Vaevictis_Music

Yes, and yes definitely. I'm also fairly sure that you'll be able to select your own playlists from your music collection.

As a belated Christmas present and the final part of our Christmas/New Year's promtion effort, we've added a new music track to the Audio Page; a piece of battle music for the Roman civilization. Enjoy, and may the new year bring you much fortune and many war elephants.

On the team, we've had a recurring discussion about the need for an actual music department per se. In the end, it's been whittled down to, well, just me planning the use of music and composing the stuff by myself. We've had quite a few musicians onboard over the years, which has always led to the realization that, while more musicians means less workload, it also invariably leads to very little consistency in the music itself. So until I break my back on the task (which likely ain't happening until the game itself is near completion), we'll likely continue that strategy. If there's anything at all you can contribute on the programming side, I'd urge you to go for it, though.

Hey Fred, I'm in charge of the stuff you're asking about. If you have any detailed questions, you can always PM me. Also, suggestions from everyone are welcome, as we're currently debating how exactly music will work in-game at the moment. The tracks on the music page are representative of styles, but maybe not how tracks will actually function in-game.

To clarify: It's not really a community boost we're looking for. Since we're still some time away from release, it's not a larger fanbase we need, as such. What we're looking for is spreading the word for the purpose of attracting new team members and talent. So sites which deal with gaming *and* game development are interesting to us.

Good post, Bobby. Let's close this thread up and end the drama on that note.

- [Post by Achilles_Knee Deleted.] One-line flames contribute nothing to this. Consider it an official warning.

- [Post by Achilles_Knee Moved.] Since this post was solely addressing me and consisted of advice for me personally, I've moved it to my Inbox. I've read it, understood it, and basically disagree with it. Let's leave some room for the actually constructive debate that's going on parallel to ours. Further personal messages can be sent via the Personal Message function.

AK - First of all, I'd request that you drop the strategy of making it seem as if you've been personally attacked. It hasn't happened anywhere in this thread in the way that you describe it. You keep using rhetorical special effects like 'sneer', 'arrogant', etc. I'll repeat: Every team member who has participated in this thread has gone out of their way to be polite to you, to stress how they respect your opinion, etc. My last response to you was definitely the only direct one. Already before that, you had told us how you felt that fans 'get their head ripped off', how you had felt it as a 'direct slap in the face', etc. Very intense rhetoric. And *all this* from a bunch of polite answers, always peppered with smilies to make sure you understand this is not personal, and lots of consolidating disclaimers (Michael makes sure to note that "we appreciate your stance", and ends his post with a "thanks for your patience".) I'm sorry to actually have to spend the time dissecting the chronology of the thread, since everyone can just go back and read, but as far as I can see, *this* is what you refer to as having your head ripped off and slapped in the face?? People respond to you with civility, and you feel personally injured? That is why I think you need to take a breather and that you're making this way too personal. Not because we don't want questions about the game, but because there is a line beyond which we can't really give any answers, and everyone needs to be able to calmly accept that. I stress 'calmly'. Now: It's only arrogant if you operate from the fallacious standpoint that there *must* be some sort of obligation somewhere, and that we're neglecting it. Otherwise, it's simply a description of how things are. I'm beginning to think that *if* there really are that many who feel as strongly as you do, then putting up a forum and a website was our real error. It seems that they represent a 'promise of more' to you. We don't have any obligations, because we're careful to communicate that we're unable to promise much. What you seem to forget is that people aren't here in this forum because of some grand PR campaign that we've conducted, or advertisements all over the web. People stumbled in here because of word-of-mouth, or by a random search, perhaps. They found us, saw what we were doing, and decided to stick around and watch. To talk about a 'fanbase', really, isn't very helpful, because that brings to mind what Matei calls "loyal consumers or a sports-fans". Frankly, given a choice between a dedicated fanbase and some quiet-time to finish the game, we really need the latter a lot more than the former. That's what the 'fanbase' needs to understand. Later, once we have a product, we can talk about building a fanbase, but to feel that we have obligations because of how the company > fanbase relationship *normally* works, is simply premature. It's strange that you would write this, when you're smart enough to know that there's no *reason* for us to be offended by people who want to play our game. Why would you suggest that? It should be easy to separate 'being offended by people who want to play our game', from 'being unable to do a whole lot for them at the moment'. I'm going to ask this once, and only once, since it's usually a sign of a completely deteriorating debate - but can you provide any substantial evidence of team members universally reacting with arrogance, or is it just more rhetorical groundwork for justifying dissatisfaction that the game isn't ready yet? I frequent these forums a lot, and I only see team members behaving with the utmost civility and friendliness to fans - mainly because that's how fans behave towards us. Michael even went as far to apologise to you - for telling how things actually are at the moment. This is definitely the first time I've seen this kind of hostility towards us, and I believe it's the first time a team member has ever had to be frank with a fan. Here's some more nitpicking. You keep complaining that you were called a flamer and arrogant. I made that statement in response to you 'giving us a dose of reality', which I still think was an arrogant comment. (Don't you?) Apart from that, the only instances of the word 'arrogant' and 'flamer' occurs in your *own* posts, the former repeatedly describing our team members and their actions. That's food for thought. Alright, bottom line: We have no obligations to fans. In fact, we're not actively trying to make new fans at the moment. If people drop by and decide to stick around, that's great, and that's what the forum's for, but they need to understand the premises if they are to have an enjoyable time. For one, we can't regularly give any more updates than the many updates we're already giving. Secondly, we can't give any dates. If people who already know that still ask about a date, we won't be offended, or rip their heads off, but we won't give any dates either, and if someone takes offense at that, that's their own call. Finally, we want a friendly and civil attitude around here, and do our best to foster it, but if we're being insulted, we're still only human beings doing voluntary work, and as such, we might give a frank and direct response. That's all there is to it. If people have anything new to add to the debate, they're welcome, but more of the same will be deleted.

