Celts or Gauls?

[greycat]

I noticed on the maps seeing the term Celt and Gaul. Why are we using a combination of what the Celts called themselves and what the Roman called them?

"who in their own language are called Celts, in ours Gauls"

Julius Caesar

source: http://realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Etruria_the_Etruscans_2a.htm

Edited October 17, 2013 by greycat

[oshron]

well technicaly, there are two Celtic factions: the Gauls represent the Celts of France, and the Britons represent those of the British Isles. it's no surprise that "Celt" and "Celtic" would crop up for both of them, but there's no civ that's just called "Celts". there used to be, but now they're divided into the Brythonic and Gaulish varieties

[greycat]

ok.I see.

Edited October 17, 2013 by greycat

[greycat]

I feel you may be creating false divisions of the Celtic world. Pay attention to underlined text. My source is from a museum in Germany.

b Caesar, de Bello Gallico, lib. vi. c. 17. The Germans derived their origin from Tuisto, apparently the same being as the Celtic Dis or Tis. Tacitus, de Mor Germanorum

source:The Scotish Gaël

http://books.google.com/books?id=n0MDAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

The Rhine issues from the Celtic Alps, a little outside of Rhaetia, and proceeding westward, bounds Gaul and its inhabitants on the left, and the Germans on the right, and finally empties into the ocean. This river has always down to the present time been considered the boundary, ever since these tribes gained their different names; for very anciently both peoples dwelling on either side of the river were called Celts.

Source: Roman History, 39: http://lexundria.com/dio/39/cy

The original Celtic homeland was an area of Austria, near southern Germany. From here they expanded over much of continental Europe and Britain.

From the 3rd century BC large, town-like settlements were established, known as “oppida”. Gaius Julius Caesar came into contact with them during the Gallic War from 58 to 51/50 BC. During the Roman expansion in the 1st century BC, the typical Celtic remains and finds gradually disappeared; the population here gradually adapted to the customs of the new rulers. In the southeast of the British Isles a few objects in the style of the continental Celts are to be found, but since even ancient authors did not describe the Britons as Celts, their inclusion among them is very questionable.

source: Keltenwelt am Glauberg | Museum http://www.keltenwelt-glauberg.de/en/research-centre/the-glauberg/

Edited October 18, 2013 by greycat

[Andrettin]

From the 3rd century BC large, town-like settlements were established, known as “oppida”. Gaius Julius Caesar came into contact with them during the Gallic War from 58 to 51/50 BC. During the Roman expansion in the 1st century BC, the typical Celtic remains and finds gradually disappeared; the population here gradually adapted to the customs of the new rulers. In the southeast of the British Isles a few objects in the style of the continental Celts are to be found, but since even ancient authors did not describe the Britons as Celts, their inclusion among them is very questionable.

source: Keltenwelt am Glauberg | Museum http://www.keltenwelt-glauberg.de/en/research-centre/the-glauberg/

Very interesting. Nevertheless, that same source also includes most of Britain as part of the "Celtic World", so it seems that although they think it is very questionable, it is the best hypothesis avaliable.

[greycat]

Very interesting. Nevertheless, that same source also includes most of Britain as part of the "Celtic World", so it seems that although they think it is very questionable, it is the best hypothesis avaliable.

...But surely modern archeological evidence trumps a hypotheses?

[Andrettin]

...But surely modern archeological evidence trumps a hypotheses?

I'm not sure what you mean? As far as that site is concerned, there's no modern archaeological evidence that confirms that the Britons weren't Celts. The researchers in question seem to find it "very questionable" to classify the Britons as Celts, but nevertheless thought it better than any other alternative, or otherwise they wouldn't have included Britain in their "Celtic World" map.

[greycat]

I'm not sure what you mean? As far as that site is concerned, there's no modern archaeological evidence that confirms that the Britons weren't Celts. The researchers in question seem to find it "very questionable" to classify the Britons as Celts, but nevertheless thought it better than any other alternative, or otherwise they wouldn't have included Britain in their "Celtic World" map.

We have found some evidence of Celts in southern Britain. We have not found cities nor evidence of of a large Celtic presence. Nor have we found evidence of Celtic princes there. The druids... the last remaining of the followers of the Celtic religion were killed 5th century during the time of St. Patrick, the "driving the snakes" out of Ireland. We have only found evidence of them using Stonehenge for roughly 200 years. Stonehenge predates the Celtic civilization (c. 2000 BC). sacred sites where often reused, like churches have been through the ages. This is why every religion claims them as there own, and wars ensue over them.

