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Enarwaen

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    Origin of Orcs

    in History of Middle Earth Series

    Posted

    it sure is difficult to actually proclaim that 'this is the final truth about the origin of Orcs' ...

    as with much of Tolkien's lore there are loads of changes and revisions - some small and subtle - some quite momentous and 'arda'-shaking :)

    the already mentioned 'Myths Transformed' chapter in HoME vol. X deals with lots of these late changes to Tolkien's mythology.

    the thing to consider is IMO a question of philosophy: 'What do you reckon as 'official' canon'

    a) is it the published books by Tolkien himself including the Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales (both posthumously)

    :( or his 'final' words on those topics as outlined in the latter HoME volumes - although these are very often just hasty notes and short essays or comments.

    i personally tend to fall into the latter categorie - for me the 'newer' some text by Tolkien is - the 'truer' it becomes.

    that is why i assume his essay about the 'Origin of the Orcs' as a guide and a primer on how to deal with this.

    the IMO most true statements from there are the following:

    This last point was not well understood in the Elder Days. For Morgoth had many servants, the oldest and most potent of whom were immortal, belonging indeed in their beginning to the Maiar; and these evil spirits like their Master could take on visible forms. Those whose business it was to direct the Orcs often took Orkish shapes, though they were greater and more terrible.(4) Thus it was that the histories speak of Great Orcs or Orc-captains who were not slain, and who reappeared in battle through years far longer than the span of the lives of Men.*(5) Finally, there is a cogent point, though horrible to relate. It became clear in time that undoubted Men could under the domination of Morgoth or his agents in a few generations be reduced almost to the Orc-level of mind and habits; and then they would or could be made to mate with Orcs, producing new breeds, often larger and more cunning.
    We may assume, then, that the idea of breeding the Orcs came from Melkor, not at first maybe so much for the provision of servants or the infantry of his wars of destruction, as for the defilement of the Children and the blasphemous mockery of the designs of Eru. The details of the accomplishment of this wickedness were, however, left mainly to the subtleties of Sauron. In that case the conception in mind of the Orcs may go far back into the night of Melkor's thought, though the beginning of their actual breeding must await the awakening of Men. When Melkor was made captive, Sauron escaped and lay hid in Middle-earth; and it can in this way be understood how the breeding of the Orcs (no doubt already begun) went on with increasing speed during the age when the Noldor dwelt in Aman; so that when they returned to Middle-earth they found it already infested with this plague, to the torment of all that dwelt there, Elves or Men or Dwarves. It was Sauron, also, who secretly repaired Angband for the help of his Master when he returned;(6) and there the dark places underground were already manned with hosts of the Orcs before Melkor came back at last, as Morgoth the Black Enemy, and sent them forth to bring ruin upon all that was fair. And though Angband has fallen and Morgoth is removed, still they come forth from the lightless places in the darkness of their hearts, and the earth is withered under their pitiless feet.

    and finally ...

    This then, as it may appear, was my father's final view of the question: Orcs were bred from Men, and if 'the conception in mind of the Orcs may go far back into the night of Melkor's thought' it was Sauron who, during the ages of Melkor's captivity in Aman, brought into being the black armies that were available to his Master when he returned.

    this of course requires that the March of the Atani to be moved to a far earlier date to make the 'First Fall of Man' possible prior Melkor's captivity in Aman - but this change is also hinted in this very chapter. (as is the monumental change of Tolkien's concept of the Sun and Moon - but this might be best featured in another thread ...)

    [LotR] - Chapter 03 - 'Three is Company'

    in TLA Community Reading Group

    Posted

    anyway ... before we allow dust to settle in our Reading Group - i'll proudly present the next thrilling chapter ... 'Three is Company'

    This chapter features the 'original' plan of Frodo's departure from the Shire - his sale of Bag End *sniff* - a Black Rider reaching Hobbiton - an more or less uneventful romp through the country-side - and the first actual encounter with a Black Rider - and of course Elves.

    'Elves!' exclaimed Sam in a hoarse whisper. 'Elves, sir!'