Achilles, are you sure that it isn't frustration with the waiting time that's carrying over into frustration with the communication? I'm not really seeing what it is you want that you're not getting. You're getting visual representations of the game's progress whenever we release screenshots and showcases. And you're getting the intricate progress details from our feed on the front page. Yes, they're technical and not always understandable to anyone. I know I don't have a clue what many of those updates mean. But that's just the thing: Development consists exactly of thousands of little baby steps like that which only make sense to the person or the department that contributed them. Now can you see why we can't give you a date for completion? That would require that someone translated updates like: - "improvements to app_hooks" - "added sound cone functionality" - "Tidied up some code." into an overall percentage. No one's doing that at the moment. Normally, a game company would have to gauge their overall progress in order to satisfy publisher demands. We don't have those. Therefore, we keep building the game brick by brick without giving a fig about whether "fixes for vc8 optimization" pushes us from 74% complete to 75% complete. So to sum up - you're getting visual feedback through the screenshots, and you're getting technical, day-to-day feedback through the front page feed. You're requesting more than that. Fair enough. Suggest to us in which form we should give further feedback. If it's reasonable, we could implement it for you. About the calc image - you're suggesting that it was intended as a slap in the face. It wasn't - it was meant as a joke. You might be offended because you don't expect to see such frivolities from real game companies. Well, we're not one. We reserve and deserve the right to lighten up the mood and keep the tone light - not only for you, but for ourselves too. We're just as much unpaid users as you are, and we have to deal with the waiting time as much as you. We've had internal team discussions about how much professionalism to exude, and we believe we've found the right balance between actually getting stuff done, and still being able to laugh a bit at ourselves and each other in public channels. I think most 'fans' hanging around here have adapted that stance very well, resulting in free and open discussion between team and non-team people instead of viewing us as two separate entities. But if you feel that tone is lacking in seriousness or professionalism, I can understand why you'll want to leave. Finally, to actually answer your many questions: To be honest, yes, I believe you (personally) should. From your posts, it seems like the waiting time gives you more frustrations than pleasures, and that's a good reason to give the 0 A.D. forums a rest, in my opinion. If the waiting type is no longer a positive experience, which it actually *can* be, when you're in good company, then yes, you should start thinking about other things, for your own sake. This is what I'm talking about - diverting your attention elsewhere instead of waiting on a project which you don't feel gives you enough feedback. No. No one has played a full game of 0 A.D. yet, let alone a multiplayer game. We have some ideas for how we *want* multiplayer to work, of which some are outlined in our released documentation, but that doesn't sound like what you're looking for. If we're finished. Even disregarding that development started a lot later, I believe this is where the *real* flaming started. All team members have gone out of their way to be civil towards you, but to 'give a dose of reality' to a team of over 20 members of whom many work daily on this game for no pay, in areas that you probably don't even know exist - this is where the thread went from civility to plain arrogance. We, as a 20+-member entity, have some *very* accurate ideas of what 'reality' entails. We've learned the hard way over the years. We also exchange doses of reality regularly in our private communication channels, when new problems come up and new challenges have to be overcome. If you feel that 'reality' equals reminding us that "this project is 6 years old", then thank you, but we know