Alpha 17 Wishlist/General discussion

[Lion.Kanzen]

I open this topic because we have Wishlist in

Alpha 16

Too se last list here is the link: http://www.wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=18030&hl=%2Balpha+%2B16+%2Bwishlist

Here the user Discuss features and Developer ask if is possibly implement it.

[Lion.Kanzen]

My suggestions Add match config file to user

Are for general setting but not for match making.

Add folder for custom maps.

[auron2401]

Finish up Seleucid's, ofc.

Make elephants either siege units or pseudo-cav units, not both. i can win most engagements with 10 elephants ,and still have enough to drag down 2 forts and a civ centre. !!!!

A slave unit - which is the opposite of the female worker. Excellent at mining, sucks at life, costs metal. avaliable to all factions. except maybe any faction which was specifically anti-slavery? Iuno.

Make it so cav-javs aren’t available at civ centres. ONLY AT BARRACKS OR STABLES. MELEE CAV ONLY.

this should at least give time to prevent against jav-cav rushes. or if you do them, they're much more all-in.

Buildable Bridges!

yes yes these are all balance changes. woopty. give me a spreadsheet with all the numbers.

OH, and if there isn't a single file which defines all the numbers, MAKE ONE. it should make balance changes easier.

Edited June 8, 2014 by auron2401

[Lion.Kanzen]

Now I think bridges because now are possible.

[iNcog]

The most important changes are the following, imo. It comes down to some technical changes and some design changes. I realize that some of these changes are highly demanding but this is a wishlist after all.

Tech:

- Fix path-finding so that it's less laggy and so that it's well-threaded. Performance gains and more responsive units would be great!

- Fix multiplayer so that it's less laggy. I'm not sure how it's implemented as of right now but playing in single player vs the AI and playing online are two different things right now. The game is much more smooth offline. There's some optimization that's needed here somewhere.

- Anyone who leaves a game also automatically resigns. That way people can't just leave games if they lose, and people don't have to "remember" to resign when they hit alt-F4. I owe wesono a win due to this. q_q

-Building hotkeys, or hotkeys to build buildings with. I put together some sample hotkeys for those interested. It's for QWERTY keyboards, first one is Britons, second is Persians:

Design:

- Remove ranged cav from age 1 and replace with spear cav or swords cav. That way, you can still use the cav to hunt and scout in age 1, but you can't do the broken skirmcav rush anymore. Skirmcav rush is too strong in that no unit can cost-efficiently deal with this rush. Skirmcav cav can also stay out of cc range whereas melee cav cannot. Pikemen & spear infantry will be able to easily deal with melee cav rushes. Skirmcav need a ranged counter (I think actual skirms would be good), not spearmen/elephants since those are melee units which are either slow or very expensive.

- Get rid of the pairing of storehouse and blacksmith techs. At least these two for a start. You will get a deeper and overall more fun game with this. Read through this thread to find my arguments as to why this change is necessary: http://www.wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=18635&page=2

- Ptolemies need to get another bonus other than free houses; I think that slightly cheaper houses (60w instead of 75w) and having them build faster would already be a huge civ bonus. So something along those lines could be very unique and still a very good civ bonus.

- Iberians should get some other bonus than free walls / turrets. It's broken in that it's way too strong vs rushes but it also prevents your harvesters from accessing resources. It's an uninteresting bonus overall that should probably be replaced with something else.

Edited June 8, 2014 by iNcog

[Lion.Kanzen]

