[Task] Emblems - Redesign.

[Lion.Kanzen]

carolingians.pdf

I'm seeing that you're going to redesign a lot of things so let's start with the emblems.

The only complaint I have is that the Byzantine was already quite historical.

@Radiotraining

[Lion.Kanzen]

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

both can be done, I always promised to perfect the Byzantine.

[Lion.Kanzen]

5 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

 

The ideal in this case is to reimagine it as a Hoplite shield, it seems.

Do you guys  have any idea what it would look like if it were real?

[Radiotraining]

Hey @Lion.Kanzen I'm good with your feedback!

As I said, these redesign weren't meant to be particularly relevant, because functional symbols were already existing and I have no qualms about them.

To be honest, the only really "needed" one was the Umayyads that I improvised a bit from scratch in absence of something else. The others were just a follow-up that have been suggested internally in the Discord and I tried out for the sake of experimentation!

It wasn't exactly a feature change planned for this mod, but more like a simple improvisation. We can simply use the already existing symbols if necessary!  No problem with that  

[Lion.Kanzen]

@wowgetoffyourcellphone

we need your modder and critic judgement.

[Lion.Kanzen]

2 minutes ago, Radiotraining said:

Hey @Lion.Kanzen I'm good with your feedback!

As I said, these redesign weren't meant to be particularly relevant, because functional symbols were already existing and I have no qualms about them.

To be honest, the only really "needed" one was the Umayyads that I improvised a bit from scratch in absence of something else. The others were just a follow-up that have been suggested internally in the Discord and I tried out for the sake of experimentation!

It wasn't exactly a feature change planned for this mod, but more like a simple improvisation. We can simply use the already existing symbols if necessary!  No problem with that  

mine also need to be improved.

[Radiotraining]

aaaah it's okayyy!!

I'm good with the current "old" ones! Mine was a simple exercise to see how something different would work. It doesn't work? Fine, let's get back to the traditional ones, which I find absolutely good for their purpose!

 

EDIT: But I welcome ideas if there's a serious intention to work on them! As I said, there hasn't been particular thoughts on them, only some historical suggestions and just the intention to try to something out and see how it would work! Not much else

 

Edited November 24, 2021 by Radiotraining

[Radiotraining]

8 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

The ideal in this case is to reimagine it as a Hoplite shield, it seems.

well.. maybe @Andronikos Medina could better intervene here since he's expert on the matter, but, from what I could understand also from his lectures, a lot of Byzantine culture and aesthetic had been a conscious heritage more of hellenic culture rather than latin one. So a lot of symbolism that belonged to ancient, classic period had been preserved and re-utilized in this era.

In this case the emblem would be a representation of this cultural heritage that was present in Byzantium.

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 minute ago, Radiotraining said:

well.. maybe @Andronikos Medina could better intervene here since he's expert on the matter, but, from what I could understand also from his lectures, a lot of Byzantine culture and aesthetic had been a conscious heritage more of hellenic culture rather than latin one. So a lot of symbolism that belonged to ancient, classic period had been preserved and re-utilized in this era.

In this case the emblem would be a representation of this cultural heritage that was present in Byzantium.

I agree he should show us the shields of the period.

[Lion.Kanzen]

Spoiler

I imagine that this is the type of shield I am referring to, maybe it will be up to the historian to show us all the references.

@Andronikos Medina

[Andronikos Medina]

Didn't notice the notifications sorry, so

[Andronikos Medina]

We first take into account that the variety of artistic patterns for Byzantine shields is extremely wide, from meanders and virgin stars to Psudo-Greek inscriptions all had a use in Byzantium.

[Lion.Kanzen]

2 minutes ago, Andronikos Medina said:

We first take into account that the variety of artistic patterns for Byzantine shields is extremely wide, from meanders and virgin stars to Psudo-Greek inscriptions all had a use in Byzantium.

materials? Are there no modern blacksmiths who have created real versions with these references?

iconography is the primary source, but we also need to visualize them.

