Maharbal/Carthage

[Vercingetorix_]

Hello. In 21 alpha i mostly have played for gauls and for romans. I like testing some new civs for me and finding good strategies.Now i would like to discuss Carthage.

Few players like playing for Carthage, this civ doesnt seem to be popular. Carthage got a hero, called Maharbal who increases atack of melee cavalry. I asked some good players like borg- and we agreeded on that he should increase atack of range cavalry as well. Why? Well, u can simply count. This hero is worth of trainning if i do many many cavalry , but its too risky in normal game because horses can be counterd by simple speramen.Is this hero really worth of trainning , so? Normally in the game u cant rely on horses as ur main army and u do only some(20-40) as support for champions or for raiding traders. And range cavalry as support are much better than melee one.Thats why i suggest making Maharabal aura for range cavalry as well.

And just name me please, if there is  any other hero who increases atack of seperate types of units only( melee/range)?

Edited December 11, 2016 by Vercingetorix_

[Vercingetorix_]

Hope anyone  of devs will pay attention*

[Stan`]

Answers don't often come in less than a few days

[elexis]

Thanks for creating the forum post, it shows that your request is more sincere than other balancing changes proposed in the lobby.

Historically, Maharbal was a cavalry commander that attacked in huge battles on the right flank.

The current hero aura gives melee cavalry close to him a high (+5) attack boost. Indeed the spear infantry has a 3x bonus against cavalry, thus attacking them with melee cavalry is a bad use/cost ratio. The most efficient use is to raid the enemies trade, citizen soldiers and women, while using the speed advantage to avoid the slow spear infantry. I recall sentado as a player who exceptionally defeated enemies economically by just preventing them to trade with his cavalry (even towering the entire tradeline, building redundant markets and walls didn't stop him but only drained further resources). Notice also killing economic units will yield loot which can be invested to train champion infantry to defend spearmen.

Your proposal to extend the +5 hero bonus for ranged cavalry doesn't convince me yet, as it will mean players don't build it for raiding anymore but for building the cavalry that stands behind the infantry frontline, using the hero passively like a tech upgrade, not as a commander. If you want that kind of bonus with the carthaginians, build the Hannibal Barca hero who gives +2 attack for all units in his range.

Going the opposite direction and either reducing or limiting the affected classes of the +5 bonus of the Briton heroine Boudicca and Roman hero Marcellus seems preferable to me.

For your other question, doing a grep affects *hero* -A4 in binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/ (which can be found in public.zip of your installation as well) yields the following. This information should be displayed in the structure tree in the first place, proposed in #3972.

