Stuff about the celts

[Ansuz]

Hello everyone !

I'm new here, i discovered the game last week, and i need to say that i'm very impressed by the quality of your work ! I'm a french archaeology student, specialised in "protohistory" (bronze and iron age in France). I have some suggestion,i hope that i'm in the good section. I'll try to do my best in english, and not be too boring.

I will make some post about the Gallics, they will be related to an aspect of the game each time. Take this like a post about the last archaeological discoveries of the gauls.

The lastest news will be in Bold !

Introduction :

Gallics were exellent traders, craftmens, farmers, and of course warriors... but it's always difficult to describe them. For a long time they were depicted like barbarian, stupid and violent. Text made by Roman or Greek author were not true all the time. To be fair, if the celtics tribes had a chance to do the same (supposing they choose to wrote), i think that they won't say only beautiful things about their neighbors ...

Of course that could be explained, for exemple, Bellum Gallicum , wrote by Caesar is also a propaganda text, he needs argument during the war, and depict the celtic tribes as nice and peaceful people were not the best idea to convice the senat that they should invade the gauls.

The confrontation between excavation and text is very usefull, it allow us to find the better theory about life of the gallics, since twenty or thirty years major improvement were made. We can point out the truth and the lies between the different text, name some discovery made during an excavation...

In some subjects they were better than the mediteranean people. But in other they were worse.

A / Stuff irrevealent to the game :

This part is especially about the things that won't impact on the gameplay, but may be interesting to know. I'll try to present the way of life of the gallics.

For exemple :

-Better ship (Caesar says it himself during the battle against the Venetes in Brittany), strongest because made for the Atlantic ocean an not the mediteranean sea.

-Better chariot (also carriage, wagon ...), they also invented the Vallus (prototype of the combine Harvester), and an important road system (that Caesar didn't forget to use btw...). So they had a very good trading system, they were able to make Lille-Marseille in less than a month.

-they invented the horseshoes (the roman use another thing called "hypposandale", i don't know the word in english).

-They invented the chainmail, and the curb/chain for fix the sheath to the hip, also the milimeter iron sheet (used for the whell, the barells, the cauldron and more).

-They we're able to craft glass (it appears that Roman learn that from them)

-They were not barbarian : rasor, mirror, invention of the soap and the matress. So they were pretty clean (for some of them).

-They were using pants unlike the mediteranean people, called "Braies".

-They also invented the salting for meat (smoked ham) and were expert of salt trading (in antiquities, salt is one of the most important resource because it's the only way to storing meat/fish ...).

B / Stuff that could be added :

10/07/13 : Today i want to present you an odd instrument : The Carnyx

The peasant were sometimes archer, skirmisher, slingers, but some of them were also carrying the "carnyx", it's like a big trumpet, there goal is to affraid the ennemy, and it should be very impressive. Some carnyx were found on the excavation made in Tintiniac in 2004, pics below are from a reconstruction of gallic battle :

http://lemovicesenfete.canalblog.com/archives/2012/09/21/25150632.html

It's a wild boar... it's often the wild boar that is choosen by the gallics, but a snake-head carnyx was found in Tintiniac.

They were mention and sculptur of the carnyx, but this objet stay very uncommon, 7 were found in Tintiniac, so that an incredible discoveries.

Tintiniac carnyx

John Kenny is the expert of the Carnyx today :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYM0xB5Jrc0

I think the Carnyx should be implemented in the game, i don't know how, but this will be great ! Like a special unit for buff or somehing like that. it's one the major specificities of a gallics armies in battle. There is a lot of picture about it on the internet. They was an old topic (2008) about the subject, i made this one aniway because i hope to see it in the future, but i'm aware that it may be really hard to do. I will present more interesting things in the next post.

C / Stuff that should be modified :

About the war :

-The hearth of the Gallic army is cavalry, they are really fond of horses, and they bought it from very far away (the gallic horse is short, and loke like a pony, but for the war they were able to use bigger horse, coming from other lands). After that they is also the trained infantry and mercenaries, well-equiped. The rest of the army is made of peasants and ineperienced people.