    The meeting with Gildor Inglorion reveals more of the danger that pursues our three Hobbits - and it features some odd late-night BBQ and festivities :)

    [LotR] - Chapter 01 - 'A long expected Party'

    in TLA Community Reading Group

    Posted

    I especially liked the amount of humour in this chapter. I often have to smile, or even to laugh out loud when reading it. Even when it's the x'th time I read it.

    this is very much true. i also enjoy that 'Hobbit-esque' behaviour that Tolkien describes. This style is already present in the first draft he wrote for the first chapter. To me this is a connection over from 'The Hobbit' where he at times does have a similiar style - but maybe not as developed as here.

    It is also noteworthy on how quickly this 'lighthearted' tone changes to a more serious tone e.g. once the Hobbits encounter their first Black Rider or even in the Old Forest.

    And (looking ahead) if you consider the closing chapters in RotK - we sort of return to that tone ... e.g. in the descriptions of the effects of Sam's restoration work in the Shire

    And none was ill, and everyone was pleased. except those who had to mow the grass.

    i just love this quote and ...

    Indeed a generation later one might hear an old gaffer in an inn, after a good pint of well-earned ale, his mug with a sigh: 'Ah! that was proper fourteen-twenty, that was!'

    i actually use that quote in real life - whenever encountering a most tasty mug o' beer.gif

    [LotR] - Social Thread

    in TLA Community Reading Group

    Posted

    Now when will we really start to get on?

    good question, Anco! i fear our little reading group was advertised too little ... OR most of the participants are just really quiet.

    i've been thinking of starting the third chapter thread yesterday - but i'm a bit wary to do so, with just these few people actually participating :\

    what dost thou say? should we hold off chapter 3 for now and start some advertising in the general WFG vicinity ... or should we just PM those who signed up for the reading group?

    [LotR] - Chapter 02 - 'The Shadow of the Past'

    in TLA Community Reading Group

    Posted

    My Comments

    This chapter is IMO the turning point in Professor Tolkien's (at first) aimless approach on producing a sequel to 'The Hobbit'.

    The narrative so far includes themes as

    * Bilbo has reached a certain age (70 or 111) - he wants to leave the Shire (for various reasons)

    * the Ring is said to have a somehow unwholesome influence on it's bearer - making him uneasy and stirrs up unrest.

    * Bilbo passes the Ring on to Frodo (with Gandalf's help)

    * Gollum consciously seems to have wanted to get rid of the Ring by himself - and wanted to use the arrival of Bilbo for that exact action. Their riddle-game had two possible outcomes - 1) Gollum wins and can eat Bilbo; 2) Bilbo wins and Gollum makes him a present (the Ring)

    This reflects the initial state of Tolkien's narrative in 'The Hobbit' as it were back in 1937. He revised and changed that around the time LotR was first published in 1954 - to accomodate the changed narrative.

    Now Bilbo won the riddle-game and Gollum (lacking the 'present') promised to show Bilbo the way out.

    The conception (at first) of the Ring was still uncertain. For one it makes it's bearer invisible ... but after prolonged use it makes him restless and the bearer wants to bestow it upon another (unlucky) victim.

    Now Tolkien again picked up the narrative - up to the point which is the first appearance of a Black Rider behind the Hobbits in Woody End (which initially was to be Gandalf himself - but Tolkien quickly changed that).

    The sequel to The Hobbit has now progressed as far as the end of the third chapter. But stories tend to get out of hand, and  this has taken an unpremeditated turn. Mr Lewis and my youngest boy are reading it in   bits as a serial. I hesitate to bother your son, though I should value his criticism. At any rate if he would like to read it in serial form  he can.

    That 'unpremediated turn' was of course the first appearance of a Black Rider!