We often see pictures of reenactors.

[Andronikos Medina]

And as mentioned before, most of it was a Hellenic cultural heritage due to the great Greek influence in the eastern Mediterranean area from which the Byzantines drew artistic inspiration. Now we have to emphasize that the "formality" in Byzantium did not exist, each soldier depended on the military equipment that he could acquire given his economy.

Regarding the question, I would say that the interest in Byzantium is very low and most reenactors tend to give an image that is not very useful or precise, for example, one of the few that I could find is this shield from a deviantart artist called LadyArwynn16

[Lion.Kanzen]

 

with this one it would only be necessary to see the materials of the shields.

1 minute ago, Andronikos Medina said:

And as mentioned before, most of it was a Hellenic cultural heritage due to the great Greek influence in the eastern Mediterranean area from which the Byzantines drew artistic inspiration. Now we have to emphasize that the "formality" in Byzantium did not exist, each soldier depended on the military equipment that he could acquire given his economy.

Regarding the question, I would say that the interest in Byzantium is very low and most reenactors tend to give an image that is not very useful or precise, for example, one of the few that I could find is this shield from a deviantart artist called LadyArwynn16

great.

[Lion.Kanzen]

This is how they are made, you can see the materials.
as you can see, a realistic adaptation is being made, in a conceptual way.

"these colors, with these materials plus these aesthetic details."

[Lion.Kanzen]

@Radiotraining

for me the easiest is to create it in illustrator (vectors first) SVG maybe.

Edited November 24, 2021 by Lion.Kanzen

[Andronikos Medina]

As for the historical precision, I would say that it was not impossible to see the mosaic of the Chora monastery adapted to a shield, even more so knowing that it was a place frequented by nobles and aristocrats including the imperial family. But as for the recreation of the shield that I sent before, that kind of shield with that adaptation was difficult to imagine even at a time as late as that of the Palaeologists.

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 minute ago, Andronikos Medina said:

s for the historical precision, I would say that it was not impossible to see the mosaic of the Chora monastery adapted to a shield, even more so knowing that it was a place frequented by nobles and aristocrats including the imperial family. But as for the recreation of the shield that I sent before, that kind of shield with that adaptation was difficult to imagine even at a time as late as that of the Palaeologists.

 

that's what artistic licenses are for.

that's how I was imagining it in fact.

[Andronikos Medina]

My point is that the sources of artistic inspirations that we use are all based on and created from mosaics of nobles and aristocrats. In this case @Radiotraining did a splendid job of adapting it as "a" possible option open to refinement.

Speaking from my historical experience giving shape to all of this is exciting if we try and explore the various ways in which we could execute them, all the progress that was made in Discord is subject to being shaped and interpreted and nothing should be taken literally.

[Andronikos Medina]

It is enjoyable and helps greatly to have some idea of how these symbols would look in buildings and military equipment, they do not have to be definitive or strictly realistic since they are tests and interpretations that we try to adapt to the game.

The parameters that were established will be fulfilled with a lot of adaptation, but at no time was it thought of overcoming it or skipping them, also given the little significance that the term "Byzantine" implies in these days, it leads to very little archaeological information but if we lean towards the mosaics and manuscripts we have a more realistic image that we have to depend on until some significant archaeological advance is made. Radiotraining in this aspect has been a key symbology adapter to the progress of the mod, the purple Chi-Ro surrounded by meanders is a very popular symbology that we think could be applied to the mod but given the new indications it would be almost a challenge to find some true historical evidence of a flag or shield exactly like this, the mosaic of chora for example is the closest thing we have to the aforementioned symbol. Many of the ideas raised were from the beginning temporary including the symbols of the factions that would be adjusted and developed with better information later. I don't think anyone's effort should be further minimized when examining the entire context of the mod.

Edited November 25, 2021 by Andronikos Medina