-

About architecture :

We know today that the classic fortification is called the Murus Gallicus

-

About the religion :

10/10/2013 - Celtic sanctuary of Gournay-sur-Aronde has been found thirty years ago, it was the only exemple of celtic sanctuary found in France (with the one found in Ribemont-sur-Ancre) for a long time. Today the gallics sanctuary are more documented. In the central europa they're called "viereckschanzen", in France "enceinte quadrangulaire" (quadrangular enclosure).

Far away of the "cliché" shown in the text, gallics do have sanctuary, we used to think they were just praying in the forest or near a river, to a sacred tree or stone, for a long time. In fact some text we're talking about the harvesting of the mistletoe (see Plinius, Natural History, tome XVI, p. 249-251), they're thrue, but these places aren't sanctuary, just place of ceremonies or private processions (like the druids meeting in the carnute forest).

The best exemple of Gallic sanctuary is probably Gournay-sur-Aronde, this is some picture and reconstruction of the building :

there is a pit in the building, probably for the sacrifice (like sheeps, pigs ...)

I really like this reconstruction !

http://www.iesr.ephe.sorbonne.fr/docannexe/file/6750/doc_2.jpg

(this one is too big for the forum)

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

This post will be completed after each post

Edited October 11, 2013 by Ansuz

[sanderd17]

Your post is interesting, but it would be nicer if you could structure it a bit more (like things that are currently in the game, things that can easily be added, and other propositions). Anyway, I have some remarks here. Also some citations would be nice.

Introduction :

Gallics were exellent traders, craftmens, farmers, and of course warriors...

In some subjects they were better than the mediteranean people.

About wood and iron for exemple :

-Better ship (Caesar says it himself during the battle against the Venetes in Brittany), strongest because made for the Atlantic ocean an not the mediteranean sea.

The game has a bigger ship for the Celts. The capacity of their ship is 40 soldiers instead of 30. They don't have a quinquireme though because it's not historical. AFAIK, their ships were multi-purpose.

-Better chariot (also carriage, wagon ...), they also invented the Vallus (prototype of the combine Harvester), and an important road system (that Caesar didn't forget to use btw...). So they had a very good trading system, they were able to make Lille-Marseille in less than a month.

A lot of other factions are also known for good trade. I'd like to have a reference comparing the trade capabilities of civilisations in that time frame.

-they invented the horseshoes (the roman use another thing called "hypposandale", i don't know the word in english).

Citation? Did the invention happen in the timeframe (500-1 BC)? Or afterwards?

-They invented the chainmail, and the curb/chain for fix the sheath to the hip, also the milimeter iron sheet (used for the whell, the barells, the cauldron and more).

-They were able to craft glass (it appears that Roman learn that from them)

-They were not barbarian : rasor, mirror, invention of the soap and the matress. So they were pretty clean (for some of them).

Citation and relavance to the game? The sources I find say the Romans learned glass making from the Greeks for example.

-They were using pants unlike the mediteranean people, called "Braies".

That's how their models are in game

-They also invented the salting for meat (smoked ham) and were expert of salt trading (in antiquities, salt is one of the most important resource because it's the only way to storing meat/fish ...).

About the war :

-The hearth of the Gallic army is cavalry, they are really fond of horses, and they bought it from very far away (the gallic horse is short, and loke like a pony, but for the war they were able to use bigger horse, coming from other lands). After that they is also the trained infantry and mercenaries, well-equiped. The rest of the army is made of peasants and ineperienced people.

-

About architecture :

We know today that the classic fortification is called the Murus Gallicus

That sounds Latin to me

-

About the religion :

-

This post will be completed after each post

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Today i want to present you an odd instrument : The Carnyx

When formations finally work, there's some possibility to add a "flag" unit (like a Roman unit carrying the SPQR flag). For Celts, this could be a unit carrying the Carnyx. We need to remember this one.

