Celtic Buildings

[Zeta1127]

Indeed, the art department has already got to design the Mauryan Indians, so the best that could be done at the moment is to brainstorm on what exactly should be done.

[WhiteTreePaladin]

Yeah, I would prefer skulls instead of heads. Would fit better with our rating goal of "teen" and I think it would look better too as it stands out more from a distance.

[Mythos_Ruler]

Yeah, I would prefer skulls instead of heads. Would fit better with our rating goal of "teen" and I think it would look better too as it stands out more from a distance.

First, does WFG really have a "rating goal"? Is the game going to be submitted to a ratings board? Secondly, I doubt the difference between heads or skulls would sway the rating significantly.

[AbdelMuhamar]

Yeah I get that there are more important priorities

But we can plan a brainstorming for the celts. And at least put a reminder for the future about improving them. I don't want this thread to be forgotten 1 month later.

So maybe we should put in the task list : brainstorm for improvement of celtic building.

[Mythos_Ruler]

I get that you don't like the round huts (even though they did use round huts in reality, but used blockhouses and tenements in the bigger settlements)... but what exactly about the Market and Civ Centre do you object to?

[historic_bruno]

they did use round huts in reality, but used blockhouses and tenements in the bigger settlements

What if we did both. Starting in the village phase they build round huts, then upon reaching another phase (city?) they can build blockhouses/tenements maybe with a pop bonus. Should be easy to do with technologies, assuming we want to have these different models.

[AbdelMuhamar]

I get that you don't like the round huts (even though they did use round huts in reality, but used blockhouses and tenements in the bigger settlements)... but what exactly about the Market and Civ Centre do you object to?

no i've actually got nothing really against round huts. The poorer celts did lived in round huts, but only the poorer. The middle class and the citizen build mostly bigger houses.

What I don't like about the overall design is what I already explained : it's a bit disappointing when you compare them to the other civilizations. The celts buildings looks like village buildings. Just look at their civic center and compare them to any other civ's ones : the civic center looks like a simple big house.

There is also a clear lack of artwork (there are some primitive one) or overall greatness that the other civs buildings has. The celtic settlements overall look like a village while the others civ's settlements looks like actual cities.

Again, the military structures are fine, but you should consider actually making some building more...imposing, both in finesse and size (not the model size on the map but the proportions in the models). Not everything has to be changed, as the overall textures and shapes feel celtic, but more finesse should be added, as well as making things more imposing, more ''glorious''.

PS: Having the huts only in the village phase is a good idea

[Mythos_Ruler]

What if we did both. Starting in the village phase they build round huts, then upon reaching another phase (city?) they can build blockhouses/tenements maybe with a pop bonus. Should be easy to do with technologies, assuming we want to have these different models.

I actually like this. The Britons and Gauls (or perhaps just the Gauls, for differentiation) gain access to longhouses in the City Phase, with double the pop bonus (like the standard Greek houses). Perhaps then the same thing can be done for the Romans and allow them to build "Insulae" (apartment buildings/tenements) in City Phase.

[Zeta1127]

Changing the pop bonus of houses in the town and/or city phases for certain civs sounds like a great plan for adding another level of uniqueness to the civs.

Edited July 6, 2012 by Zeta1127

[MishFTW]

What if we did both. Starting in the village phase they build round huts, then upon reaching another phase (city?) they can build blockhouses/tenements maybe with a pop bonus. Should be easy to do with technologies, assuming we want to have these different models.

If I may interject, if we do this it would only be fair to include the different types of Roman houses. The normal domus, the insulae (apartments) and the large country houses (villas).

[Zeta1127]

The villas would be great for the city phase.

[WhiteTreePaladin]

First, does WFG really have a "rating goal"? Is the game going to be submitted to a ratings board? Secondly, I doubt the difference between heads or skulls would sway the rating significantly.

Officially, no. We won't be submitting it for a rating and we aren't subject to any rules. I do think I remember the goal being to stay along Age of Empires lines. I think "teen" was specifically mentioned, but that was awhile ago. Rating aside, I do think skulls would look better. The heads tend to blend in; I forget that they are even there most of the time.

(AoK did have heads on poles in the scenario editor, but the detail was obviously very low.)

[Zeta1127]

dont forget the Domus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domus

If I may interject, if we do this it would only be fair to include the different types of Roman houses. The normal domus, the insulae (apartments) and the large country houses (villas).

And besides, the domus is already the Roman house.

