Grugnas
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Posts posted by Grugnas
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4 hours ago, Servo said:
Vision changes is good in multiplayer games.
My observations when testing the mod though just against AI:
1. Reducing the HP of skirmisher cavs by 20 greatly affects its OP rush (diminished). Reducing the spear cav HP by 10 and increasing its attack rate by .5 and 1.25 bonus against all cavs makes it more deadly.
What will be your opinion if we have a 110HP skirmisher cav and 140 melee cav but 2.5 attack rate?
All cavalry now have 50 more hp than infantry, thus in late game civs with no archer cavalry will have more chances to stand to their great range and hp. While skirmish cavalry are an "upgraded" version of skirmishers with more hp, damage, range and mobility, Spear cavalry should be strong against ALL other cavalry only but less effective against infantry, matter of fact sword cavalry is much stronger against infantry units as intended. Decresing their attack rate will make them stronger vs infantry too.. I should try different combinations of attack values to fit with 2.5 to achieve the same result they could have already. Also notice that in Vanilla version cavalry spear weirdly have less attack range than sword cavalry, matter of fact in this mod Spear cavalry has more attack range and their its seem more natural thus realistic.
Actually I'll consider to add 10 hp to skirmish cavalry, but what struggle me is that the strength of javelin cavalry will be too high in late game ( they gain more hp per phase up ) despite their attack max range reduction. ( 10 hp isn't a big change though )
QuoteBtw I tested skirmisher cav vs spear cav 1on 1 and the skirm cav won with having the first strike. If they acted at the same time it's going to be almost even.
I recall testing cavalry and actually spear cav seemed to win against skirmish cavalry, but if those 2 type of cavalry can be somehow "equal" it will still be an improvement. I am still of the opinion to have spear cav as counter of other cavalry. I will make some tests though.
That's what I noticed. By having barracks as prerequisite to train cavalry, we can have diversification of civs already from the first minutes because of their barracks costs! The idea is to allow some civs to rush slightly faster than others because of their barracks cost: e.g. Celtic barracks cost 300 wood and build faster than any other civ, this means that they will be able to build barracks asap ( even at start of the game! ) and train cavalry to raid, on the other hands they will have to use all their wood and the rush will be delayed a bit more, while other civs have the barracks cost splitted between wood and stone but they build bit slower than celtics giving the chance to ANY civ to defend against a possible cavalry rush.
E.i. Persian cavalry stable is the prerequisite for persians to train cavalry and its stone cost makes rushes easier to perform, while Roman cavalry is too easy to train because roman barracks cost 100 wood and 200 stone making the spear cav rush much easier than skirmishers. In @wowgetoffyourcellphone Delenda Esta mod all barracks cost stone and that's something i really liked, and i kinda share the opinion that all barracks should have at least a part of their stone cost.
56 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:n addition to vision range, units need "aggression range." Aggression range is dictated by the unit stance. Aggressive, Defensive, or Stand Ground, and is a percentage of vision range, so they are related.
Aggressive Stance: Attacks any enemy within 90% of vision range. Stops chasing when enemy outside this range. Some berserker units, like Thracian Black Cloaks for instance, can be capped to this stance.
This may make sense. Seems like units in Aggressive Stance won't attack units further than their vision range, matter of fact more than often war dogs stay idles on the battleground and I guess it is because of their short vision range.
54 minutes ago, mimo said:- we should change ranges of range attack accordingly (except maybe for catapult, no units would have range exceeding vision at that time)
- we may have to decrease a bit walkspeed, otherwise reducing their ranges will make ranged units more vulnerable
What i have done in this mod is to decrease all infantry units vision range from 80 to 40, cavalry units vision range to 50 and archers max range from 72 to 60. In this way they will be able to shoot at max distance only in phase 3 ( because citizen soldiers gain +10 vision range at every phase) making the usage of outposts more tactic in order to help archers into having higher range at early phase.
Still I am not sure if i should change spread according to the new max range and let units aim be less accurate though.
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On 9/3/2017 at 11:06 PM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:
I'd give skirmishers a bonus vs. ranged cavalry
Having barrack as prerequisite to train cavalry give more room to player who likes to play defensively with no need of cavalry.