The most important changes are the following, imo. It comes down to some technical changes and some design changes. I realize that some of these changes are highly demanding but this is a wishlist after all.Tech:- Fix path-finding so that it's less laggy and so that it's well-threaded. Performance gains and more responsive units would be great!- Fix multiplayer so that it's less laggy. I'm not sure how it's implemented as of right now but playing in single player vs the AI and playing online are two different things right now. The game is much more smooth offline. There's some optimization that's needed here somewhere.- Anyone who leaves a game also automatically resigns. That way people can't just leave games if they lose, and people don't have to "remember" to resign when they hit alt-F4. I owe wesono a win due to this. q_qDesign:- Remove ranged cav from age 1 and replace with spear cav or swords cav. That way, you can still use the cav to hunt and scout in age 1, but you can't do the broken skirmcav rush anymore. Skirmcav rush is too strong in that no unit can cost-efficiently deal with this rush. Skirmcav cav can also stay out of cc range whereas melee cav cannot. Pikemen & spear infantry will be able to easily deal with melee cav rushes. Skirmcav need a ranged counter (I think actual skirms would be good), not spearmen/elephants since those are melee units which are either slow or very expensive.- Get rid of the pairing of storehouse and blacksmith techs. At least these two for a start. You will get a deeper and overall more fun game with this. Read through this thread to find my arguments as to why this change is necessary: http://www.wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=18635&page=2- Ptolemies need to get another bonus other than free houses; I think that slightly cheaper houses (60w instead of 75w) and having them build faster would already be a huge civ bonus. So something along those lines could be very unique and still a very good civ bonus.- Iberians should get some other bonus than free walls / turrets. It's broken in that it's way too strong vs rushes but it also prevents your harvesters from accessing resources. It's an uninteresting bonus overall that should probably be replaced with something else.

The path finder is a very long task when game solves the lag may be the game can be Beta Stage

[zzippy]

Suggestion:

Make Civic Center available at phase1 (maybe restricted to own territory), so that the annoying roman sword rush (especially in 2v2) gets senseless.

Edited June 8, 2014 by zzippy

[RoekeloosNL]

Buildable defences like: Spike-traps, Fire-pits, spike-walls to build infront your walls. I Think that adds another nice way off startegy to the game and building on special roadcrossings to harras the other player would be so mutch fun .

A better way of showing the building tabs, like adding different tabs: CC-Buildings, Farm-buildings, Military-Buildings, Defence-Buildings ect ect.. (Or only a different tab for all defensive/military Buildings). So its not all showed in one menu.

+ Resolution options.

[iNcog]

I actually hate buildings, they do too much damage. To be fair I've never even looked at stats before making this post, I decided to fire up the game to check what the stats actually look like and I'm in disbelief at what I'm looking at.

A single tower costs 100w 100st, which is about twice as much as two ranged infantry units. Yet for so few resources, you get something with 1000 HP, 99% pierce armor and 20 attack/s, with a range of 57! A tower basically can't be killed at range. So if you're a smart player you just make lots of ranged units to counter the melee units that are needed to take down the tower and go tower rush by building a CC close to your opponent's city. It's actually way more broken than I thought.

Now, before someone tells me that you should have an army to prevent the CC and the towers from going up, let's actually think things through. All the tower rusher really has to do is get a CC up. It's MONSTROUSLY difficult to take out a CC if there's an army to protect it. Then, all he has to do is progressively make towers, they're really cheap, closer and closer to your frontiers. You need the melee units to take out towers however melee units are inherently weak against ranged units, especially if the ranged units are on there own turf and can garrison into towers. You can't use your own ranged units since towers have that absurd pierce armor.

What about making your own towers for defense? That's also quite stupid. This is 0 AD where you have lots of interesting units in skirms, cavalry, swordsman and spearmen. This isn't Tower Wars.

So I wrote most of that post and then I decided to build a tower in game and put in 5 ranged units. From 10 attack/s you go to 50 attack/s. That's just absurd.

Tl, dr, towers need to be nerfed to the ground. Really bad. I had no idea towers were that strong. If you want to make towers interesting and relevant in the game, then have them be outposts. Increase the cost of towers and increase the amount of units they can garrison. Decrease pierce armor. Decrease health. Make sure they only get 1 arrow every second. Don't increase attack with units inside. Have towers be able to obtain a small, very small amount of territory around it. Now towers can be used to spot areas of the map. The territory they give means you can build drop site for resources. This means that you can go gather something remote on the map without having to build a CC. You have the vision and the garrison space to protect against cavalry raids. More importantly, towers aren't the absolutely broken thing they are now.

Edit: Might just make another thread about this like the cav thread. Some things in the game are so good yet some other things are totally broken.

