AI Wishlist

[Mabuse]

I am very sceptically looking at the "learning aspect"

not becasue then i have nothing left to do, instead, because i have expierience

these "my ai will learn" thingy is more complicated than "simple" scripting.

Why not make the AI use a (several) strategies that "work", and also try to react upon certain things.

Then a nice diplomacy sytem that make 8 Player ("free for all") a bit more interesting and it is ok.

To make an AI that really learn for itself will not happen within the time-lmit this game should be finished

There are some things like it the SCN/MAP is restarted the AI has "saved from the previous" Game the position of the (warning AOC example) "sheep" or other things that are required as soon as possible.

to make AI "adapts" to the tactics of the Human it plays against is either:

nonsens, or simply a good AI that is able to react upon certain situations

nonsens, becasue a working strategy wil already take some things into account, and the things that could "counter" it should be evaluated and if they happen the ai need to react upon that. a learning AI (what will the AI learn ? How to play the game ? Why not tell it how to play the game )

anyway i am sceptical upon learning AI

Usually scripting beginners hope to make their wok shorter by let the AI do all the work they do, but unfortuanately (for them)- the AI are far from being able to "learn" anyway

like i said, some things could be worth to be "remembered" (saved) when the Máp is restartet

(so we need to think about which information would change our way we play if we would knew them in advance)

but is only an OPTION no nessessity. First basic things need to work.

Edited February 8, 2006 by Mabuse

[Mabuse]

btw, i cannot think of too many things that would make many differences thogh

starting buildings can be ALWAYS checked per MAP-Cheat (or in AOC cc-cheat) to evaluate the starting situations, something that a HUman anyway knows - if he plays an SCN always.

so starting situations of the enemies and othe rplayers is of course somehtign that will influence your startegy and knowing them early (as a result of "learning") will help to set up a successful strategy

(an Ai specially written for a cerain SCN will of course also take that into account automatically - so if i say that this cold be of use - i mean of course for an "all purpose ai")

and then position of certain things like resources will help to get them if they are needed.

also "choke points" could be somthing to be remembered.

(anyway just optional)

Edited February 8, 2006 by Mabuse

[martin]

well what i meant about learning was not totally concocting new strategies but having lots of different strategies and learning which to apply in certain situations - land invasion from ships, I should respond with planes because that worked and ships didn't; that sorta thing.

[Zeusthor]

I think both types of learning are possible. I just can't say if there will be both or even one of them implemented at this early stage. Learning is a very optional feature for the game's completion.

[Mabuse]

- land invasion from ships, I should respond with planes because that worked and ships didn't; that sorta thing.

i cannot imagine how this should/would work in reality , but maybe i have just too little imagination

and beside that: Why does the scipter of the AI no know that ships don`t work vs Invsion from Ships (assuming your example is right)

how will the Ai recognize that and so on and so on ...

[Mabuse]

At least i hope that this learning feature can be disabled, becasue i don`t want my AI learn things, and the next time i start it, it do things i did not tell it

[Mabuse]

how will the Ai recognize that and so on and so on ...

and so on and so on ... ==

and change mimiltary buildings, economic distribution, upgrades and so on -

and i say it again: I cannot imagine how this should work anyway

[Zeusthor]

Mabuse, the way I imagine it would work is that the scripter codes in how the AI should act and react to a situation just like you would in AOK/AOM. Learning would be an optional goodie in a scripter's arsenal where he can tell the AI to figure out how to handle this situation because there is no one simple way to define it in code. Maybe there were too many variables in the situation. It wouldn't be something automatic that your AI starts ignoring your coded instructions. It would be something you willingly applied to your AI script. Of course, this is just things I throw around. I haven't defined any implementation details. I haven't even finished any type of clarification and solution definition for AI. I just know I want it to be capable to support a scripter's imagination while maintaining simplicity.

[martin]

At least i hope that this learning feature can be disabled, becasue i don`t want my AI learn things, and the next time i start it, it do things i did not tell it

I think we're talking abiout different types of AI - you're talking about unit AI I'm talking about enemy comander AI

[Mabuse]

i don`t think you know what i am talking about -

hell, i guess yu even don`t know what you are talking about.

but anyway - feel free to explain it more -

yeah, oyu want that the AI can learn, for example it planes don`t work it should use ships

q1: how does the AI know that planes didn work ?

q2: (after q1 is answered): how do the ai know that a cerain thing was responsible for a defeat

q3: how can the ai calculate something more effective ?

q4: how can the ai perform it ?

q5: why does the ai then not play the right game from beginning on ?

q6: what are you good for then ?

and so on and so on -

don`t know what you mean with laerning -

i can only imagine some very basic parameters to be saved if the map is restarted. that would be learning that i support and can imagine to be implemented in short time

