Ayakashi Posted June 3, 2017 Report Share Posted June 3, 2017 (edited) I've had a hard time trying to find good information on Han Dynasty Palace Guards to be frank. Even from Chinese sites information is sparse compared to those from the Tang Dynasty and later. The Yu Lin are probably the most well known from the Western (Early) Han. I've not come across any sources that discuss the exact weapons they use at great detail but based of most depictions and general knowledge that Chinese Palace Armies are trained to be proficient at all the main weapons: especially bows, spears and lances, you can do quite a lot with them in 0AD. If weapons switching is possible with the game's engine, the best way I'd say to have them is to have a cavalry and infantry version and both can switch between bow and spear. If that's not possible just have them as either one or the other depending on gameplay and balance needs. Another thing you can maybe possibly do is to rename the Government Center to Palace, and have it be a prerequisite to unlock these champion units, or have champion units and heroes be trained there only, to reflect the notion of them being Palace Guards. EDIT: wowgetoffyourcellphone & wolflance: It seems you guys have found better sources than I have. Do you mind sharing them with me? I'd like to use them for reference/art purposes. Edited June 3, 2017 by Ayakashi 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wowgetoffyourcellphone Posted June 3, 2017 Report Share Posted June 3, 2017 (edited) Specific Name: Yü Lin Generic Name: Feathered Forest Guards Weapons: Cavalry Lance and Cavalry Bow, can switch using DE's upgrade system; I'd say they are trained as Lancers. Description/History: ? @Ayakashi: I just read a bunch of Wikiwand articles about the Han, their government, their army. Those were my sources. There is a lot of little hints and tidbits in those articles that can be gleaned to get an idea of things, but a lot of it isn't openly spelled out for us. We have to infer a lot. <political opinion> Sadly, the Cultural Revolution did a lot of damage to primary sources. </political opinion> About the Government Center, I was thinking of doing this: It would train Ministers, limit of 9, who empower better gathering rates and other bonuses via auras. Buildings would research faster in their aura, etc. 9 of them for the 9 ministries of the Han Dynasty. They'd become an integral part to the player's economy. 1 Minister would be the civ's special starting unit. I'd also move all the techs from the Civic Center, except phasing, to the Government Center. Lastly, I was thinking of moving the Chariot from the Fortress to the Government Center to give it a late game military feature. The Fortress would still house the 2 non-Liu Bang heroes*, 2 champions -- 1 cavalry and 1 infantry, and 2 siege engines and Fortress upgrades. I also will add a new tech pair to the Fortress: Northern Army vs. Southern Army. The Northern Army is the professional army of the empire, while the Southern Army is more militia in nature. 9 Ministers https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Nine_Ministers https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Government_of_the_Han_dynasty#/Nine_Ministers - more thorough than the "main" article, ironically. Northern Army and Southern Army Distinction https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Government_of_the_Han_dynasty#/Standing_army_and_army_reserves Edited June 4, 2017 by wowgetoffyourcellphone 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayakashi Posted June 4, 2017 Report Share Posted June 4, 2017 Thanks dude! The damage of the Cultural Revolution to primary sources and historical artifacts is just a commonly known fact, no need to be ashamed to talk about it. As for the Government Center it's certainly a very interesting mechanic you are going for. Obviously I've been gone for a while and is now out of touch with the development. I'd say great job so far and keep doing what you are doing! I'll leave the historical accuracy feedback to Wolflance 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wowgetoffyourcellphone Posted June 4, 2017 Report Share Posted June 4, 2017 1 minute ago, Ayakashi said: Thanks dude! The damage of the Cultural Revolution to primary sources and historical artifacts is just a commonly known fact, no need to be ashamed to talk about it. As for the Government Center it's certainly a very interesting mechanic you are going for. Obviously I've been gone for a while and is now out of touch with the development. I'd say great job so far and keep doing what you are doing! I'll leave the historical accuracy feedback to Wolflance No problem. Specifically, I am doing this for the DE version of the Han, but the Terra Magna guys are more than welcome to take anything and everything I do for their own mod. Are you willing to do some more concept art? I think the Han need a Wonder, definitely. General idea is that it should be the Weiyang Palace. Since it's longer than it is wide, it could have the same footprint as the Ptolemies wonder or maybe slightly bigger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayakashi Posted June 4, 2017 Report Share Posted June 4, 2017 (edited) The Weiyang Palace is massive, several times bigger than the Ming Forbidden City, making it the wonder will have to scale it down in a way that won't do it justice. I would suggest instead the Mingtang Piyong (明堂辟雍) which is this big altar in Chang'an that I assume serves a similar purpose to the Ming Temple of Heaven. I need to read more into it. There are some decent pictures of them on the internet such as these: Spoiler I don't think I need to do concept art for the Wonder if you decide to have the Mingtang Piyong. I think the pictures above are pretty good and there are more good quality blueprints online if you copy & paste the Chinese text into Google. Waiting for me to draw a concept art will probably be a waste of time. Though I am currently drawing some new concepts for the livestock pen and market to bring them up to par with the rest of the buildings. No promises on when I'll finish them though. Coming back to the Government Center I don't know why but that name just don't quite sit right with me. I personally prefer Palace Complex simply because ancient Chinese capitals always have one as their bureaucratic hub and it just make more sense to me even with the function you intended, and to have it be a prerequisite for champion units simply again: since they're Palace Guards, it just makes sense. But that's just a personal suggestion and the decisions aren't mine to make. Edited June 4, 2017 by Ayakashi Edit: Pictures didn't work. Sould do now. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wowgetoffyourcellphone Posted June 4, 2017 Report Share Posted June 4, 2017 (edited) I understand your reservations about the size, but really, everything is scaled down in one way or another, right? Wouldn't Mingtang Biyong, plus a wall and gate, a courtyard, some towers, and beefed up a little bit, more elaborate, make for a good approximation of Weiyang Palace? I'm not against Mingtang Biyong being the wonder. It's just Weyang is more wondrous. "Government Center" is just a generic name, really. It conjures up images of the Chinese being obsessed with government administration. Perhaps Administration Center sounds better, though it's still generic. It doesn't really represent the Emperor himself, but rather the massive civil service arrayed below him, personified by the 9 Ministers. I could see building one being a prereq for Champions though. Can't wait to see what you come up with for the corral and market, especially. Edited June 4, 2017 by wowgetoffyourcellphone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayakashi Posted June 4, 2017 Report Share Posted June 4, 2017 (edited) Actually you should call the Government Center Imperial City. I just remembered the proper name for these kind of places: Imperial City! I strongly suggest Mingtang Piyong because no matter how I imagine it, trying to fit it into the game will be a nightmare. If you make the scale on par with everything else it will be too big, if you scale it down it will look like a doll house. Keep in mind that it's a massive sprawling palace complex many square kilometers in size and also that need to stick to historical accuracy where possible, thus I think just modeling the Mingtang Piyong and calling it the Weiyang Palace is a bad idea. I think if you want to incorporate the Weiyang Palace into the game the best way to do it is to make some props/none player buildable buildings such as halls, walls, gates and the likes, and then assemble it in the map editor and make a map out of it (Imagine a capture Weiyang Palace scenario, where players fight to take control of various palace buildings, that'd be quite fun). Edited June 4, 2017 by Ayakashi 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wowgetoffyourcellphone Posted June 4, 2017 Report Share Posted June 4, 2017 3 minutes ago, Ayakashi said: Actually you should call the Government Center Imperial City. I just remembered the proper name for these kind of places: Imperial City! I strongly suggest Mingtang Piyong because no matter how I imagine it, trying to fit it into the game will be a nightmare. If you make the scale on par with everything else it will be too big, if you scale it down it will look like a doll house. Keep in mind that it's a massive sprawling palace complex many square kilometers in size and also that need to stick to historical accuracy where possible, thus I think just modeling the Mingtang Piyong and calling it the Weiyang Palace is a bad idea. I think if you want to incorporate the Weiyang Palace into the game the best way to do it is to make some props/none player buildable buildings such as halls, walls, gates and the likes, and then assemble it in the map editor and make a map out of it (Imagine a capture Weiyang Palace scenario, that'd be quite fun). Okay, you convinced me. Especially about the Weiyang Palace scenario, which could also make a great skirmish map, or "Capture the Wonder" scenario. Anyone else have any thoughts? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan` Posted June 4, 2017 Report Share Posted June 4, 2017 (edited) Well having tried to make the weyang palace I think Mingtang Pyong would be easier ^^ Edited June 4, 2017 by stanislas69 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayakashi Posted June 4, 2017 Report Share Posted June 4, 2017 4 hours ago, stanislas69 said: Well having tried to make the weyang palace I think Mingtang Pyong would be easier ^^ Indeed! Due to the 4 way symmetry you can just do 1/4 and mirror it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan` Posted June 4, 2017 Report Share Posted June 4, 2017 Indeed 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan` Posted June 4, 2017 Report Share Posted June 4, 2017 Final version 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayakashi Posted June 5, 2017 Report Share Posted June 5, 2017 (edited) Wow that was quick Just rotate the flags 180 degrees so they're not upside down, maybe raise the stone platform up a wee bit so that there are stairs leading up the entrance (personal suggestion, up to you if you want to do that), and you're good to go Edited June 5, 2017 by Ayakashi 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan` Posted June 5, 2017 Report Share Posted June 5, 2017 It's fixed 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayakashi Posted June 5, 2017 Report Share Posted June 5, 2017 Better! One last little thing: Do you mind horizontally flipping the flag on the right so that it matches the left? Reason being that it's the Chinese word for Han thus shouldn't be mirrored the way it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan` Posted June 5, 2017 Report Share Posted June 5, 2017 Sure will do that tonight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wowgetoffyourcellphone Posted June 6, 2017 Report Share Posted June 6, 2017 Champion archer switches to sword and back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan` Posted June 6, 2017 Report Share Posted June 6, 2017 Cool ! I wonder where that red arrow is coming from 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wowgetoffyourcellphone Posted June 6, 2017 Report Share Posted June 6, 2017 Getting a weird recursion thing when I press and hold shift. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan` Posted June 6, 2017 Report Share Posted June 6, 2017 I don't think that's related to my changes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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