[serveurix]

I don't know about the model, but I've read on the Attack Notification topic that some people are thinking about giving a different Attack Notification sound depending on the civilization, and I'd love to hear some Carnyx (for the Celts) and Buccina (for the Romans) sounds in the game.

It looks like wikimedia has a Carnyx sound already : https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Carnyx

[Ludo38]

Bonjour Ansuz ! Bienvenue au forum 0 A.D. et merci pour ta contribution fort intéressante!

(eh oui, je suis français aussi )

I didn't know about the Carnyx, this war instrument, but it's definitely an interesting feature to implement into the Celt tribes of the game. I don't think this would be difficult to make, because the Carnyx would work as a sort of weapon or spell keeping the soldiers away or at least slowing them down, so it would make a unit in itself, I guess, in a similar way as the healing units who are no armed but can be useful on the battlefield anyway.

I recommend you rename the thread, because "Stuff about the celts" is very vague. Maybe "Suggestions for the Celts" or "Cultural details for the Celts"

Anyway, it's cool to have an archeology student around here! There must be others in the forum, I don't know...

[Lion.Kanzen]

Thank you for posting friend , I love the sound of Carnyx. I was posted that in other post, some times I suggest a support unit to give stat bonus for a few seconds to the units, Ike vexillum carrier, spartan flautist and this can be good.

In art forum I mentioned about the pans and how differentiate Britons and Gauls.

[Mega Mania]

Wonderful, Ansuz.

[Ansuz]

Your post is interesting, but it would be nicer if you could structure it a bit more (like things that are currently in the game, things that can easily be added, and other propositions). Anyway, I have some remarks here. Also some citations would be nice.

The game has a bigger ship for the Celts. The capacity of their ship is 40 soldiers instead of 30. They don't have a quinquireme though because it's not historical. AFAIK, their ships were multi-purpose.

A lot of other factions are also known for good trade. I'd like to have a reference comparing the trade capabilities of civilisations in that time frame.

Citation? Did the invention happen in the timeframe (500-1 BC)? Or afterwards?

Citation and relavance to the game? The sources I find say the Romans learned glass making from the Greeks for example.

That's how their models are in game

That sounds Latin to me

When formations finally work, there's some possibility to add a "flag" unit (like a Roman unit carrying the SPQR flag). For Celts, this could be a unit carrying the Carnyx. We need to remember this one.

I'm currently working on the first post.

I've add a part on the sanctuary, i keep this one for the answer !

Firstly, thank you a lot for your participations, secondly :

to @sanderd17 :

I'll take my time and play the game a bit more, I don't want to miss some things, but for the boats it fit pretty well in fact. I'll make some research about the gallics boats.

A lot of other factions are also known for good trade. I'd like to have a reference comparing the trade capabilities of civilisations in that time frame.

The trade is a classic problem, like any other RTS, the gallics are suposed to be bad in trade, in sea, in a lot of things, because we lack of information.

I'm not saying that they're the best (of course no) but they have some qualities, like any other civs in the game. So they've an average trading system :

-Tin, or salt trade, (add the copper for the briton) for the raw materialrs. Fo the roman it could be oil and wine for exemple.

-Iron tools, wooden objects, and more (fibula, rasor, matress, ... has I said in my first post).

-They were mintings their own coins.

-The best thing about the gallics trade is probably the road system and the transport, they made exellent wheels, and chariot, faster than the others, because of the horseshoes of the horse, or the iron circle around the wheel (it's harder).

They were a lot of vehicule known has gallics :

-the carros (classic gallics chariot)

-the carpentum (covered wagon, like a carriage) used by the roman after the conquest.

another carpentum, for ceremonial i think.

-the petoritum and the raeda (four whelled chariot)

-the Plaustrum (another chariot but i need to go deeper ...)

The best advantage for the gallics is not the things they trade, but the way they transport it, in my opinion. Each civs have special habilities in trade aniway, Gallics one should be diversified (different chariot choice) or faster than the other ...