exactly how old the project is, and it is of absolutely *no* relevance to our current situation. I honestly don't see what you're getting at. Even if there had been 'rumors of something happening' since 1980, that still doesn't change where we are now, which challenges we're facing, what tasks we still have to do, etc. We try to limit ourselves in making actual promises, and when we do make them, we try to keep them. But we can't really be held responsible for 'rumors of something happening', because frankly, we're too busy making a game. Absolutely not. The fact that a group of people come together to make a game doesn't put obligations upon them to share *anything* with non-team-members. Hell, if we wanted to, we could develop this game solely for the purpose of playing it ourselves. That we offer people the chance to comment on forums, or make a webpage with info, or give regular updates, or respond to questions, or actually *play* the game one day, should *not* be confused with any duty to do *even more* to *anyone*. Take a look at http://www.limbogame.org/ - a website for an upcoming game. The released information on the game so far is pretty much limited to what you can find on that website, and it has been like that for maybe 2 years. The game could be abandoned at this point with no one knowing. Now, do you feel that the makers of this game are betraying their fanbase by not giving regular updates? Personally, I think it's commendable that they've actually taken the time to create a website and share at least little bit of information. They should be able to do this without being under obligation to give more and more. Similarly, I don't see why our taking the time to put up a comprehensible 0 A.D. website and a channel of communication can actually be taken as a reason for demanding *even more*. Now, if we received funds from fans, or planned to take money for the game, or if you had contributed *anything* to the project, then you might have a point. In that case, we would be under moral obligations to 'give back'. But you're asking if we feel we owe you something. The answer is unpleasant, but honest: We only owe something to the people who have given their time to the project. As a final word, I'd like you to go back to post #43, written by you. It says: Preceding that post, no one has made anything that even came close to a snide remark towards you. Rather, team members have gone out of their way to be civil and polite. I'd advise you to read through the thread and find even *one* instance of anything that can be construed as a flame against you. I'd say that this post is the first with even a hint of brutal honesty from a team member. Which brings us back to my first line - that I think your impatience with the game is carrying over to impatience with extremely civil, friendly and dedicated team members. In any case, good luck with your absence from the 0 A.D. forums, and I hope that you'll come back again to play the game when the day comes - and that, even if the year is 2008 by then - you feel recompensated and that maybe waiting was part of the experience after all.

Yup, that should make them giddy. Give me a week's notice after the cinematic is completed, and I can put a music track to it for extra effect (even if we have to put video+audio together in a video editing program - should be worth it). However, we should take care to make sure that such a New Year cinematic is absolutely flawless, and as polished as our screenshots.

Go to the Screenshot Gallery, either by clicking Media on the left or clicking the screenshot thumbnail on the right (when you're on the front page).

There'll be a screenshot up tomorrow (1st of November) which might serve as a nice indicator of some of the advanced features that have been implemented. Stay tuned.

Yep, it was all in-house except for the narration. It was pretty good for the time (3½ years ago), although I'd love to be able to see what we could do if we went for a similar project today, with our new skills - but I think our priorities are elsewhere atm.

While there haven't been any specific 'plans' made, we occasionally throw out some new tracks whenever we're in a slow news period - so it's not unlikely.