Spoiler

athen_hero_iphicrates_1.json:    "affects": ["Soldier"],
athen_hero_iphicrates_1.json-    "modifications": [
athen_hero_iphicrates_1.json-        { "value": "Armour/Pierce", "add": 1 },
athen_hero_iphicrates_1.json-        { "value": "Armour/Hack", "add": 1 },
athen_hero_iphicrates_1.json-        { "value": "Armour/Crush", "add": 1 },
--
athen_hero_iphicrates_2.json:    "affects": ["Javelin"],
athen_hero_iphicrates_2.json-    "modifications": [
athen_hero_iphicrates_2.json-        { "value": "UnitMotion/WalkSpeed", "multiply": 1.15 }
athen_hero_iphicrates_2.json-    ],
athen_hero_iphicrates_2.json-    "auraName": "Peltast Reforms",
--
athen_hero_pericles_1.json:    "affects": ["Worker"],
athen_hero_pericles_1.json-    "modifications": [
athen_hero_pericles_1.json-        { "value": "Builder/Rate", "multiply": 1.15 }
athen_hero_pericles_1.json-    ],
athen_hero_pericles_1.json-    "auraName": "Builder Aura",
--
athen_hero_pericles_2.json:    "affects": ["Temple"],
athen_hero_pericles_2.json-    "modifications": [
athen_hero_pericles_2.json-        { "value": "Cost/Resources/stone", "add": -50 }
athen_hero_pericles_2.json-    ],
athen_hero_pericles_2.json-    "auraName": "Acropolis Aura",
--
athen_hero_themistocles_1.json:    "affects": ["Ship"],
athen_hero_themistocles_1.json-    "affectedPlayers": ["MutualAlly"],
athen_hero_themistocles_1.json-    "modifications": [
athen_hero_themistocles_1.json-        { "value": "UnitMotion/WalkSpeed", "multiply": 1.5 }
athen_hero_themistocles_1.json-    ],
--
athen_hero_themistocles_2.json:    "affects": ["Ship"],
athen_hero_themistocles_2.json-    "modifications": [
athen_hero_themistocles_2.json-        { "value": "Cost/BuildTime", "multiply": 0.8 }
athen_hero_themistocles_2.json-    ],
athen_hero_themistocles_2.json-    "auraName": "Naval Architect Aura",
--
brit_hero_boudicca.json:    "affects": ["Champion"],
brit_hero_boudicca.json-    "modifications": [
brit_hero_boudicca.json-        { "value": "UnitMotion/WalkSpeed", "multiply": 1.25 },
brit_hero_boudicca.json-        { "value": "Attack/Ranged/Pierce", "add": 5 },
brit_hero_boudicca.json-        { "value": "Attack/Melee/Hack", "add": 5 },
--
brit_hero_caratacos.json:    "affects": ["Soldier", "Siege"],
brit_hero_caratacos.json-    "modifications": [
brit_hero_caratacos.json-        { "value": "UnitMotion/WalkSpeed", "multiply": 1.15 }
brit_hero_caratacos.json-    ],
brit_hero_caratacos.json-    "auraName": "Hero Aura",
--
brit_hero_cunobelin.json:    "affects": ["Human"],
brit_hero_cunobelin.json-    "modifications": [
brit_hero_cunobelin.json-        { "value": "Health/RegenRate", "add": 1 }
brit_hero_cunobelin.json-    ],
brit_hero_cunobelin.json-    "auraName": "Hero Aura",
--
cart_hero_hamilcar.json:    "affects": ["Soldier", "Siege"],
cart_hero_hamilcar.json-    "modifications": [
cart_hero_hamilcar.json-        { "value": "UnitMotion/WalkSpeed", "multiply": 1.15 }
cart_hero_hamilcar.json-    ],
cart_hero_hamilcar.json-    "auraName": "Lightning Aura",
--
cart_hero_hannibal.json:    "affects": ["Soldier", "Siege"],
cart_hero_hannibal.json-    "affectedPlayers": ["Ally"],
cart_hero_hannibal.json-    "modifications": [
cart_hero_hannibal.json-        { "value": "Attack/Ranged/Pierce", "add": 2 },
cart_hero_hannibal.json-        { "value": "Attack/Melee/Hack", "add": 2 },
--
cart_hero_maharbal.json:    "affects": ["Melee+Cavalry"],
cart_hero_maharbal.json-    "modifications": [
cart_hero_maharbal.json-        { "value": "Attack/Melee/Hack", "add": 5 }
cart_hero_maharbal.json-    ],
cart_hero_maharbal.json-    "auraName": "Commander Aura",
--
gaul_hero_brennus.json:    "affects": ["Human", "Mechanical"],
gaul_hero_brennus.json-    "modifications": [
gaul_hero_brennus.json-        { "value": "Looter/Resource/metal", "add": 10 }
gaul_hero_brennus.json-    ],
gaul_hero_brennus.json-    "auraName": "Hero Aura",
--
gaul_hero_britomartus.json:    "affects": ["Worker"],
gaul_hero_britomartus.json-    "modifications": [
gaul_hero_britomartus.json-        { "value": "ResourceGatherer/BaseSpeed", "multiply": 1.15 }
gaul_hero_britomartus.json-    ],
gaul_hero_britomartus.json-    "auraName": "Hero Aura",
--
gaul_hero_vercingetorix.json:    "affects": ["Soldier", "Siege"],
gaul_hero_vercingetorix.json-    "modifications": [
gaul_hero_vercingetorix.json-        { "value": "Attack/Ranged/Pierce", "add": 2 },
gaul_hero_vercingetorix.json-        { "value": "Attack/Melee/Hack", "add": 2 },
gaul_hero_vercingetorix.json-        { "value": "Attack/Capture/Value", "add": 1 }
--
hero_garrison.json:    "affects": ["Structure", "Mechanical"],
hero_garrison.json-    "modifications": [
hero_garrison.json-        { "value": "Capturable/GarrisonRegenRate", "add": 2 }
hero_garrison.json-    ],
hero_garrison.json-    "auraName": "Garrisoned Capture Aura",
--
mace_hero_alexander.json:    "affects": ["Structure"],
mace_hero_alexander.json-    "modifications": [
mace_hero_alexander.json-        { "value": "TerritoryInfluence/Radius", "multiply": 1.1 }
mace_hero_alexander.json-    ],
mace_hero_alexander.json-    "auraName": "Imperialism Aura",
--
mace_hero_demetrius.json:    "affects": ["Siege"],
mace_hero_demetrius.json-    "modifications": [
mace_hero_demetrius.json-        { "value": "Attack/Melee/Crush", "add": 10 },
mace_hero_demetrius.json-        { "value": "Attack/Ranged/Crush", "add": 10 },
mace_hero_demetrius.json-        { "value": "Attack/Ranged/MaxRange", "multiply": 1.15 },
--
mace_hero_philip.json:    "affects": ["Champion"],
mace_hero_philip.json-    "modifications": [
