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Clodhopper

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    The Geologic Column

    in Hall of Intellectuals

    Posted

    AFAIK it's the consensus of the scientific community that humans originated in africa. source

    So all you have is the general consensus of evolutionists? Let me ask you this: What makes you think that it's true?

    Homo sapiens sapiens(us) has existed for 100 000-200 000 years if you believe the current scientific consensus.

    I don't.

    Generally evolution from one species to another takes far longer than that.
    How do you know?
    If you call belief in the current scientific theories faith then it is faith yes.
    Belief in a theory that does not have sufficient proof is, yes, faith.
    You believe in a book and a non-corporeal entity

    God is immaterial, yes. And so are the laws of logic, which, by the way, one is supposed to use during this debate. However, anything immaterial simply does not comply with your worldview, so how can you use the laws of logic? Can you prove them for me?

    i believe in the scientific theories.

    Of which you are yet to give evidence and proof.

    Flag-Burning Amendment

    in Hall of Intellectuals

    Posted

    Titus Ultor:

    and the income tax has been present in societies for thousands of years, if a bit more roughly managed than modern nations.

    Oh, really now? Which country are you talking about? If America, then here is a site about the origin of income tax:

    http://www.mises.org/fullstory.aspx?control=1597

    Stuff you want the gov't to do = Money = Taxes

    Well, I certainly want it to stop the war and unnecessary spending and protect the border from the invasion of illegals. Now, this means less money being spent.

    Unless you want everyone to volunteer for border guarding (which would cost more than the relatively small amount of taxes you pay right now)

    Now this is called exaggeration. I did not say everybody needs to do that, and not everybody is needed to to that. In fact, our own government is supposed to protect the border. It's hard to keep out terrorists when you're not even trying. :)

    Actually, because of the influx of cheap labor, local economies are boosted by illegal immigration. Especially when the immigrants are generally hard-working, and robust.

    Because such a large share of Mexicans are unskilled at a time when the U.S. economy offers limited opportunities to unskilled workers, Mexican immigration has added significantly to the size of the poor and uninsured populations, and to the nation’s welfare case load. Their much lower incomes and resulting lower tax contribution coupled with heavy use of means-tested programs creates very significant fiscal costs for the country. In effect, Mexican immigration acts as a subsidy to businesses that employ unskilled workers — holding down labor costs — while taxpayers pick up the costs of providing services to a much larger poor and low-income population. :D

    Klaas:

    Well, always there's that discussion about taxes. So let's make a deal here:

    You as a citizen can choose to pay taxes or not. If you do pay taxes you can enjoy free/cheap schooling/education, free/cheap medical care, cheap public transport, police protection, help from the fire brigades, funding after a natural disaster, no or cheap road tolls, use of the town's infrastructure (water, electricity, sewers, etc.), etc.

    So Klaas, tell me: what would happen to you if you had a house that did not have any electricity, water, sewers; and you suddenly stopped paying taxes on everything? What would happen to your house? What would happen to your car? Your property? Or is any of it truly yours?

    The Geologic Column

    in Hall of Intellectuals

    Posted

    Yiuel:

    You understood the wrong way : what I meant is that a vaccine doesn't enscrib itself in the genes, and so, will not pass on to the children. A mutation of the gene, that can lead to immunity, will pass on to the children (if lucky enough), and if useful, will endure over generations. We observe that the natural immunity is often due to a gene, and that some of one's children will hold the said gene (though not necessarly),this leading to something that crosses generations, unlike vaccination.

    Oh, I see. So you call a mutation "evolution"?

    "learned" : They then have the information to deal with their foe. to biologically evolve, you need inscription onto DNA, which do not occur with vaccination (though a by-product of vaccination can be mutation, viruses are small DNA branches there to change the DNA of a cell for its own purpose of replicating).
    Ok. :)

    dathui:

    My example is observed in that there are different sub-species of humans...

    I believe those are called, "variations."

    This is because we originated in africa...

    And you know this... how?

    and there hasn't passed enough time to evolve into entierly seperate species. And now we will probably never do so because of globalisation and mixing of blood.

    Don't you think that's rather... easy to say?

    It's evolution because one generation gets severely hurt(black plague in the 6th century), during the next 8 centuries immunity to the black plague was not needed, so it got mixed with people that lost the gene, and over the centuries it got almost removed. Then it struck again in the 14th century, severely hurting a generation(1/3 of europes population), the ones with imunity survived and passed on their immunity-genes.

    That doesn't explain anything.

    The immunization does not create an entierly new speices, but it's one of the tiny changes that transforms one species to enother.

    You keep on saying this but you fail to give a real life example. Slick animation just doesn't cut it. Maybe you believe this by... faith?

    The Geologic Column

    in Hall of Intellectuals

    Posted · Edited by Clodhopper

    dathui:

    No creature produce after their exact afterimage, otherwise all humans would be exactly alike, all birds and dogs would be exactly alike. Since this isn't the case, i'm sure you have seen differences between different humans , imho my little example is observed but not exactly like that.

    See, I told you. And your example is observed... how?

    Now i'm curious what it could be besides natural selection that made bacteria imune to certain medications, or what it was that made europeans imune to the black plague in the 6th and 14th centuries. The ones, most of them, that wasnt imune died, quite horribly, and the ones that had imunity, or their imune systems developed medications, lived and produced offspring.

    It's more like: Why would you think it's evolution? And: How would this immunization change species?

    Yiuel:

    The lymphocyte has learned.

    Do you mean evolved or actually learned?

    But with vaccine, you don't pass it on to your children (or they wouldn't need the vaccine you had taken). This is where adaptation takes place. When you have, genetically, the needed gene to survive to some change, you will endure, not your neighbor. This has happened in America's history : when Europeans arrived in America with their diseases, a large part of the native people died : they had not survived through the diseases of Europe, yet Europeans lived with those sickness as if natural and non-threatning. The Natives will no longer die as such, because now, those who were resistent enough survived and only them endured.

    Whoa. You're saying that a immunization that lasts for 1 generation is a vaccine, and when it lasts for several it's evolution? That's rather... odd.

    Klaas:

    I'm not reading this anywhere. The only thing I read is creationist theories attacking scientific theories for the sake of proving a dogmatic theory. It is not believed by faith (but creationism is), scientific theories are the results of much research, not the result of people attacking creationism.

    Klaas, we have a problem here. You keep on reffering to creationism as "believed by faith", and yet it is easy to see (from disscussions Mythos) that the evolutionist origin of life is totally believed by faith. You also keep on reffering to evolutionist theories as "scientific", when you present no evidence, no reason to believe any of what you are talking about. So unless you have anything that has to do with the SAH, you're just blowing hot air. :)
    Why should they have been carbon-dated? The specimens' date of death is recorded anyway.

    And we can be sure of that because there is absolutely no evidence for that. If reasoning is based on "what if" the only result is that not one scientific or creationist theory holds any truth.

    They can be carbon-dated to prove the theory. If they are not, than there's no use in giving me that information.
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