Also the vision range and attack max range of most units has been reduced drastically to feel the game more adventurous while scouting for the first time.
Vanilla vision range 80 at any phase:
Monkey Wrench vision range 40 at phase 1 ( every phase give +10 vision range). infantry phase 1:
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4 hours ago, Feldfeld said:
As we both went for cavalry rush, it seems logical to me that the winner of the cav fights win the game. I keep believing that if one of us went for foot citizen soldiers, he could defend. It's true though that it is a bit more difficult with non hellenic civ.
And as servo said, rabbits are still not tamable, and i'm pretty sure that when we don't give them orders, they go where they want.
so you think that killing 5 units is fair enough to let you win the game? None changed at all as long as cavalry still has same hp and trainin time of vanilla, the way to counter cavalry rush is always the same... cavalry.
Charriots requiring double pop is a bad idea as long as they are ordinary champions and the fact that they are Charriots it is only a visual thing. Basically they will be like normal citizen soldier skirmish cavalry (maybe even weaker) while all the other cav champion will dominate the game (Roman sword cavalry champions will be even stronger after the champion spear cav nerf ).
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2 hours ago, Feldfeld said:
As for skirm cav rush : I played against grugnas in a team game and we both did skirm cav rush, the winner of the cav fights won the game. That made Grugnas believe that this mod changed nothing but i don't think so : we both had excellent hunt (ideal conditions to rush) and cav is trained later. This fact makes me believe that it is possible to defend a rush by having enough foot citizen soldiers on wood.
Watching at the replay I managed to train 8 skirmish cavalry while you had 4 only + 3 producing from the Civic Center. In the attempt to scout your base, your civic center constantly attacked my skirmish cavalry and instead of retreat, i continued my attack with the civic center still attacking my cavalry and in the meanwhile 2 soldiers came closer to my cavalry and killed 1 only as long as infantry soldiers are simple dummies then i lost half of my "army". With a better micro and retiring while in time i could have survived.
After that lost battle, i finished food ( cavalry cost tons of food for the first minutes of the game ) and the only defense i could focus on was sentry turret because it costs food. Matter of fact something like 15 skirmish cavalry destroyed that sentry tower with ease and at that point the game finished for me.
The point is that more cavalry shouldn't be the only counter to cavalry as long as there are other stuff to train / build. In this mod, just like in vanilla, once a player has a relevant cavalry disadvantage ( something like 5 skirmish cavalry number of difference) it is game over already since he has no way to turn back.
Anyway I think that 2 techs in order to being able to train all the cavalry available is too much as long as cavalry raids become less effective after the minute 5.
Simply having barracks as prerequisite to train cavalry would slow down cavalry rushes even more since the time required to build it is more than building the corral + research the tech and that the resources spent are somehow equals ( then the issue is adressed to the different cost barracks have per civ).
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The hope for a Warcraft 4 release is one of the reasons that keeps me alive (
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if their hp is so low, I bet that they won't survive anyway
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44 minutes ago, Servo said:
The game works in single player. But still rushes could hardly be prevented imo. Idk what's the purpose but skirm cavalry is still hard to check.
It's smooth. No failures.
The purpose is to make rushes less deadly but not too slow to perform.
Which kind of deadly rush?
Starting Considerations: 1v1, Low resources ( 300 ) and small size map (often larger maps with more players kinda respect the the distance proportion between neighbors of different teams) Mainland.
Most of random generated map share same amount of starting resources aka 5 berries bushes, something like 10 chickens, 40 starting trees in range (or the equivalent in wood), 1 stone mine and 1 metal mine.
Usually starting off with cavalry only is quite easy on low resources games as long as hunting chickens provides a temporary food boost that puts in secondary scene buildings like the storehouse and the farmstead, often built to grow the starting economy by reducing resources deliver time and because of the technologies available to research, because it allows to train 5 -6 extra cavalry units ( time and amount of units also depends by the skill of a player) and send them to raid an opponent.
(In no starting chickens maps like Pompeii [ or was it Volcano ?? ] successful cavalry raids are really hard to accomplish).