mace_hero_philip.json-        { "value": "Attack/Ranged/Pierce", "add": 5 },
mace_hero_philip.json-        { "value": "Attack/Melee/Hack", "add": 5 },
mace_hero_philip.json-        { "value": "Attack/Capture/Value", "add": 2 }
--
maur_hero_ashoka.json:    "affects": ["Temple"],
maur_hero_ashoka.json-    "modifications": [
maur_hero_ashoka.json-        { "value": "ProductionQueue/TechCostMultiplier/wood", "multiply": 0.5 },
maur_hero_ashoka.json-        { "value": "ProductionQueue/TechCostMultiplier/food", "multiply": 0.5 },
maur_hero_ashoka.json-        { "value": "ProductionQueue/TechCostMultiplier/metal", "multiply": 0.5 },
--
maur_hero_chanakya.json:    "affects": ["Structure"],
maur_hero_chanakya.json-    "modifications": [
maur_hero_chanakya.json-        { "value": "ProductionQueue/TechCostMultiplier/time", "multiply": 0.5 }
maur_hero_chanakya.json-    ],
maur_hero_chanakya.json-    "auraDescription": "Empower a building with -50% research time while he is garrisoned in it.",
--
pers_hero_cyrus.json:    "affects": ["Cavalry"],
pers_hero_cyrus.json-    "modifications": [
pers_hero_cyrus.json-        { "value": "Attack/Ranged/Pierce", "add": 2 },
pers_hero_cyrus.json-        { "value": "Attack/Melee/Hack", "add": 2 },
pers_hero_cyrus.json-        { "value": "Attack/Capture/Value", "add": 1 }
--
pers_hero_darius.json:    "affects": ["Soldier", "Siege"],
pers_hero_darius.json-    "modifications": [
pers_hero_darius.json-        { "value": "UnitMotion/WalkSpeed", "multiply": 1.15 }
pers_hero_darius.json-    ],
pers_hero_darius.json-    "auraName": "Leadership Aura",
--
pers_hero_xerxes.json:    "affects": ["Worker"],
pers_hero_xerxes.json-    "modifications": [
pers_hero_xerxes.json-        { "value": "Builder/Rate", "multiply": 1.15 },
pers_hero_xerxes.json-        { "value": "ResourceGatherer/BaseSpeed", "multiply": 1.15 }
pers_hero_xerxes.json-    ],
--
ptol_hero_cleopatra.json:    "affects": ["Soldier", "Siege"],
ptol_hero_cleopatra.json-    "modifications": [
ptol_hero_cleopatra.json-        { "value": "Attack/Melee/RepeatTime", "multiply": 0.8 },
ptol_hero_cleopatra.json-        { "value": "Attack/Ranged/RepeatTime", "multiply": 0.8 }
ptol_hero_cleopatra.json-    ],
--
ptol_hero_ptolemy_I_1.json:    "affects": ["Worker"],
ptol_hero_ptolemy_I_1.json-    "modifications": [
ptol_hero_ptolemy_I_1.json-        { "value": "Builder/Rate", "multiply": 1.10 }
ptol_hero_ptolemy_I_1.json-    ],
ptol_hero_ptolemy_I_1.json-    "auraName": "Construction Aura",
--
ptol_hero_ptolemy_I_2.json:    "affects": ["Mercenary"],
ptol_hero_ptolemy_I_2.json-    "modifications": [
ptol_hero_ptolemy_I_2.json-        { "value": "Cost/Resources/food", "multiply": 0.5 },
ptol_hero_ptolemy_I_2.json-        { "value": "Cost/Resources/wood", "multiply": 0.5 },
ptol_hero_ptolemy_I_2.json-        { "value": "Cost/Resources/stone", "multiply": 0.5 },
--
ptol_hero_ptolemy_IV.json:    "affects": ["Pike"],
ptol_hero_ptolemy_IV.json-    "modifications": [
ptol_hero_ptolemy_IV.json-        { "value": "Health/Max", "multiply": 1.40 }
ptol_hero_ptolemy_IV.json-    ],
ptol_hero_ptolemy_IV.json-    "auraName": "Raphia Aura",
--
rome_hero_marcellus.json:    "affects": ["Soldier", "Siege"],
rome_hero_marcellus.json-    "modifications": [
rome_hero_marcellus.json-        { "value": "Attack/Ranged/Pierce", "add": 5 },
rome_hero_marcellus.json-        { "value": "Attack/Melee/Hack", "add": 5 },
rome_hero_marcellus.json-        { "value": "Attack/Capture/Value", "add": 2 }
--
rome_hero_maximus.json:    "affects": ["Human", "Structure"],
rome_hero_maximus.json-    "modifications": [
rome_hero_maximus.json-        { "value": "Armour/Pierce", "add": 1 },
rome_hero_maximus.json-        { "value": "Armour/Hack", "add": 1 },
rome_hero_maximus.json-        { "value": "Armour/Crush", "add": 1 }
--
sele_hero_antiochus_great.json:    "affects": ["Cavalry"],
sele_hero_antiochus_great.json-    "modifications": [
sele_hero_antiochus_great.json-        { "value": "Armour/Pierce", "add": 2 },
sele_hero_antiochus_great.json-        { "value": "Armour/Hack", "add": 2 },
sele_hero_antiochus_great.json-        { "value": "Armour/Crush", "add": 2 }
--
sele_hero_antiochus_righteous.json:    "affects": ["Structure", "Mechanical"],
sele_hero_antiochus_righteous.json-    "affectedPlayers": ["Enemy"],
sele_hero_antiochus_righteous.json-    "modifications": [
sele_hero_antiochus_righteous.json-        { "value": "Health/Max", "multiply": 0.8 }
sele_hero_antiochus_righteous.json-    ],
--
sele_hero_seleucus_victor.json:    "affects": ["Elephant"],
sele_hero_seleucus_victor.json-    "modifications": [
sele_hero_seleucus_victor.json-        { "value": "UnitMotion/WalkSpeed", "multiply": 1.2 },
sele_hero_seleucus_victor.json-        { "value": "Attack/Melee/Hack", "multiply": 1.2 },
sele_hero_seleucus_victor.json-        { "value": "Attack/Melee/Crush", "multiply": 1.2 }
--
spart_hero_brasidas.json:    "affects": ["Javelin"],
spart_hero_brasidas.json-    "modifications": [
spart_hero_brasidas.json-        { "value": "Attack/Ranged/Pierce", "add": 2 },
spart_hero_brasidas.json-        { "value": "Armour/Pierce", "add": 1 },
spart_hero_brasidas.json-        { "value": "Armour/Hack", "add": 1 },
--
spart_hero_leonidas.json:    "affects": ["Spear"],
spart_hero_leonidas.json-    "modifications": [
spart_hero_leonidas.json-        { "value": "Attack/Melee/Hack", "multiply": 1.2 },
spart_hero_leonidas.json-        { "value": "Attack/Melee/Pierce", "multiply": 1.2 },
spart_hero_leonidas.json-        { "value": "Attack/Melee/Crush", "multiply": 1.2 },