Edited July 6, 2012 by Zeta1127

[Mythos_Ruler]

If I may interject, if we do this it would only be fair to include the different types of Roman houses. The normal domus, the insulae (apartments) and the large country houses (villas).

I could see doing this if what's available as the Roman "house" is just replaced upon Phasing up. e.g., in Village Phase, you can build the Domus, then in Town Phase the option to build the Domus is replaced with Insulae, then in City Phase the option to build an Insulae is replaced by Villas. Dunno.

Though, I'd rather just do it in a simplified way and just have Insulae become available in City Phase.

[Mythos_Ruler]

Question: Who were more known for war dogs, the Brythonic Celts or the mainland Celts?

[AbdelMuhamar]

Question: Who were more known for war dogs, the Brythonic Celts or the mainland Celts?

Hum... that's a good question. My guess would be the Brythonic Celts, since I never heard that the gauls were particularly known for their war dogs. But I could be wrong.

Now, about the celtic buildings, having played all day, I definitively think that they are unfairly rudimentary compared to all the other civs. So they could be reworked a bit.

I know this kind of things takes a lot of times, so what we could do is just to put it in the list of things to do in an undetermined future. But at least we should put it. So that it won't be forgotten.

[Mythos_Ruler]

It wouldn't hurt to make a list of suggestions and then we'll see what can be done and what should (not) be done based on time and gameplay considerations.

[AbdelMuhamar]

Sounds like a good plan. I'll think about some more precise suggestions for the buildings.

Well the first one that comes to my mind is :

-add more decorations and art

-replace the fleshed heads by head skulls

-The huts are only for the village phase

-make the civic center look bigger : right now it looks like a big house. Kind of small when you know that some cities had over 100K inhabitant. The model for the civic center could almost be used for the last phase houses. It should look more imposing overall, and also have more low relief.

I think the whole model for the civic center should be changed. It looks too much ''small time'' for a civic center. Make it more complex, like the other ones.

-overall put some more low relief on the walls, even on the roofs.

-about the roofs, most of them were made of straw, yes, but you would expect some of the richest people or the important buildings to have nicer roofs. So maybe the market, civic center and especially the temple could have some wooden parts on the roofs, where they could be some decorations.

- More sculptures around. Two rocks with some basic drawing on them are definitively not state of the art... art.

-the top of the walls : why are the wall fences looks so chaotic? Why aren't the walls perfectly made like all the other civs? Why does it have to always look so poorly constructed?

-market : market looks too small. It should have more drapery, wall covering. It should have several floors.

- temple : make it look more like an actual temple, a place of knowledge. This is were there should be the more low relief, columns, sculptures. It should be the most refined buildings of all, because it is often the heart of a civilization. It should have Have more height. It should be made mostly of stone and woods, not straw. Of all the building, this should be the nicest.

In general, the more important things, and also the simplest and quickest to change :

1. Overall, everything should be more colorful. They were master dyers, show it : more drapery, more paintings. Definitively MORE paintings. The whole Celtic town really lacks color right now. It looks mourn,

2. Neater feeling : shapes more perfect, the overall buildings should look more perfectly done, no errors, no holes, no stuff lying around. None of the other civilizations look that messy, celts weren't more messy than any other.

3. More height to some of the buildings : The market, civic center and maybe some others could have one more floor or two.

That was all I could come up to for now, but i thinks that's a start. I will try to be even more specific after that.

PS : I also forgot the docks : it looks too small again, and way too rudimentary for a place where you build some of the biggest ship of the time (think venetii).

Edited July 9, 2012 by AbdelMuhamar

[AbdelMuhamar]

So, any other suggestions from the others?

[eduh]

PEOPLE!

If you want some video game celtic art look upon the game 'Celtic Kings'. I would post the art archives here but that game is not in my computer right now. Oh and it is not 3D it's 2D but really nice to see seriously

Some pics:

http://megagames.com/trainers/celtic-kings-rage-war

http://www.bestdownload.com/view.php?detail=673

http://www.armchairgeneral.com/retro-review-celtic-kings-rage-of-war.htm

http://www.ign.com/images/games/celtic-kings-rage-of-war-pc-482679/4fa6c9f2cdc388ed13eabc1a

http://www.gamespot.com/celtic-kings-rage-of-war/images/

Edited July 12, 2012 by eduh

[historic_bruno]

I think we should animate the rotary mill special building.

So, any other suggestions from the others?