Citation? Did the invention happen in the timeframe (500-1 BC)? Or afterwards?

I was forgetting the horseshoes, yes, there is some proof now, especially a thesis work made by Gérôme Pieuchot-Ravisy "le fer à cheval à l'époque celtique" (Horseshoes in celtic period). They're konw since the IIe B.C. in central europa. But it work the same way has the Hyppo-sandals, with less iron used.

(also a good website for the hyppo-sandals : http://www.romancoins.info/MilitaryEquipment-Horse.html )

For these things I think that the Gallics Blacksmith should be very complete, maybe some technology could be added (i'm still thinking about it).

The sources I find say the Romans learned glass making from the Greeks for example.

For the Glass, I found different citation, the one I use were from Plinius (Natural History as usual ...), but it doesn't seems to be exactly right, in fact Gallics made a different use of glass than the Greeks or the Egyptian, it wasn't for vessels, but more for pearl, necklaces or bracelet. So it's more complicated that I thought previously.

That sounds Latin to me

For the Murrus Gallicus I'll make a post about it, Caesar called this wall like that but we don't know the name used by the gallics.

When formations finally work, there's some possibility to add a "flag" unit (like a Roman unit carrying the SPQR flag). For Celts, this could be a unit carrying the Carnyx. We need to remember this one.

@Serveurix/Ludo38/Sanderd17 => About the flag unit, this idea could be a good compromise !

@Ludo38 : Ah génial, j'ai vu qu'il y avait quelques autres français sur le forum, bonne nouvelle

I know that this will be difficult to do, the flag unit may be a good compromise !

@Lion.Kanzen : I'll help, if i can find some picture, for reconstruction ! Totally agree with you, we need to separate this civs and give them more specificate attribute.

@Megamania : Thank you

[Ludo38]

Just found an interesting article about a new book about the geography of the Celt world :

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/bookreviews/10372050/The-Ancient-Paths-Discovering-the-Lost-Map-of-Celtic-Europe-review.html

" The Ancient Paths: Discovering the Lost Map of Celtic Europe, review

Tim Martin has his eyes opened by an enthralling new history that argues that Druids created a sophisticated ancient society to rival the Romans"

A suggested similar article also from the Telegraph :

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/booknews/10367457/Roman-roads-were-actually-built-by-the-Celts-new-book-claims.html

"'Roman' roads were actually built by the Celts, new book claims

The myth of straight Roman roads has been exposed by a new book which claims the extraordinary engineering feats were the work of the Celts."

[Lion.Kanzen]

Is good idea a common unit like mauryan elephant, a mobile cart to recollect food, wood and minerals .

For secon part EB (Empires Besieged)

Edited October 17, 2013 by Lion.Kanzen

[Ansuz]

Yes, we know today that the road were made by the gallics, and that was -already- an important system, Caesar used and improved them afterwards !

About the gauls, their major advantage were the food production, and their knowledge about wood and iron. With these things, they're able to support a large amount of population, 10 Million in the 1rst century B.C according to Christian Goudineau (That probably one of the most populated part of the roman empire... it became the granary of rome). But these numbers are submited to some controversies.

The work of iron and wood show us the talent of their craftmans, especially with one invention that combines these three fields : the vallus !

Its a reaper, there is some picture on the internet, but also a good article on this website :

http://www.gnrtr.com/Generator.html?pi=208&cp=3

Basically its just another idea of common unit like you said !

Edit :

I've found some older post made by french people about the gallics like this one :

http://www.wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=11290&page=2#entry200460

And it's just cool to see that some idea were eventually added !Like the rectangular houses coming soon, and other stuff (especially gaesates) !

Edited October 21, 2013 by Ansuz

[greycat]

Good info. Yes. The Romans were very good at adopting others ideas. They even adopted Gallic helmet designs into their own...