    <more coming soon>

    Non-Windows OSes.

    in General TLA Discussion

    Posted

    P.S. "My" specs are dual 2Ghz, 1Ghz bus per cpu, 1 Gb Ram, and the remaining "pennies"...  (still walking 2,54 cm./ 1 inch above ground for my new "baby" arrival... )

    :) ... i can imagine ... hopefully you don't bump into things ... like pedestrian walkways, stairs and such trifles :D

    Ardaquenta

    in News

    Posted

    Well, I've already done half of the articles that are up at the moment. Someone else's turn now.

    indeed - you have to be commended for your efforts :)

    [LotR] - Chapter 02 - 'The Shadow of the Past'

    in TLA Community Reading Group

    Posted

    well well well ... Chapter 2 is 'THE' place in the early parts of the story where we get laid out the story and the quest. Frodo learns of the dark past of his inherited Ring and Gandalf is at his best ...

    it is VERY interesting to follow the creation of this pivotal chapter in HoME vol.06 and to peep over Tolkien's shoulders as he struggles with his narrative ...

    i'll post some snippets soon that really stick out ... but right now i've got other things to tend to ...

    [LotR] - Chapter 01 - 'A long expected Party'

    in TLA Community Reading Group

    Posted

    This thread covers Chapter 1 of Book 1 of Lord of the Rings called something like 'A long-expected Party'

    Personal Comments

    So this is the long awaited 'sequel' to the Hobbit :)

    This very first chapter that Tolkien started working on in late December 1937 - with no clear ideas where this was going ... he sent a draft of the first chapter to Allan & Unwin (esp. to Rayner Unwin - then twelve years old - and precisely the one who badgered his father to consider 'The Hobbit' for publication) on February 1st 1938 - which by then was the fourth version already since Tolkien had started 6 weeks prior.

    An overview of the early versions of A Long-expected party (taken from HoME vol. 6 - 'Return of the Shadow')

    Version I. Bilbo gives the party, aged 70. ('I am going to tell you a story about one of his descendants')

    Version II. Bilbo gives the party, aged 71.

    Version III. Bilbo married, and disappeared from Hobbiton with his wife (Primula Brandybuck) when he was 111. His son Bingo Baggins gives the party, aged 72.

    Version IV. Bilbo, unmarried, adopted his young cousin Bingo Bolger (son of Primula Brandybuck), changed his name to Bingo Bolger-Baggins, and disappeared from Hobbiton when he was 111. His adopted cousin Bingo Bolger-Baggins gives the party, aged 72.

    Noteworthy here ... Frodo is named Bingo at this stage - as well as his friends are called Odo, Frodo and Drogo.

    Tolkien again was unsure on how to proceed - but in early March or 1938 he wrote in a letter to Allan & Unwin that the sequel to 'The Hobbit' has progressed as far as the third chapter - and (note!) that the narrative has encountered 'an unpremediated turn' ... this unpremediated turn were the Black Riders :)

    [LotR] - Foreword and Prologue

    in TLA Community Reading Group

    Posted

    Mae govannen!

    This thread covers the Foreword and the Prologue of Lord of the Rings

    The foreword itself was written by Tolkien in 1965 with the impending Second Edition of LotR.

    The Prologue is basically the introduction into the world of Hobbits and Middle-earth - it covers the history of Hobbits, their love of pipeweed and their home 'The Shire' itself. It also contains a brief account on how Bilbo Baggins came by that mysterious magic ring in his adventure that is described in 'The Hobbit'.

    Personal Comments

    I've always found Tolkien's foreword to the Second Edition (1965/66/67) quite interesting - in a sense that he deals with the ever surfacing allegations of his usage of 'allegories' during the writing of LotR and with the simple fact that he finally managed to publish the appendices as he first intended to do in 1955 when the third book 'Return of the King' was first published.

    I quite fondly remember the first time i had read the Prologue of LotR - back then when i was around 13 - i've just finished reading 'The Hobbit' during a summer vacation in Italy and i really badgered my parents to get me the 'sequel' :)

    It was quite interesting because this is the first time we really get to know those lovely hole-dwellers. We are introduced to their ancestry, their different tribes and the history of the Shire (according to their own view :D ) - and it gives a short account on Bilbo's finding of the Ring.