This tactic is very effective because it let enough food to the attacker to continue training workers and grow economy (mostly women because all the wood is spent into cavalry) while the defender will have hard times because men gather food much slower than women and it requires too much micromanagement in order to prevent the attacking cavalry to kill the most of the women trained. Successful raids badly slow down the opponent who can't counter attack because of his lack of workers, while the attacker is free to gain resources with the most cheap but weak workers he can train, women.
This happens even before a player has the time to build a house and benefit from the "The Loom" technology.
It isn't hard to imagine that soldiers can't be trained with no wood and that having the wood gather spot covered with infantry spearmen and sentry towers would be the best possible defense in terms of costs/performance against spear cavalry (whom attacks require melee distance) or infantry skirmishers and sentry towers against skirmish cavalry, but both requires quite some wood and even garrisoned soldiers in the case of sentry towers, and that having women to gather wood is much more convenient than men gathering berries (an obvious advantage for who invests all his wood into cavalry!).
On the other hand, while protecting the wood lane is quite doable, the "gridless" structures placement system makes hard to defend grainfields from cavalry rushes on the very begin of the game because, unless you are really fast and precise to build a house wall with no holes (thing that is indoable in the first 3 min of game), even building palisades would be counter-productive if they can't protect the whole area around the civic center and even work as obstacle from storehouses to place near the mines. If palisades would be able of such a task, they would be too expensive anyway and in that case their use would still keep open holes into your food production.
Despite my first approach was to keep as most of vanilla stuff as possible and to use tweaks only, perhaps having a researchable food costly tech from corral as prerequisite to train cavalry from the civic center and slow their initial rush could be a working idea.
Indeed rushing with infantry is most of times unworthy because of the economy lose (e.g. mauryans are nice infantry rushers because of their amazing worker elephants! ).
Starting rushes are only 1 of the issues that (in my opinion) "over healthy" cavalry creates on the overall game balance but perhaps one of the most problematic.
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EDIT: Spear cavalry seems to be still advantaged in the few minutes as long as it is able to gain enough food from chickens to get enough units for a quick raid.
as long as more tests are needed, the cavalry can still be trained from cc with no need of a required technology.
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13 hours ago, Hannibal_Barca said:
Update: This mod has been tested numerous times and sad to say many crashes have happened during those tests. I think it should be pronounced unsafe to use as it froze the screen for long moments before finally dying. While I admire the attempt @Grugnas is making, I think he might need some guidance with his mod. Sometimes the game crashes early on but sometimes also in mid-game and this is a lot of lost time.
All the best, pal
Hi and thanks for the interest. I am afraid that the bad experience you had due freezes and crahses are unrelated to the applied mod as long as it only modify few templates.
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we successfully played some multiplayer games despite an error displayed at start of the session. Anyway it was fun to try the new content. I'll upload some replays tomorrow
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On 8/28/2017 at 0:49 AM, mickmca said:
Ok. That suggests a question/comment. It would be nice if the tool tips or something would indicate how various things have been boosted. Even something as simple as a "+5" after the improved function. For example, fishing with an additional crewman is supposed to double the "gather rate" [sic?], but I can't see any statistical change for a boat with a crewman. With soldiers, the green plus sign indicates improved skills, but I can't find a way to see how they are boosted. Presumably, Blacksmith research boosts everybody but again, the adds can't be viewed on individual units.
Uh... what?
All the modifies done by the blacksmith are visible in the tooltips of the unit ( you have to click on the shield icon under their portrait in the middle panel ). Anyway to be sure to display all the infos i suggest you to go in the Game Options and enable the checkbox Detailed Tooltips.
About the women aura:
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This simple mod wants to modify the current alpha 22 version balance in a "conservative" way with no use of any counter system as long as units in the current version already have different attributes and this concept tries to stay away from a massive use of hard and soft counters.
The patch isn't finished since technologies aren't included yet but they will surely included in the next release of this patch as long as can I do some tests first.
Why did i publish this mod?
I think that the intent to introduce soft and hard counters by setting the attributes of all units with a given value then add counter bonuses is time spending and the result would be partially the same as simply tweaking the already existing values with the difference that the latter requires less effort, it is more polished and doesn't remove the "realism" factor like light armored units being faster than heavier equipped soldiers. A counter system requires the player to remember the bonuses and the weakness of each unit against each unit.