Edited October 19, 2013 by greycat

[greycat]

"It has been supposed that the Celts who spoke the Celtic form of Aryan were the first of the Aryans to arrive in Europe, and that the Gaels- were the first of the Celts who made their way into the British Isles. The Celts, we are told^ found an aboriginal non-Aryan race in Europe, now represented by the Basques, and dispossessed them. This early occupation of middle and western Europe by the Celts was believed ta account for the Celtic names observed in many parts of the continent, and for the wide refer- ences to the Celts in some of the classical authors. By and by other hordes of Greeks, Latins, Teutons, and Slavs arrived, and, pressing on the Celts, dis- possessed them in turn, forcing them back into the remote peninsulas and islands of the western ocean. Thus it appeared that nearly all the- present inhabitants of Europe were of the same stock originally, and not they alone but some of the Asiatic nations. On the strength of this hypothesis it has been declared that " Celt " and "Saxon," Roman and Greek, not to mention Persian and Hindoo, are brothers of one race. Such is the Celt of philology."

source: The British race (1909) :

http://www.archive.org/stream/britishrace00munruoft/britishrace00munruoft_djvu.txt

http://ia600204.us.archive.org/0/items/britishrace00munruoft/britishrace00munruoft.pdf

Edited October 19, 2013 by greycat

[greycat]

The Celtic language is still represented in France by the " Breizad " or " Breizonic " (that is to say, Bry- thouic) of Brittany, and in the United Kingdom by the " Cjnnric " of Wales, the " Erse " of Ire- land, and its offshoot, the "Gaelic" of the High- lands. 

source: The British race (1909) :

http://www.archive.o...nruoft_djvu.txt

http://ia600204.us.a...e00munruoft.pdf

Edited October 19, 2013 by greycat

[Mythos_Ruler]

Let's find sources a little newer than 1909.

[greycat]

ok.

Edited October 19, 2013 by greycat

[greycat]

source: University of Whales

http://www.wales.ac.uk/Resources/Documents/Research/CelticLanguages/IntroductionBrittanyMaps.pdf

Edited October 19, 2013 by greycat

[greycat]

Celts between ca. 450 ca. 900 migrating into France from southwestern England.

Brittany
Brittany is the name of the north-western peninsula of modern France. The people known as Bretons came from what is now southwestern England on the island of Britain in a series of migrations from the fourth to ninth centuries, most heavily between ca. 450 ca. 600, moving into an area of Gaul inhabited by Latin-speaking Romanized Gauls. They brought with them their Celtic language and culture, which continue today in Lower Brittany. In Upper (eastern) Brittany, Latin eventually evolved into Gallo, a dialect of the French langue d' oïl. This has always been the language of the current capital city of Rennes and the historic capital of Nantes, Brittanys largest city.
Source: see above

Edited October 19, 2013 by greycat

[greycat]

Archaeologists widely agree on two things about the British Iron Age: its many regional cultures grew out of the preceding local Bronze Age, and did not derive from waves of continental 'Celtic' invaders. And secondly, calling the British Iron Age 'Celtic' is so misleading that it is best abandoned.

Dr Simon James is Senior Lecturer in Archaeology at the University of Leicester. He specialises in Iron Age and Roman archaeology, Celtic ethnicity and the archaeology of violence and warfare.

BBC History:http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/british_prehistory/peoples_01.shtml

Edited October 19, 2013 by greycat

[greycat]

However, there is one thing that the Romans, modern archaeologists and the Iron Age islanders themselves would all agree on: they were not Celts. This was an invention of the 18th century; the name was not used earlier. The idea came from the discovery around 1700 that the non-English island tongues relate to that of the ancient continental Gauls, who really were called Celts. This ancient continental ethnic label was applied to the wider family of languages. But 'Celtic' was soon extended to describe insular monuments, art, culture and peoples, ancient and modern: island 'Celtic' identity was born, like Britishness, in the 18th century.

source: previous post

[greycat]

Celtic Peoples of Roman Britain

Edited October 19, 2013 by greycat

[Andrettin]

We have found some evidence of Celts in southern Britain. We have not found cities nor evidence of of a large Celtic presence. Nor have we found evidence of Celtic princes there. The druids... the last remaining of the followers of the Celtic religion were killed 5th century during the time of St. Patrick, the "driving the snakes" out of Ireland. We have only found evidence of them using Stonehenge for roughly 200 years. Stonehenge predates the Celtic civilization (c. 2000 BC). sacred sites where often reused, like churches have been through the ages. This is why every religion claims them as there own, and wars ensue over them.

Ah ok thanks, I missed that

[greycat]

Ah ok thanks, I missed that

Always good to share knowledge.

Edited October 19, 2013 by greycat

[Lion.Kanzen]

Tribes from what land and what culture?

[greycat]

Tribes from what land and what culture?

"Celtic Britain"

Edited October 19, 2013 by greycat

[greycat]

So we know they were there from at least c. 50 AD at least...at the moment.

Edited October 19, 2013 by greycat

[Lion.Kanzen]

Celtics from Roman Province 50AD ?

So the Roman calling this celts Britons from Britania?

Edited October 19, 2013 by Lion.Kanzen

[greycat]

After Gaul was back under Roman control. Caesar went there.

Edited October 19, 2013 by greycat

[Lion.Kanzen]

Caesar was there in a century before Claudius Campaign.