Edited March 29, 2006 by Mabuse

[martin]

i don`t think you know what i am talking about -

hell, i guess yu even don`t know what you are talking about.

but anyway - feel free to explain it more -

yeah, oyu want that the AI can learn, for example it planes don`t work it should use ships

q1: how does the AI know that planes didn work ?

q2: (after q1 is answered): how do the ai know that a cerain thing was responsible for a defeat

q3: how can the ai calculate something more effective ?

q4: how can the ai perform it ?

q5: why does the ai then not play the right game from beginning on ?

q6: what are you good for then ?

and so on and so on -

don`t know what you mean with laerning -

i can only imagine some very basic parameters to be saved if the map is restarted. that would be learning that i support and can imagine to be implemented in short time

Q1)

OK, so say you are invading the AI island with transport ships. Image that the island has "strategic locations" (either: randomly distributed, near collections of buildings or near battle hotspots [probably2]) - so you take a strategic location using your invasion that originated from ships at the time the AI was responding with planes. So the AI now knows that planes aren't awfully affective and will use some kind of reinforcement learning system to learn this.

Q2)

Well if you atack with ships and the AI responds with planes that's a pretty linear battle (implies only one attack unit and one response unit). So if there is a reinforcemnt system the battles will become a bit more complex, the computer wil learn in this case that responding to approaching transports with plane will not work, so maybe it'll use boats or artillery this time, however when you land say you unload some men and some artillery. Now when the computer attacked your island earlier in the game you attacked its army with artillery and it killed the artillery with archers (say), so now its reinforcement learning will come into play and direct it to use archers. It will also have learned earlier that planes are good against men, so it'll send in some planes, which will probably succeed - if this response succeeds then the learning for attacking artillery with archers and men with planes will be reinforced, however if the artillery gets to a strategic location the the archers will be proved ineffective and a new node will be created for armies of men and artillery (linked to archers and planes with a negative connection and a neutral connection to everything else). If of course the combined approach works then no new nodes are needed.

Q3)

pretty much answered this one, the AI creates a load of strategic points (around clumps of buildings, near resources whatever) - these points cannot be seen by people but they are areas that are likely to be hotspots. If an army captures a strategic location (destroys the buildings that made this a strategic location, killed the villagers mining the resources that made this a strategic location etc) then the response the AI used is ineffective.

Q4)

umm... that's answered above at great length and I'm not going to repeat it.

Q5) + Q6)

eh? rephrase the questions :?

[Mabuse]

sounds strange.

surely we miss each other.

what you describe fit into my imaginaion of smart scripted ai, and not a "learning ai"

script it for yourself and we are fine. it has nothing to do with learning

things like:

----------------------------------------

"It will also have learned earlier that planes are good against men"

-----------------------------------------

should be known to everyone before the ai is scripted so there is no more need for the AI to learn this.

but no need to discuss it anymore, surely we completely miss each other

[Mabuse]

what you describe fit into my imaginaion of smart scripted ai, and not a "learning ai"

or better said, what you deccribe is atndard in almost all ai.

my ai train archers and attack the enemy (perhaps with few units to scout) - and see that enemy trains Cavalry - then my ai adds spearman to the mix (assumed spears do good versus cav in the game of course)

nothing special, nothing learning.

[martin]

well mine is a learning AI by definition - because it uses a reinforcement lerning system

What you said above about planes being good against men being known by the person who scripts the AI is not true, planes arent always good against men - what if their men are always armed with an AA gun? The entire system would also hae emergent properties to define the entire AI strategy from the simple reinforcement system...

[Mythos_Ruler]

What he meant was, there would be a whole list of gameplay variables that would be known to the script beforehand and need not be "learned." Your "men with AA" example works against you still, because the AI designer would know this before hand and thus his AI script would also know this beforehand. It would be this way:

Rocket Soldiers > Planes

Planes > Rifle Soldiers

The AI would know this already, thus, the AI probably wouldn't attack rocket soldiers with airplanes unless necessary.

