Team Bonuses

[idanwin]

Do team bonuses stack. I mean: if two people choose romans, do the roman team bonuses get applied twice? Or just once?

If they only got applied once (and if there was a warning message saying so when multiple players have the same civ in a game lobby) this might encourage team players to choose different civs, so UP civs get more chance of being chosen (because, admit it, some civs will always under powered)

Edited April 3, 2013 by idanwin

[Lion.Kanzen]

hmm not ba idea.

[alpha123]

(because, admit it, some civs will always under powered)

Nope, I'm not going to admit that. All civs will the be same strength and none of them will be better or worse against specific other civs. Different civs will just have different strategies that they work better with (e.g. Iberians will be more suited to guerrilla warfare and less suited to Greek phalanx type stuff).

[Lion.Kanzen]

some civs are underpower in some ways, you dont hope to see Mauryan Spearman vs Greek Hoplite, have same stats, , but all are Balancing after all.

[alpha123]

some civs are underpower in some ways, you dont hope to see Mauryan Spearman vs Greek Hoplite, have same stats, , but all are Balancing after all.

Exactly. A Mauryan player isn't going to go into a spearmen fight against Greeks... that would be a bad idea. Instead they might use elephants to trample the spearmen, and lots of archers attacking from a distance.

Some civs will be stronger in some areas than others, obviously. That's what makes the game interesting. But overall they will be the same strength. I will not settle for less.

[Lion.Kanzen]

Exactly. A Mauryan player isn't going to go into a spearmen fight against Greeks... that would be a bad idea. Instead they might use elephants to trample the spearmen, and lots of archers attacking from a distance.

Some civs will be stronger in some areas than others, obviously. That's what makes the game interesting. But overall they will be the same strength. I will not settle for less.

Scisso Rock and Paper. the thing is Civs are to every player, example im not good with Celts and dont like play with them.

[idanwin]

Balancing them is impossible.

That's just how it is; we can do our best, but in the end one civ in a 1v1 always has some advantage over the other. Of course this may not have a lot of effect on the game; it depends much more on the strategies of the players, but as seen with less elaborate games (e.g. AoE 1) some civs are just stronger than others and become the only ones chosen by 'competition' players. Not having stacked bonuses would push teams in matches to not all take the same civ which they consider stronger.

When this game becomes a widely played and carefully analysed game, people are going to start discussing tactics on high level and as this continues balancing 'errors' will turn up. It is impossible to balance two civs perfectly unless they are identical.

But everyone likes diversity :-)

[alpha123]

Starcraft refutes all your points. In 1v1 each race does not have an advantage over the other, and there's no reason we can't do that.

It is certain possible to balance two civs perfectly without them being identical. See Starcraft again. Their races are much more different from each other than are civs are, so it should actually be considerably easier for us to do that.

[Pedro Falcão]

In a certain sense, he's right. Starcraft's units may be well balanced, but it is easier to do some strategies than others. For instance, A "cannon rush" was the easiest protoss strategy against terran players (the easiest strategy in the game, TBH) because the zergs had the creep to block building next to mineral line and the protoss could just use the same strategy. Meanwhile, the MMM terran strategy (Medivac/Marine/Maurader) would be easier against protoss than zergs becausethe zergs have the combo Hydralisks+Roaches that decimate those squishy terran units. And, as every race has their weaknesses, the Protoss would fare better against the zergs with a 8-portals rush (while the massive number of squishy ranged units of the terran could handle that) and the terrans with a good number of siege tanks. This all is what makes one think a certain civ is better against another one.

[alpha123]

In a certain sense, he's right. Starcraft's units may be well balanced, but it is easier to do some strategies than others.

Right. It's supposed to be easier to do some strategies than others. Our Celtic civs are going to be a whole lot easier to pull off hit-and-run tactics with than the Spartans, for example, while Romans can besiege a large area and starve the opponent out of resources much more easily than a Mauryan player.

For instance, A "cannon rush" was the easiest protoss strategy against terran players

Let me know how that goes. If you're playing a reasonably competent Terran, he'll just lift up and move to the natural... a cannon rush basically only works on Protoss (just because they can do it also doesn't mean they will).

I'm also OK with some civs being more open cheesy tactics like that.

Meanwhile, the MMM terran strategy (Medivac/Marine/Maurader) would be easier against protoss than zergs becausethe zergs have the combo Hydralisks+Roaches that decimate those squishy terran units.

Right, because Psi Storm and Colossi won't work at all in that situation... also if you scout and see the Zerg going Roach/hydra, you might want to build something other than marine/marauder.

Again, really it comes down to strategy and not simply massing a few units that are extremely good against the enemy civ. Of course some units should be more useful against others. For example, an Athenian player could scout and see that his opponent is going for massed cavalry, then he should start training a lot of spearmen. However, massed spearmen shouldn't be good against EVERYTHING the Persian player can throw at him.

[Burzum]

The nature of the reality is that... Rome and Greece are pretty much the best 'civilized' civilizations out there...