As long as it is a mod, here will be implemented new features and units / structures rearrangement.
Newest Version: Monkey Wrench 22.1.4.3!
Download
You can download the mod here:
Changelog:
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22.1.2: monkey_wrench_22.2.zip -
22.1.3.1: monkey_wrench_22.1.3.1.zip -
22.1.4.1: monkey_wrench_22.1.4.1.zip -
22.1.4.2: monkey_wrench_22.1.4.2.zip - 22.1.4.3: monkey_wrench_22.1.4.3.zip
Installation
Drag and drop the content of the .zip archivie in one of the folders listed below depending on your operative system.
- Vista or newer: C:\Users\USERNAME\Documents\My Games\0ad\mods\
- XP / 2000: C:\Documents and Settings\USERNAME\My Documents\My Games\0ad\mods\
- OS X: ~/Library/Application\ Support/0ad/mods/
- Linux: ~/.local/share/0ad/mods/
from https://trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/GameDataPaths
Launch 0AD and click on Tools & Options -> Mod Selection then select the mod Monkey Wrench from the list of the Available Mods and click Enable, Save Configuration and Start Mods.
At this point the mod is ready to be played.
What Does it Changes?
Units
- Now citizen soldiers loot increases with rank.
Woman
- training time increased to 10
Elephant Worker
- Now can build basic civic structures and research economy technologies.
Cavalry
Citizen Solzier
- Increased training time to 16.
- Capture Rate decreased from 2 to 1.
- Ranged Cavalry base HP decreased from 120 to 100.
- Melee Cavalry base HP decreased from 160 to 150.
- Decreased Vision Range to 50.
- NEW! Barracks removes the limit of 1 Cavalry only.
- NEW! gain more Vision Range per phase.
Spear
- Cost increased by 5 wood.
- Now has 1.25x bonus damage against Cavalry class.
- Attack rate decreased from 3.5 seconds to 3.0.
- Movement speed decreased from 22 to 20.
Sword
- Cost increased by 5 wood.
- Movement speed increased from 20 to 21.
Javelin
- Attack Max Range reduced from 28 to 24.
Archer
- Attack Max Range reduced from 72 to 60.
Champion- Capture Rate decreased from 5 to 4.
- Ranged Cavalry base HP decreased from 270 to 180.
- Reduced training time to 32.
Spear
- Now has 1.25x bonus damage against Cavalry class.
- Attack rate decreased from 3.5 seconds to 3.0.
- Movement speed decreased from 25 to 23.
Sword
- Pierce Armor reduced from 7 to 6.
- Movement speed increased from 23 to 24.
Javelin
- Iberian unit Crush damage increased from 13 to 18.
- Iberian unit Pierce damage increased from 5 to 18.
Archer
- Pierce damage decreased to 12
Infantry
Citizen Solzier
- Decreased Vision Range to 40.
- NEW! gain more Vision Range per phase.
Javelin
- Attack Max Range reduced from 24 to 20.
- Pierce damage decreased to 15.
Slinger
- Attack Max Range reduced from 42 to 40.
- Pierce damage decreased to 9.
Archer
- Attack Max Range reduced from 72 to 60.
- Pierce damage decreased to 5.
Champion
- Reduced training time to 24.
Sword
- Mauryan Yoddha Crush damage increased from 10.5 to 11.
- Mauryan Yoddha Hack and Pierce armor increasedfrom 6 to 7.
Javelin
- Pierce damage decreased to 24.
Archer
- Attack Max Range reduced to 6.
Siege
Bolt Shooter
- Included fixing patch for a bug that allowed bolt shooters to deal more damage than intended.
- Decreased pierce damage from 150 to 130.
- Decreased crush damage from 25 to 10.
- Decreased splash pierce damage from 75 to 65.
- Decreased splash crush damage from 10 to 5.
- Increased training time from 20 seconds to 25.
Siege Tower- Decreased training time from 60 seconds to 40.
- Decreased Crush damage from 2.5 to 2.
- Now has attack minimum range of 8.0 .
Support
Healer
- Reduced cost from 250 food to 200 food.