[martin]

But then you need to script an AI every time there is a new unit, and every time someone makes a mod for the game. My way I make a mod, with some new men, then I need to script the entire AI or just run the game a bit with learning and saving or experience active

Edited April 21, 2006 by martin

[Mabuse]

its anyway not working like you imagine

[Mabuse]

But i know that the reason of all this

"i want to have a learning ai"

because the people are not interested in scripting and making thoughts on their own, instead they think they run a fe games with ai and then its perfect.

man if this owuld work like oyu think, then somebdy would hve scripted this learning ai and it would be used in every RTS game, becasue the ai could simply learn it -

a MOD with new units or differnt stats is nothing less than a differtn game.

and if its not completely different than you would just need to ADAPT your current ai -

but oyu imagine to play a few game with your ai and then its getting better and better -

forget it

[illyrian]

Hey I posted this somewhere else, but since this is the place for ai wishlist, here it is mine,

Diplomacy should play a crucial role in making allies and enemies. I haven't seen a game in which the AI would ask help from an enemy to fight another enemy with the newly found ally. I think that would make for a better gameplay, and also it would be historically correct, as Thebes and athens although enemies became allies in the battle of chaeronea, or the persian wars. I see that as a must. It would be really cool and very attractive to any gamer who really loves rts games like aoe, or TW series. They all miss that ingredient. Civ 3-4 has that incorporated beautifully. It would look great to see two armies act in unison, against an aggressor. This would reinforce the theory of buffer states, giving it depth

My theory is that the hero with the most abilities (higher level) would take over command for both armies, althought 2 heros can fight and contribute separately to the army with their own strength. He higher level hero would use his culture's formations and also using the strength of his ally's army.

Example:hannibal used carthaginian army in the greek fashion, head on in phalanx formation. But he used the Iberians and numidians as ambushing force, because that was their way of fighting in their homeland.

I hope you can catch my flow here.

how about that diplomacy issue with the ai. Two enemies acting as allies against a stronger but common enemy.

i think it needs scripting, and I DON'T know much about scripting or developing.

THese are just ideas that come to mind, and i would like some feedback from anyone who believes that it is worth it. banana.gif

[Zeusthor]

I totally agree and I'm hoping to incorporate good diplomacy between 2 ai players and simple diplomacy between human and ai. The 0ad team probably hates me for being inactive, but I'll be back to work sooner or later :x.

[illyrian]

how are you doing Zeusthor. To tell you the truth i was going to give up since no one was answering the posts.

I was thinking to have the alliances last for a certain amount of time. If you create an alliance through a particular hero, the ai and player can make that alliance last until hero's death, or a certain amount of time, like 5 years, or 5 seasons, during which time the ai can remember how many times player has shown loyalty to it. How many times player answered ai call in time of need, and to have that ai keep alliance with player instead of other ai, if player has shown more loyalty to ai, than other ai, in case of war between player and that third ai. I think i made the last one a little confusing, sorry, lol. Just couldn't stop the train of thought....

What do you fellas think????????

Possible????

Edited April 27, 2006 by illyrian

[Zeusthor]

It's definately possible to do... whether it'd be in by default or not is another issue . Of course, you could always code it yourself once the game is capable of running ai scripts and WFG releases it. I don't want to go into detail with my ai plans because it's not even in a predraft stage. I haven't worked on it in months, but I don't want people to think I'm not coming back . I do enjoy everyone's ideas and I would eventually consider them important once I get back to the groove of things. For example, I probably will not support your type of diplomacy... but I can make sure the AI functionality is flexible and capable enough to do it.

Edited April 27, 2006 by Zeusthor

[illyrian]

LOL, can't say that everything i suggested will be incorporated, but my experience as a rts fanatic has told me to be more sceptical, and more analytic of ai behavior. I know for a fact that CA is trying to do this in M2 TW because of community dissatisfaction with ai in rtw and BI.

Just wondering what are ai capabilities going to be. Example: Are the romans going to use their formations or are they going to attack like a trickle, as AOE ai does, sending armies one soldier at a time...

Edited April 27, 2006 by illyrian

[Titus Ultor]

It's definately planned that the AI will be much more intelligent in that regard that the AoE AI. The computer should build up a varied army (depending on what units you primarily are using), complete with siege engines, when they're going to attack your town. They should also be able to raid with cavalry, defend effectively (most AIs just counter your offensive attacks with their own offensively-geared army) and expand to new areas wisely.

[Mythos_Ruler]

Example: Are the romans going to use their formations or are they going to attack like a trickle, as AOE ai does, sending armies one soldier at a time...

As formation management is a crucial part of our warfare paradigm, let's hope our AI uses formations. Relatedly, as our default game mode utilizes a territory system unlike most other RTSs I know of, with interesting benefits ecenomically and militarily, let's hope our AI manages this as well. I do like your example though. Older RTS games either had the huge "tank rush" where they'd build up an overwhelmingly massive army and swarm your base, or they'd do like you say and send in a stream of troops one at a time to get slaughtered. AOM changed that though. AOM the AI would generally send in a decent sized mixed force of mortals, heroes, and myth units to attack you. It's only when things devolved into the meatgrinder (constant warring over the center of the map or some forward base) when the AI would start sending in troops piecemeal, and to be fair, the human player had to as well.

Edited May 13, 2006 by Mythos_Ruler