    It's quite interesting to know that the narrative of 'The Hobbit' was quite different back in 1937 when Tolkien set out to write a 'sequel'.

    There Gollum gave away the Ring willingly - or atleast he intended to do so :D

    We will discuss this more indepth in Chapter 2 - 'Shadows of the Past' ... so look forward to this!

    :)

    -bernd

    [LotR] - Social Thread

    in TLA Community Reading Group

    Posted

    lotr_book.jpg

    I met a lot of things on the way that astonished me. Tom Bombadil I knew already; but I had never been to Bree. Strider sitting in the corner at the inn was a shock, and I had no more idea who he was than had Frodo. The Mines of Moria had been a mere name; and of Lothlorien no word had reached my mortal ears till I came there. Far away I knew there were the Horselords on the confines of an ancient Kingdom of Men, but Fangorn Forest was an unforeseen adventure. I had never heard of the House of Eorl nor of the Stewards of Gondor. Most disquieting of all, Saruman had never been revealed to me, and I was as mystified as Frodo at Gandalf's failure to appear on September 22.

    Mae govannen, worthy Readers!

    Welcome to the Tolkien Reading Group's (TRG) first 'project' - The Lord of the Rings.

    We are going to have the shared experience of reading the book(s) within our little community here - share insights and discoveries, explore a bit the process of the writing of The Lord of the Rings and have good and in-depth discussions about the Professor's most popular work.

    We will have a timeframe of one week per chapter - so we are estimating that we will be done with the narrative itself around April 2006! (thats 62 Chapters to cover and we're not even touching the appendices yet :D )

    This very thread is going to be the 'social' thread - where everyone can post their suggestions and ideas and even criticism :) when it comes to general issues surrounding the [TRG].

    Comments that refer to the individual chapters should be targeted at the appropiate thread that will be dedicated to each chapter.

    If there are no further questions ... i'd say ... Let the Reading commence ...

    :)

    A small fun screenshot

    in The Green Dragon

    Posted

    [sarcasm]don't spend your time on that Tolkien-hack ... he was supposed to write his books following the narrative of the screenplays ... heck ... i'm sure they sent them to him ... and what did he do ... completely ruin the story by leaving out all the stuff that really made the movies work ... like the Army of the Dead cleaning up in Minas Tirith ... hello !!! ... he didn't even have that in his bl**dy book! what a waste ... they should have hired Terry Brooks or any other top-rate fantasy author ... but not that upstart from Canada :P [/sarcasm]

    great find Anco :wine:

    Dol Guldur

    in The Lord of the Rings/The Hobbit

    Posted

    Dol Guldur is Sauron's fortress in Southern Mirkwood. The hill upon (and in) which it lies was formerly called Amon Lanc (The Bald Hill - since it was a bare hill standing out of the treetops of Mirkwood - then called Greenwood the Great).

    Amon Lanc was once a settlement of the Silvan Elves - who later retreated further north (and ultimately founded Thranduil's Halls in northern Mirkwood)

    Around the year 1000 in the Third Age Sauron (with his minions) took posession of Amon Lanc and turned it into a dark place - then called Dol Guldur (Hill of Black Magic).

    I'm sure Sauron used his stay at DG to further his own power, learn news of any Rings of Power that would be still abroad and plot the ruin of the Free Peoples.

    He actively lured Thrain II (father of Thorin Oakenshield) to his doom and so received the last missing Dwarven Ring. Other than that he secretly observed the lands of his enemies - especially Lothlórien - where one of his chief advesaries dwelt (Galadriel). He forsaw the move of the White Council to drive him off (TA 2941) - feinted a retreat and openly returned to Mordor in TA 2951.

    I guess the Nazgûl just reclaimed Dol Guldur - i doubt anyone would stand a prolonged watch in such a dreadful place.

    Is that related to the black winged figure that the Fellowship saw (and Legolas shot at) on their way down the Anduin?

    that definitely was the first occurance of a Nazgûl mounted on a fell beast (in the book) - the question is from where did he come from - either Mordor of Dol Guldur ... hard to say :\

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