Alar1k

I seem to be having trouble implementing balanced maps mod on linux - I run linux mint 19.3, can anybody that knows something about the mod implementation help pretty please A simple step-by-step "how to" would be wonderful

Well since we don't agree on this full scale of hard battalion implementation i propose a middle ground - what would you say to an idea of making a different "flavour" inside the base game that would be called something like "battle of the armies" - in that type of game like we have an option of relics gameplay we could have an inbuild mod in the base game that would be oriented towards the battle more then on economy - unit battalions would cost less and be trained faster - this would be focused on the real-time tactics gameplay Personally, I don't really feel hard battalions but wouldn't mind to have an option of playing that style with 0ad factions/feel - imho single units should be the main core of the game still, but the formations of battalions should be a viable option - not standard - I really like the feel of 1 unit making huge difference, and that is something that tends to be lost in hard battalion rts-s - for example small multiplayer games on tiny maps with pop set to 50 would make the best example, especially when sparta had pop disadvantage in a23 and you really had to be economical not just with resources but with every single unit - the less the pop cap in-game the more focus on micro should be as it is now in the current stage of the game Don't get me wrong, I'm not against implementation of battalions, on the contrary - I just don't like the fights taking more value overall then economy/strategic early decisions made in early game so I think that the game should not become another hard battalion rts, but remain with the focus on micromanagement and economical development with the ability to group units for better mobility and add attack/defence/speed bonuses in battle through combining units in specific formations that can be disbanded after battle when you need them doing something else

Yes, they reduce micro, but still it is hard to implement when units gather and fight - (and I don't really like soldiers only fighting, most rts games do this like that... I really like 0ad because it lets you gather and fight with same units because it makes it stand out) - if there is an easy way to make units in formations/battalions not get stuck on every single tree in the game then it would be just fine to have battalions - but also, if we turn the game battalions only like bfme is - then you cannot train units one by one but instead wait to gather enough resources to train the whole battalion - that is not really a cheap and economically positive thing to do in 0ad - and we should also keep in mind that some players don't play 0ad for the massive battalion battles, but rather prefer city building and having a lot options to build Swiching to battalion only play-style imho is not a possitive thing because it would prolong the early game on maps where wood is hard to gather - and add to it that you could only fight with battalions and not collect as well - as things are now with economy you could train your first battalion in first few minutes (let's assume that you need to spam women/villagers to gather both food/wood to make it economically possible to make 2-3 battalions one at a time and that one battalion = (edit 10 soildier) 10 soldiers - that is 500 food and 500 wood for 1 battalion if 1 soldier now costs 50 each - and also if cav battalions are in size of 10 it would be 10x100 food and 10x50 wood for javelin cav battalion) And also to point it out removing food/wood/stone/metal and adding just one resource (money) is not an option I would like to see in 0ad just for the sake of micromanagement in fights and battalion implementation

I totally recomend that people try out Battle for Middle Earth: Rise of the witch king community patch because it is still active and going well and the game is nicely balanced with each faction having different troops and buildings - and yes, that battalion sizes do work there phenomenally well but also one should keep in mind that in Bfme games there is only one resource to gather (money) which is gathered by farm buildings passively, so I don't see that type of battalions being good in 0ad On the other hand - I would really like to see battalion formations like american conquest where captain/cheef could make a battalion along with flagbearer/shaman and give troops more moral/better stats in formations (this would be neat because in 0ad we could then add generals that are a support unit kinda like hero but low damage/gives buffs to formation - and when you go to fight you form a desired formation with the general - and if your army gathering resources is ambushed you should really feel the ambush as is - not have a prepared formation because to build/gather resources general disbands units - and units can only be formed in formation if they are in a radius of a general - this would make things super interesting - the surprise attack would still have potential to do damage and instil fear EDIT: to add one more opinion - I think that this general with unit formation aura could really help out with ingame formation issues because then the general should be necessary for the formation, and units themselves wouldn't have that option as a given, and the buffs to formations would be based in a single unit that provides the bonus so easier to implement then in a formation code - if there are heroes with existing auras this could be just like that but "masked" as a formation bonus - like for example - tetsudo formation gets bonus armour in formation - roman general that grants tetsudo would give the bonus defence aura - and when he dies battalion disbands/bonus is gone - that way we could have buffs for formations that are easier to define (each civ gets a general quarters and can train certain type of generals for certain kind of unit formations/buffs to make things easier to code/implement

I understand what you are saying - what I'm thinking though is - it is better for mercenaries not to cost wood but just food and metal; I'm even all for it to make them cost more food/less metal but if more metal overall gets implemented on the map and mercenaries indeed get just a tiny, itsy-bisty bit of resource gathering ability - then the price for them would be fine as is and balanced - but yes, as for now, I think they are too expencive for what they provide - going champion route is much more viable because they both are not contributing to eco (yes, I know that mercenaries can build, but so can women that cost only 50 food so yea, I wouldn't say it's worth that metal/food just to make them build stuff instead of regular infantry that can do both)