Edited June 8, 2014 by iNcog

[hhyloc]

I agree with the notion that the free wall Iberian get at the start should be removed and replaced with something else. I think factions should be map independant in the sense that every one should start with the same condition and work their way up depend on the faction's specific features, in this case the Iberians is the exception becausw the faction start with prebuilt wall that no other factions have. My suggestion for replacement bonus are stronger and/or faster palisade wall for the Iberians and more wall-oriented techs so they can still be the defensive and anti-rush faction.

[RoekeloosNL]

Some things in the game are so good yet some other things are totally broken.

0.A.D is still in Alpha stages so that means there still is alot of room for balancing and tweaking and i agree with the towers they need some more balancing and for sure that will be done someday.

[Lion.Kanzen]

Other suggestion is CC docks. The dock works as CC to control the sea and for sea maps, specially tiny Islands.

[Lion.Kanzen]

I agree with the notion that the free wall Iberian get at the start should be removed and replaced with something else. I think factions should be map independant in the sense that every one should start with the same condition and work their way up depend on the faction's specific features, in this case the Iberians is the exception becausw the faction start with prebuilt wall that no other factions have. My suggestion for replacement bonus are stronger and/or faster palisade wall for the Iberians and more wall-oriented techs so they can still be the defensive and anti-rush faction.

I think in a Woden wall or medium wall, wilt turrets, now the unit can climb over walls.

May ba variety of defensive structures, Wodden Tower watch tower like outpost but 4x and medium broad wall without turrets, may be made by wood and a upgrade to stone, in height.

I now these model is needed but not a new animation.

Im a favor slaves but in the last phase. A very weak unit.

Edited June 8, 2014 by Lion.Kanzen

[niektb]

My wishes on top of my list:

- Performance improvements

- one or another new graphics shader (FXAA?)

- triggers

- enhanced formations

[borg_]

The game does not need anything new at the moment, just balance and optimization.
After these two problems solved, then add new material.

[Lion.Kanzen]

The game does not need anything new at the moment, just balance and optimization.

After these two problems solved, then add new material.

Is not easy for whole but with art team Add some extra content is quite simple like new units or 3D art, not animations or sounds.

But optimizate the game is a high priority for all , but that don't means the art do anything.

[hhyloc]

Like Lion.Kanzen said, game development doesn't work that way. You don't magically have a faster progres if you lump people together and stop the artists from creating new art asset for the game. Also, the game is in alpha, the stage where lots of feature will be added and then stablised later.

[borg_]

You do not need to stop creating, just stop adding new things for a period, facilitating work on balance and performance.

[Lion.Kanzen]

You do not need to stop creating, just stop adding new things for a period, facilitating work on balance and performance.

I was said before without a new pathfinder and give more Ai stuff. Petra is superior to aegis obviusly, may be aegis disappear if don't update anymore like Qbot , jeru bot and test bot in early bot.

Not all programmer can deal with engine so do other things like fix bugs but are few only to improves and that implying research how deal with that.

You can stop to enrique add new animations and textures , is art department , or Pureon work to improve the UI.

Balance is impossible because are too many features ( consult planned features) these includes atlas improvement, units in wall was improved, so this give a big bots to defensive, plus game modes, the game balance can be finished when all main features are finish.

Micheal works to balance all all we are beta testers not players.

I give a little spoil what are next.

Ramming ships

Units toggle walk run

Charge units

Units over a ship

Conversion and loyalty

Advanced Diplomacy

Campaign modes ( history and turn based)

Second attack or movements

Reinforcements

Mercenaries and mini factions ( is not clear)

Imagine try to balance at this stage, finish the balance and... Adding this in one big update, all work for balance lost. Again.

[iNcog]

I don't agree. If you balance things now then you have a solid base for balance to work on for later.