- Reduced xp required from 200 to 150 from Basic to Advanced.
Structure
Civic Center
- Increased Vision Range from 90 to 100.
Barracks
- Now they cost some stone for any civ.
Embassy
- Limit increased from 2 to 3.
- Now all embassies have same cost and build time.
Military Colony
- Removed the max arrow limit.
Sentry Tower
- Decreased Vision Range to 75.
- Attack Max Range decreased to 72.
Defense Tower
- Decreased Vision Range to 80.
- Attack Max Range decreased to 78.
Outpost
- Decreased Vision Range to 70.
Fortress
- reduced batch time multiplier from 0.8 to 0.7.
Wall Towers
- Now can't be garrisoned.
Technology
Blacksmith
- armour and attack technologies have been revisited.
Iron Hero Armour
- removed the effect +50 metal cost for heroes.
- NEW! Now this technologies reduces hero training time by 20%.
Houses:
REMOVED! Home Garden
NEW! Pair Tech:
Home Garden:
- Increases houses garrison limit from 3 to 4 and big houses limit from 6 to 8
- Increases by 20% the population limit given by houses
Home Harem:
- -50% training time for women trained from houses.
- Increases by 20% the population limit given by houses
Elephant Stable
- Now the elephant stable is buildable in village phase.
Farmstead
- Grainfields gather technologies increase from 15% -> 15 -> 50% to 25 % -> 25% -> 25%
Storehouse
- Wood/stone/metal gather technologies increase from 15% -> 15 -> 50% to 25 % -> 25% -> 25%
Library
NEW! Improved Siege Tower
- Defense tower technology "Crenellations" affects also siege tower.
- Defense tower technology "Arrow Shooters" affects also siege tower.
- Defense tower technology "Murder Holes" affects also siege tower.
- Defense tower technology "Sturdy Foundations" affects also siege tower.
Fortress / Siege Workshop
Armor plating
- Now increases also Crush and Pierce armor by 2 levels.
Hero
Athene
Themistocle
- NEW! Now Naval Commander aura globally affects units trainable in docks.
Gauls
Brennus
- Metal loot increased from 15 to 20.
Rome
Fabius Maximus
- Now the aura has a 60 mts range.
Scipio
- Aura range increaed from 10 to 60.
Seleucid
Anthiucus the Great
- Now the aura has a 60 mts range.
Ptolemies
Cleopatra
- Consort aura range increased from 30 to 45.
Civ Bonus
Athene
- NEW! The bonus is limited to infantry citizen soldiers only.
Carthage
- NEW! Now Carthage can research a technology to upgrade mercenaries to Elite rank.
Team Bonus
Rome
- The bonus is limited to infantry citizen soldiers only.
Enjoy the few changes.
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37 minutes ago, leper said:
I'm not quite sure what you are asking, but if you want two (or anything that is greater than 1) entities with different available things you will need different templates for those. I guess you could either provide two different fortresses in the builder list, or provide only one that makes use of the upgrade component to change into the other (or into one of the specialized two).
The intent was to have the same fortress template but fortress entities able to train different units through a technologies pair researchable every time a new fortress entity is placed, but using upgrades would certainly work.
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Cvic Centers, Military Colony, Fortresses, Sentry/Defense Towers, Outposts have a build restriction distance independently if the chosen place is or not in your territory influence.
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4 hours ago, leper said:
Modifying technologies or entity lists (that can e.g. be built) is both confusing to users and creates a lot of possibilities for hard to detect bugs and increases the complexity of the whole code.
What you could do (which is a workaround if you consider modifying technologies something important) would be to provide autoresearch technologies that require both the defense tower tech they mimic (for siege towers) and the siege tower tech. That should have the exact same effect, without having to modify technologies. It does however increase the amount of technology files you have to create and maintain (since a change in the defense tower tech also requires you to update the siege tower tech).Thanks for you advice, I did it.
I have one more question: as long as researched technologies applies to units templates ( f.e. already trained mace champions, spartan champions, mercenaries get the technologies effects ) is this "rule" valid also for structures entities? I was trying to have more Seleucid fortresses entities have different reserached technologies in order to let some fortresses train roman army units and other which train traditional army, but I fear I should abandon the idea.