Extending what Stan mentioned, balancing improvements are rarely explored as the few active developers that we have mostly focus on the engine, except @fatherbushido who seems to be absent currently though.

[Vercingetorix_]

Elexis, i dont want to hire a hero just to raid eco. Its a bad choice. Hero is needed to boost main army , not some separate small groups like cavalry. Also i have read enough info about punic wars and Maharbal was a commander of all cavalry( incuding light numidian cavalry (ranged) )

I hope borg will join disscussion and wll bring his opinion here, because in lobby he agreed with it.

Raids on traders can be counterd by normal citizen cavalry as well. Britons, Gauls,Athens, Maurya( +2 atack for sword),Persia can deal with Carthage cav pretty well, their horses dont need much iron to be trained.

And as i said, so far all heroes who increase units atack, they increase champs atack or citizens atack but not separate types of units like melee/ range.

May be let Maharbal increase + 4 atack for melee and +3 for ranged at least? Mercenaries cav is pretty expensive, i have played for Carthage a lot and i know that feel when u have a lack of stone / iron. Only lucky position from the beginning can help significantly.

Idea of nerfing of the Briton heroine Boudicca and Roman hero Marcellus seems to be fair.

Edited December 13, 2016 by Vercingetorix_

[elexis]

So you should ping @borg-  with an @ in front of his name then. That proposal sounds better to me, but would have to be agreed upon by a second developer if you upload a changed aura file,  @scythetwirler would be one to bug.