We're not talking hardcore balance you know, we mean fix the obviously broken design issues. Skirmcav need a counter and need to be moved to age 2, towers need a huge nerf and some civs need their civ bonus to be reworked. This isn't quite about unit stats or anything, it's more about design flaws. If you want to attract more players (which is the goal isn't it?) you need to make sure that the game design is sound as early as possible. So many potential players would come if they realized how good the core game design is, but they'd be chased off by the design flaws. These design fixes aren't exactly ground-breaking either, it's just moving some things around in the tech tree and making sure towers aren't the ridiculous thing they are now.

I talked to someone online the other day who practiced skirmcav rushing and said how he tried to skirmcav rush against a skirmcav rusher and how the other guy was just a bit better at it so he won. is that really what 0 AD is? I've played against borg lots of times and I've had a few ggs with him. I played one game against another top 5 player in ranked and the nub just tower rushed me. Borg plays the game how it was designed to be played, the rest of the "good" players are just exploiting the big design flaws to get the win instead of the fun game. I had another nub exploit the phalanx bug and explain to me how he was a better player than me for knowing about the bug.

http://i.imgur.com/Dj6tpOi.jpg

Design fixes need to be implemented asap. Nothing ground-breaking or difficult, but stuff needs to be fixed.

I for one am passionately against stronger buildings or units in buildings by the way. This includes walls, towers, CCs, I don't care. Players should use a standing army to do their military work, not buildings. see screen shot.

Edited June 9, 2014 by iNcog

[agentx]

> Players should use a standing army to do their military work, not buildings. see screen shot.

Well, military work also includes claiming and guarding territory. I mean, isn't that the whole purpose of arming - to secure or expand your soil? In this sense a tower is just a strong military unit which doesn't run away on attack. Build some siege and level them.

[iNcog]

> Players should use a standing army to do their military work, not buildings. see screen shot.

Well, military work also includes claiming and guarding territory. I mean, isn't that the whole purpose of arming - to secure or expand your soil? In this sense a tower is just a strong military unit which doesn't run away on attack. Build some siege and level them.

Military units suck compared to buildings. See this post: http://www.wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=18791&p=293349

You don't have siege that early in the game so your opponent can just tower rush you and put in some ranged units into the towers and you can't do @#$%. buildings aren't a strong military unit which doesn't run away as of right now, they're broken things that are x10 more cost-effective than actual units.

Edited June 9, 2014 by iNcog

[agentx]

> you can't do @#$%

you can claim the territory upfront or destroy the foundation.

[RoekeloosNL]

The game does not need anything new at the moment, just balance and optimization.

After these two problems solved, then add new material.

LoL You want to stop adding high needed assets. This is a alpha version in a alpha there are things that need to be added to finish civ,s and maps models you name it it all need to be tested. Over time it gets tweaked and balanced, You cant just stop adding content if you do you cant test it and balance it + its takes longer to get 0.A.D out of Alpha and in to Beta.

Edited June 9, 2014 by RoekeloosNL

[iNcog]

> you can't do @#$%

you can claim the territory upfront or destroy the foundation.

That's exactly the point though. Once the buildings go up it's all over, you're fighting a battle of attrition that you can't win anymore. There is no way any ranged unit can compete with a tower as of right now, the pierce armor of the tower is far too high. A tower costs ONLY 200 resources and is invincible to ranged attack. If you garrison ranged units in a tower, then it goes from having relatively high attack to having absurdly high attack. Melee units can't do ANYTHING anymore. Is that really how you want 0 AD to play like? first player to get buildings up wins? It's a race to see who can get their buildings up faster? Come now, you know that's no good. Buildings should serve as defensive support for an army, but buildings shouldn't be strong enough to take on an entire army. Don't talk about siege units either because I'm discussing buildings in early age 2.

Re-read that post of mine and respond to that post instead of taking a single line out of my shorter post. It's so easy to just take a single sentence and argue against that, when I'd already given a counter argument to "claim the territory first or destroy the foundation". I tend to try to always back up what I post with arguments and logic if I can. If someone comes to me and shows me that I'm wrong using a completely fleshed-out and well reasoned argument, I'm not going to argue. This isn't about who's right or wrong, this is about discussing how to make 0 AD a good game. As of right now there are too many design flaws for it to be a truly fun multiplayer game.

Edited June 9, 2014 by iNcog