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I noticed that most of the questions are gathered here thus I just joined the crowd.
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Like the title says: is it possible to modify affected units by a technology through another researched technology?
What i have in mind isn't a technology required to unlock another technology but a technology reduired to unlock another affected unit by a previously researched technology:
e.g: I want all the previously researched and the next new researched techs affecting defense tower technologies to affect also siege towers.
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18 minutes ago, fatherbushido said:
You can still download it.
May i please get the reason behind this suggestion? I really can't get it and I fear I have no time to download an old alpha for a test only. Indeed I can imagine what would happen with bolt shooters "equipped" of more crush damage.
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25 minutes ago, fatherbushido said:
I was serious when talking of a17
I never played alpha 17, i had knowledge of the game at the end of alpha20.
After a quick look I saw that there was a big crush damage nerf to bolt shooter as long as it was able to destroy buildings. While buildings armor didn't change at all after the giant rebalance. bolt shooters had more tweaks until a20 where their attack rate has been reduced by 1 second from 5 seconds to 4. Is that relevant? I can't get your point, explain please.
For sure bolt shooters are more effective also against champions since champions were nerfed in a21 ( pretty good stats nerf even if this is true for infantry champions only as long as ranged champion cavalry has 270 hp and melee champion cavalry has 300 hp despite the performance gap, but this is another topic), thus bolt shooters are able to kill waves of enemies and make pressure on buildings aswell. Basically training bolt shooters is faster than training champions as long as bolt shooters have 20 sec training time and roman army camp has a quite low batch time multiplier.
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17 hours ago, fatherbushido said:
What about a17?
what about this replay? We played a game with user1 Pro Balance Mod
and what we noticed is that Scorpios can be a quite nice support as long as it kills champion cavalry with 2 hits and "snipes" fortresses from great distance.
Scorpios had armor and increased crush damage technologies researched (not Will of Fight).
This isn't a pretension to change and rechange stuff but a concern on an unit that may influence games in alpha 23 (if there aren't any balance plans on the agenda) in a way that someone likes to call "OP".
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I am ok with that, but the point is that if 1 bolt shooter can deal that damage to many units, consider when there are many bolt shooters at once (they cost 2 population and train in 20 seconds). If no organic unit can reach the bolt shooter in order to get melee range, perhaps a siege could (bolt shooter crush damage doesn't really help on this point). As you said, alpha 22 is really misleading. Pehaps in svn they aren't that "uncounterable" even if massed.
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1 minute ago, temple said:
You have some nice questions about the role of the bolt shooter.
But I want to say that the a22 bug is enormous. You should be basing your thoughts on how bolt shooters were in a21, because unless your enemy's really packed together, that's what it's like in svn. Testing now, even against box formation they only do about 50% more damage than in a21. Well, I guess they have extra health and better accuracy, too. But my point is that a22 is very misleading.
Bolt shooters in a21 weren't worth the effort because they had lowed hp and slingers used to crush any siege (we can say that in a21 bolt shooters were never used in multiplayer games i had the pleasure to partecipate).
31 minutes ago, fatherbushido said:Well, next time, give the mins to look at. (edit:
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Well so 42 boltshooters (!) don't let people come near them. What do you want to conclude from that?the point is that at equal population cap a player should be able to counter any unit indipendently from the civ.
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7 minutes ago, fatherbushido said:
I meant 0 H/P/C non splash damage.
why not, if you believe that value is more appropriate. (i updated the first post with an example replay).
Vox Populi - The Ultimate Balance Mod
in Game Modification
Posted · Edited by Grugnas
I think that as long as the game isn't a simulator, playing with vision ranges makes game interesting especially when lower vision ranges make the exploration of the map more challenging and despite the unexplored map may feel claustrophobic, once the map is explored having low vision range open the door to more strategies like outflanks and expansion near the opponent territory influence. Also outposts are barely used when units have higher vision range in comparison ( 1 idle cavalry unit on the map gives higher vision range than a garrisoned outpost without vision range extension tech ).
Anyway i strongly agree about modify vision range with elevation.
I can't get the point of decreasing units movement speed though.