This suggestion is actually quite similar to my proposal on this very post where I was suggesting to give mercenaries ability to gather at much much lover rate, just like skiritai comandos do because this non-gathering troops make it imbalanced for mercenary heavy civs (carthagininans/macedonians/seleucids/ptolemies) - I mean, come on, for example now you build a colony that is a drop spot and only women can be recruited to gather wood on the front-line while other soldiers build barracks for quicker support - Carthagininas got the worst end of the stick in my humble opinion Also pretty please implement the suggestion made by @fatherbushido on this thread

They are not pointless and super expensive if you manage tradeing/marketplace well, set up metal collection with traders early on, focus women on food and men on nearby metal mines and you can do fine - I'd say in most cases maps are more problematic with the way resources are distributed than the price of the mercenaries/techs - there ought to be small metal patches spread out around the map

There should definitely be dalmatian archers with poisoned arrows - there are some historical texts that speak of a poison named "ninum" being applied to arrows in the roman period, adding dalmatian archer mercenaries would be a really nice buff for Romans in next alpha to make up for all those nerfs (like not getting siege from army camp and archers being able to destroy catapults and bolt shooters) - and I think we do Rome a disservice from a historical perspective when there is no mercenaries available even though they used the alliances with other tribes a lot (for example some Berber tribes fought for Rome against Carthage in Punic wars

Illyrian pirates archers and swordmen mercenary - available from the docks like athens have theirs maybe and give them to romans because they conquered Illyrians after the Illyirian wars But I would also prefer if we could get a balkan civ, maybe those wars for Illyiran independance from rome might make a good basis for some campaign? And also make small, but faster and more deadly ships like an Illyirian pirate ship to accentuate their dominance in the adriatic sea at that time? Hero proposal: Teuta(na) - Queen of the people: all Illyirians gain attack speed and bonus loot Pirate queen buff: Illyirian ships + 15% speed and atk damage; and are made 10% faster from the dock inside aura

Well there is a specific tech available only to Iberians and Mauryans that buffs only swordsmen, and archery tradition for archer civs too, and I made a tread a few days ago about simmilar tech for peltasts that would make them a bit better when dealing with archers

I think that there could be something like fear/bad morale that is existing in a game "American conquest" an historical rts game based on conquest of america where you can choose between south/north native american tribes and four large conquering nations - it had trample damage for cav that could also be nice to implement in 0ad EDIT; basically if an enemy army killed a lot of your units quickly and was overwhelmingly powerful, units would flee in fear and be uncontrollable until they ran to safety

I don't see a problem with arrows and spears sinking a ship - sure if you hit the upper deck not much is gonna happen to the ship and you might hit a sailor, but if you aim the lower body of a ship those arrows and spears that stick out of the hull when hit with large enough power (and people can shoot/throw things pretty darn hard when trained) - one needs to imagine those same arrows/spears breaking from the constant moving of the sea - oceans are pretty strong, even the mediteranian sea that is engulfed has strong waves and the sea is constantly moving and rocking the ship - those arrows that are shot break under the pressure and leave holes for water to pass - and even if it does not break the wood is not tightly insulated and can leak large enough quantities of water to indeed sink a ship without the need of fire arrows - those arrows/javelins are not weightless and can, in larger quantities, indeed sink a ship and do decent damage to the wood of the body of the ship I can't imagine that just 2 javelinires did sink your ship because for them to shoot it they should be pretty close to the ship for the ships arrows to kill them quickly - what is a very short order in the context of your post, can you please elaborate? Is it 2-3 seconds or 2-3 minutes of constant javelin throwing?

I think that if you make a custom made map everybody else needs to download it to be able to play it - same as balanced map mod I think

Yes, that continent map is really interesting but quite squished out for a 4v4 - it makes game a bit more intense on the borders but also leaves the potential of naval backdoor at any moment About other naval maps - maybe latium, but it has less potential than continent because the water is on far edges of the map - but at least it's somewhat balanced and water is not saturated on one side of the map in one teams' territory - as for naval dominated maps, maybe islands are interesting but since the ships are so laggy/easily stucked - I wouldn't really recommend naval dominated fights - one in 10/50 games sure, not every or every other round though - but all in all, naval dominating map seems like a nice challenge from time to time - kinda like all Kushite challenge I was in in a23 hahaha

This seems like a really interesting idea and I quite like it - one thing that came to my mind is this - what if this forge/smithy could be available at p1 and then every civ starts with some predetermined number of shield/body armour/sword (for example war civs get more swords, eco civs get body armour (better pockets/loot bonus) and defencive civs get more shields at the beginning of a game) And then when one builds forge/smithy one could invest resources gathered into those secondary resources to balance out the resources on the map - on maps where there is less wood this would help out if the forge/smithy would use more minerals and just a bit of wood like 5/10 per 50/100 metal for 1 sword - and also this would allow more viability for the market and economy in general would get more nuanced - there would be more flexibility for getting units and less pressure on grinding wood like it is nowadays One crucial thing that would really make this gimmick forge/smithy work is to implement more metal on all maps - not those huge 5000 chunks but some small, scattered metal ores of 500/1000 around the center end periphery of the map and I would even like to see a new tech in marketplace named "currency" which would buff trading that each resource trade gets a bit metal for exchange like tax - for example traders are set to trade for wood 100% on low wood maps - here every 100 wood would provide 3-10 metal based on the distance travelled by the trader when the "currency" tech is unlocked - I really think that economy would be much more interesting and realistic in that way - and it would give more viable flexibility instead of just grinding resources and keeping part of the army as constant workers to not lose momentum And also while I'm at it - this "currency" tech could be a prerequisite for bribing tech in CC - so that the bribes can be made through currency implemented by the civilisation - and then make the bribe something like for 5 minutes you see the other traders but your collected tax goes to bribery (i.e. when you bribe the time bribed locks passive metal trickle made by currency)