Sure, references for any of the above

It's one thing to assert that Celts had more sophisticated architecture, do you have any reference images or literature? For my part I can't disagree that our Celtic buildings look quite primitive, far more so than other civs, but all the game's art is an approximation emphasizing the most well-known aspects of a civilization over a period of time, not necessarily cherry-picking from the wealthiest classes. Nor should it be assumed that every building is accurate scale for a large city.

PEOPLE!

If you want some video game celtic art look upon the game 'Celtic Kings'. I would post the art archives here but that game is not in my computer right now. Oh and it is not 3D it's 2D but really nice to see seriously

Some pics:

http://megagames.com/trainers/celtic-kings-rage-war

http://www.bestdownload.com/view.php?detail=673

http://www.armchairgeneral.com/retro-review-celtic-kings-rage-of-war.htm

http://www.ign.com/images/games/celtic-kings-rage-of-war-pc-482679/4fa6c9f2cdc388ed13eabc1a

http://www.gamespot.com/celtic-kings-rage-of-war/images/

How would that be a change? If anything those buildings look even more primitive than ours, perhaps more detailed in some ways, but I wouldn't say they move us in the more "refined" direction that AbdelMuhamar is suggesting.

[AbdelMuhamar]

It's one thing to assert that Celts had more sophisticated architecture, do you have any reference images or literature? For my part I can't disagree that our Celtic buildings look quite primitive, far more so than other civs, but all the game's art is an approximation emphasizing the most well-known aspects of a civilization over a period of time, not necessarily cherry-picking from the wealthiest classes. Nor should it be assumed that every building is accurate scale for a large city.

I have those reference and images. For now i could only found a few pics on the internet, as the subject is not as popular today as it was before. But I have many books and pictures at my home that I could scan :

here is a rough depiction of bibactre, made by archeologists : http://imageshack.us...analdebibr.jpg/

At first I thought it was a medieval town, due to the sizes of the houses and their massive courts.

Here is link website that someone send me : it's a gallician town (north spain and celts).

http://marisoccidua....cribrao-de-las/

You can see by the ruins that most of the foundations and wall were made of stones. The density of the ruins show also that the town was very urbanized, as much as a roman town I would say.

The last pic show the massive proportions of the town. And this wasn't even a big town for the time.

another pic of the walls : http://en.wikipedia....rao_de_Las.jpg. You can see that they are well organized, the edges and shapes are perfect, it's everything but chaotic, proportions seems also big when you look at the extensive network.

I could take the time to find more pics, I will do it later.

Overall you can even use common sense : why would a civilization smith things as fine like this : http://www.heritaged.../BATTERSEA1.jpg or like this http://www.historyfo...gaulstorque.jpg, http://en.wikipedia....rade_helmet.jpg, http://en.wikipedia....rigitteCelt.jpg in their every day life then live in things like these : http://sciondevelopm...ngs/houses.jpg. Why would vikings who build these : http://0.tqn.com/d/a...novgorod-at.gif, have less primitive infrastructures than the celts.

Your ''most well-known aspects of a civilization'' are more a pack popular beliefs and cliche depictions in the case of the celts ( I don't want to sound harsh, and don't take it ''harshly'', i'm not trying to be mean or something ). And when I see the celts buildings I can't help but think of asterix's village.

*********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************

The truth is : The design of the celts buildings is based on their rural models, you depicted the rural celts building of that time.

At the same time, you gave the other civilization the urban models. Which means you depicted the carthaginians urban buildings for example.

So when you designed the buildings you used countryside celtic buildings as an inspiration. But you used cities buildings as an inspiration for the other factions.

This is what I find unfair.

I am not sure if what i wrote make sense, so I will resume it one more time :

-in 0ad a celtic town is based on how a celtic VILLAGE looked back then.

-a roman town is based on how a roman CITY looked back then.

(i put it in red because i think it really summarize my point)

**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************

Edited July 13, 2012 by AbdelMuhamar

[zoot]

I, for one, appreciate your enthusiasm

This paragraph in your post seems to be missing the links it refers to:

Here is link website that someone send me : it's a gallician town (north spain and celts). You can see by the ruins that most of the foundations and wall were made of stones. The density of the ruins show also that the town was very urbanized, as much as a roman town I would say.

The last pic show the massive proportions of the town. And this wasn't even a big town for the time.

[AbdelMuhamar]

oops sorry, I edited. Thanks

[Loki1950]

The second link does not get you to the image but putting San Cribrao de Las to goggle gets you to it as well as a few other images and youtube vids.

Enjoy the Choice

Edited July 13, 2012 by Loki1950