carltonus said:
The Gallic heroes are still a bit fantasy [and the] temple is still not really accurate.
Boudicca has a bronze girl-chested armor which is both fantasy and inaccurate:
Caratacos has the weird belt from its concept art, which is conan the barbarian -like stuff:
http://images.gamedev.net/columns/spotlight/0AD/big02.jpg
http://images.gamedev.net/columns/spotlight/0AD/big02.jpg
Cunobelin is less problematic but he has weird leather straps (purely decorative) over the body and with buckles (belt buckles are actually something the Romans popularized, the Celts used belt hooks and rings), there is also a Roman fibula on the shoulder (the penannular fibula appeared during the Roman empire) and the wooden scabbard that should be in metal and on the other side:
Vercingetorix still has a round shield (which isn't accurate), the scabbard on the wrong side and a weird belt:
Viridomarus uses the Battersea shield (which has been found in UK), a bronze fantasy cuirass, a weird animal pelt and the same problematic wooden scabbard:
Finally the temple... isn't really looking like a temple:
Honestly, you could use it for anything else and you wouldn't see the issue. There is nothing telling you it is a temple or any building with a religious function. This could be a storehouse, barracks, a noble house, a military camp etc.
The building isn't bad, except for the round shields, but it is super generic and unspecific.
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3 hours ago, Carltonus said:
Kindly expound.
This evening I will explain. I am working now.
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11 hours ago, TKogumelos said:
https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?threads/research-iberians.247627/page-3
(Yo soy John-of1999) Vuelvo a copiar el mismo enlace aquí porque, después de leer fuentes con mayor seriedad académica ("Armas de la antigua Iberia" de Quesada y el suplemento "Guerreros de la antigua Iberia" de Despertaferro), he cambiado la mayor parte de imágenes que publiqué y también he añadido información.
(*Todo en inglés porque es el idioma en el que hablan los modders.)
(*También aclarar que no copio y pego aquí la información directamente porque me llevaría mucho tiempo.)
It's nice that someone is checking the literature for references, well done.
In case, I added a few links there:
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27 minutes ago, Stan` said:
Political discussions alway tend to digress and turn into a fight but if this discussion continues to be insulting and demeaning I will close it.
If you think this way, I don't see the point to wait. Close it.
There will be always one guy coming over and starting to be insulting/offensive.
Even if you are 10 people debating in good faith, there is always someone coming over to troll or to release his rage and frustration. Either you consider the topic as being the problem or you consider it is the guy.
Edit: to illustrate the issue, how do you deal with this:
1 minute ago, artoo said:I am not even sure I can call Greta a girl tbh.
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Just now, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:
I think you full well know that the Soviet Union was not what Marx had in mind.
But is it really possible to get what Marx wanted without having it transformed into a corrupted and authoritarian state? Pardon my rhetorical question, but all the political party actually referring to marxism have the tendency to derive into authoritarian governments, limiting free speech and democratic rights.
I am not against social protection and such things. But the whole anti-capitalist rhetoric, I cannot understand it nor approve it.
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8 minutes ago, LetswaveaBook said:
@Lion.Kanzen what more than this is needed to change you into a marxist?
By marxism you mean centralized state capitalism? I always thought that Chernobyl and the Aral Sea were enough to remember that marxism isn't better for the environment.
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1 hour ago, artoo said:
The idea that humans would basically be undesirable "useless eaters" as eg Kissinger calls t it, that humans would ruin the earth by contributing C02, so that allegedly sea levels rise, is preposterous and ridiculous.
In 2021, you should have noticed by now that you don't need a doomsday scenario to have a huge socio-economical problem. Is COVID a threat to the very existence of humanity? No. Just like the Spanish flu or any other pandemic, humanity has never been threatened by those. But still, pandemics are huge issues that have enormous impact on our lives. Climate change doesn't need to be a doomsday scenario to be a threat to our society and our lifestyle.
Civ: Scythians
in Delenda Est
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