Anything else was pretty barbaric and uncivilized. No one with a great knowledge of history and the sciences of the time will ever deny this.

I think people like to defend the lesser civilized nations because they might share a common ancestry connection or generally take a liking to that civilization, which is okay, but one needs to realize that if you going to compare apples to oranges, one needs to know which of the two was more advanced and beneficial to society and man kinds evolutionary advancement through the ages. Which one effectively propelled us down a trajectory of progress as it were.

I left out Persia, Egypt, China because Rome used their might to an effect that influenced cultuers at a greater level.

[Pedro Falcão]

Let me know how that goes. If you're playing a reasonably competent Terran, he'll just lift up and move to the natural... a cannon rush basically only works on Protoss (just because they can do it also doesn't mean they will).

I'm also OK with some civs being more open cheesy tactics like that.

I see.

Not that it is that much of a feat (because it isn't at all), but i got to silver league using only cannon rush/4-portal rush.

Right, because Psi Storm and Colossi won't work at all in that situation... also if you scout and see the Zerg going Roach/hydra, you might want to build something other than marine/marauder.

Again, really it comes down to strategy and not simply massing a few units that are extremely good against the enemy civ. Of course some units should be more useful against others.

Problem is... You don't have time to build enough colossi, much less to train high templars.

But whatever, this isn't about Starcraft, i was just trying to say that Idanwin is right in the sense that some civs have a strategy difficulty advantage agaisnt others.

And Burzum, i strongly disagree with you. I won't discuss it here, it isn't the right place, but if you want to explain your point in another topic in the off-topic discussion area, i'll show you mine, too.

[alpha123]

lol. That poor Terran player. Any strategy works against a sufficiently noobish opponent though.

You could definitely get Colossi in the time it takes to mass marines. You just have to scout, notice that it's likely the opponent will go marines, you'll have time. Now if they catch you by surprise maybe you don't have stuff to counter. That's why collecting intelligence on the enemy is so important in RTS games.

[Mythos_Ruler]

Starcraft refutes all your points. In 1v1 each race does not have an advantage over the other, and there's no reason we can't do that.

It is certain possible to balance two civs perfectly without them being identical. See Starcraft again. Their races are much more different from each other than are civs are, so it should actually be considerably easier for us to do that.

A point I brought up in the IRC channel was that 0 A.D. has to stick to relatively realistic and historical solutions to balance problems. For a fantasy or sci-fi game, if in testing one civ is underpowered the developers could just invent some kind of unit or bonus to eliminate that weakness. To stay within the themes of 0 A.D., we can't really do too much of that, if at all. We have to come up with some kind of justification for adding this or that unit or bonus. I'm not saying it is impossible, but ours is the more difficult task if you wish to compare the development of 0 A.D.'s factions with Starcraft's. We just have to be more creative, in a way, than Blizzard had/has to be. Yeah, I said it! We have to be MORE creative than those building a fantasy sci-fi game, because we have real conceptual limitations to work around where they had none or few. Constraints encourage and enforce creativity in this regard.

[quantumstate]

Going back to the original topic, team bonuses will not stack.

[av93]

The nature of the reality is that... Rome and Greece are pretty much the best 'civilized' civilizations out there...

Anything else was pretty barbaric and uncivilized. No one with a great knowledge of history and the sciences of the time will ever deny this.

I think people like to defend the lesser civilized nations because they might share a common ancestry connection or generally take a liking to that civilization, which is okay, but one needs to realize that if you going to compare apples to oranges, one needs to know which of the two was more advanced and beneficial to society and man kinds evolutionary advancement through the ages. Which one effectively propelled us down a trajectory of progress as it were.

I left out Persia, Egypt, China because Rome used their might to an effect that influenced cultuers at a greater level.

Please, Imho you're very etnocentric. Remember that these "civilized" people had half of the population serving as slaves. I'm not really an expert historian but i can say that the writings about the "barbarian people" were written by their enemies, they needed to support their conquest by their "superior" culture, so they show the other civs as uncivilized.

I'm a social antrophologist I can say that you have evolutionist ideas, there are not minor or major civs, there are not more advanced civs (in wich way?), there are not ages that all civs have to follow. There a lot of things that make us all things be like are now...

Sorry for the offtopic, maybe is important to make a topic against the "barbarian idea" of the other cultures

Edited April 13, 2013 by av93

[Lion.Kanzen]

Do it Open Other Topic, many of our think Celts, Iberians like Barbarians, Even Greeks Thinking in Romans and Persians as barbarian.

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Now i Think may be Team that are play with same Civilization access to Extra Bonus. That bonus are not available if you don't join in a team with other player that are play with same, Civilization.

[Pedro Falcão]

Sorry for the offtopic, maybe is important to make a topic against the "barbarian idea" of the other cultures

This topic was the result:

http://www.wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=17202&hl

Ok, now for real, stick to the topic, guys.

[Lion.Kanzen]

This topic was the result:

http://www.wildfireg...wtopic=17202

Ok, now for real, stick to the topic, guys.

thank you for make me know.