Edited October 21, 2013 by greycat

[greycat]

Edited November 13, 2013 by greycat

[greycat]

[greycat]

Edited October 22, 2013 by greycat

[greycat]

[Ansuz]

Great job ! Thanks !

The helmet in the last picture is known as the Ciumesti's helmet, found in romania :

Recently there is a single type of helmet found in Tintiniac, swan-shaped :

That not a war helmet, but probably a ceremonial helmet. But i'didn't found drawing of this one...

Edit : forget what I said previously :

Edited October 22, 2013 by Ansuz

[greycat]

A couple more of Celts during The Carthaginian Wars, 256-146BC

Edited November 9, 2013 by greycat

[Rodmar]

About mail armour:

Citation and relevance to the game? The sources I find say the Romans learned glass making from the Greeks for example.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mail_(armour)

The earliest example of chain mail was found in a Celtic chieftain's burial located in Ciumeşti, Romania.[1] Its invention is commonly credited to the Celts,[2] but there are examples of Etruscan pattern mail predating from at least the 4th century BC.[3][4][5] Mail may have been inspired by the much earlier scale armour.

It is believed that the Roman Republic first came into contact with mail fighting the Gauls in Cisalpine Gaul, now Northern Italy,[13] but even earlier in time, different pattern of chain mail was already in use among the Etruscans.

Nothing is told about how Etruscans learned the mail armour. Maybe from their Gaulish neighbours, or from the Celts beyond them, in Norica ? (Ciumesti graves are dated from the 4th century).

What could differentiate Gauls from Brittons in game?

- Gallia may have been more urbanized and inhabited than Britain.

The "gaulish wall" was much estimated by the Roman, because its composite nature could absorb the impact from catapults and batter rams better than an all stone/brick wall.

Gaulish citizen could be more numerous but less fight-able (more peasant-like). I mean that they were not citizen-soldiers like Hellenes or Romans.

(Maybe less military units in early game)

- Northern Celts were deemed by the Roman as being more "savage" (that could mean "fierce"): maybe the Brittons could stay as they are, less romanized, less urbanized, keeping with the chariot, etc.

- Gaulish tribes seem to have had quite specialized separated economies, and their territorial borders were following landscape changes (keeping on the same general landscape).

The Gauls could have a penalty/advantage in economy, such as being unable to specialize both in mining/harvesting/farming and herding at the same time (for the same tribe), but having a bonus technology in the same chosen economy (double herding/farming/mining). This system would be even more drastic than the current "make a choice" system because if you'd choose farming, you would have less mining tech available, etc.).

- The Iceni case:

I'm not sure (read that this is an undocumented idea) whether AD southern Britain Celts should be used to depict the earlier Brittons. According to various maps, the Iceni were a Belgian tribe much in relation with the continent. Maybe they had acquired and trained a heavy cavalry by the times Roma invaded Britain. But BC ? If they kept up to their chariotry (several centuries more than the continental Celts), maybe it is because they didn't had horses tall enough to replace them. They didn't had the Gaulish cavalry yet? Or was it really because they had a strong and change-resistant, more "traditional" warrior cast?

What is not clear in the game is how the Celts had a strong tripartite social hierarchy.

I don't see how to implement this in game. Maybe:

The sacerdotal cast:

- give druids in battle and in town defense a moral boost aura.

- give druids a slight bonus when they are in groups of druids.

- or/and add a bard unit that would be a moral/offensive booster in battle.

The warrior cast:

- besides champions, keep only two citizen soldiers and soldiers: the skirmisher and the spearman. No fanatic, no cavalry skirmisher (they would be champions). Those champions would form the warrior cast, only recruited at the barracks and the fortress.

The worker cast:

- those free men, able craftsmen, could enlist only in basic "horde" infantry, less able in 1-vs-1 than most of the other citizen soldiers throughout the game (to be balanced).

[greycat]

Tiro, some good ideas.

The druids would have been exempt from military service though, historically speaking.

Edited November 12, 2013 by greycat