Main problem with ships is they get stuck easily and the path-finding around narrow shore is frustratingly hard to manage when you really need your units to follow through with orders to be efficient in battle - when the ship is carrying half of your troops is stuck on your allies fishing boat... it really is annoying to lose a game like that I would really like to see more maps like continent being played in multiplayer to break the same old mainland spam because on maps where there is no water some civs, like for example Athenians, lose out on some key units (mercenary archers/sword champions in this case), and some civilisation bonuses like Carthaginian naval traiding bonus, really don't give the civilisation to live up to it's full potential

I spectated this game, stormwalk definitely won this fair and square - he should get the points he deserves

That was exactly what I meant with my (I admit, not the most coherent) post here haha

I would like to add to this that there could be even special village phase tech only for celts - and make their units cheaper by 10 resources and weaker for 2 points of damage - and those techs would make them, when unlocked, cost the same as every faction but with +4 to damage so they get extra 2 points - I posted similar proposal for celtic/iberian javeliniers to make them initially cheaper and weaker as to differenciate them from helenic peltasts - but then to add special tech to make up for this nerfs

Hmm this seems more interesting than my proposition - I would like to add to this "forking" of the skiritai comandos - there could be two types of units - one, weaker, p1 swords that would use xiphos blades that would do small mixed but fast mix of hack and pierce damage like daggers and one elite champion swords, true successor of the current skiritai that would use kopis type of sword - and those kopis champion swords could have an anti-champion bonus like the kushite champions have

Hmmm this would be best suited for celts/iberians since they are meant to be an early phase dominating civs - and they could have 1 point of hack armour removed to justify the 10 wood lover cost - celts are half naked ingame so this would add up to "realism" - helenic civ boom is fine as it is in my humble opinion, I wouldn't like them to have the upper hand over celts early because they already have better buildings and siege for latter game advantage and the peltast tech could be placed in p2 or p3 for good measurement EDIT: seems like skirmishers already have only 1 hack/pierce armour point so it wouldn't be fair to remove it, maybe instead remove 2 pierce damage to make them cheaper early and make a tech for late game like "Iron tipped javelins" for 400 metal that adds +4 pierce to buff pierce damage for later game celts also on peltast note - there would be really nice to give back champion peltasts to spartans because as things are now they only have one champion unit which is not really that great in a meta we have in a24 where champions are viable - macedonians have spear and sword champs and athens have sword, bow and spear infantry champions - peltast champions would really be helpful against other civs like mauryans, kushites, athenians that have champion archers to make a late game sparta better - as things are now sparta tends to fall off when champion archers are on the field - skiritiai comando nerf was ok, they lost pop nerf but still it's hard to play vs champion archers, even elephant archer spam hurts because bolt shooters can now be easily destroyed by ranged units - champion archer cav is a next level nightmare for sparta (persians, seleucid military reform and mauryans)

Looking at the balance and differences between archer, slinger and peltast civs there should be something like a peltast "buff" for civilisations Athens/Sparta/Macedonian - so that they could have something like archery tradition but for skirmishers - this doesn't need to buff the strength of the attack but rather make them run faster (or as fast as they did in a23) and lover the training time for 10% - the cost of this could be something like 400 food - and this would differentiate peltast from celtic javelinier I wouldn't give this bonus to ptolomies or seleucids to differentiate helenic and post-helenic civs a bit, and also because those civs have horse archers and other units to get techs for

There should be an option to upgrade Iberian slingers and make them better slingers than Gaul/Athenian/Ptole - I have seen from a few forums that there are proposals to make Iberian slingers stand out for being better then other civ slingers from historical perspecitve so I put this proposal like this: a Make a tech at phase 2 or 3 that would add +2 crush damage and change the price from 30 stone to 30 metal for slingers and name the tech "Metal missiles" This would be like an archery tradition but for slingers - it should also take into account Iberian mercenary slingers for Carthage

I agree with this on everything accept the sword cost - maybe make it like 60 food 10 wood (10 wood for the shield) - same for cav - because 70 food for sword might make roman and iberian start a bit more food heavy early on and slow their eco production in first 3-4 minutes, if there is just one berrie spot and low hunt those civs would have a rougher time EDIT: I quite like the differentiation between weak and strong slinger cost - this would make it like weak and strong war elephants and make civs more diverse

Good point, thanks, I stand corrected then in that case make them cost the same as any other ranged