Celtic Buildings

[AbdelMuhamar]

Hi there. I'm new here. I discovered this mods a few hours ago and quickly read everything on the website about it. I'm totally enthusiast about it.

I just started playing a few hours ago and I had an overview of every civilization of the game, and I found most of them to look pretty much accurate and accurate.

But something caught my mind : The celtic buildings look overly primitive and rudimentary, especially compared to the other civilization. I mean if when you look the others civilization building all their building looks strong, complex, refined with arts (especially the roman and the greeks) while the Celts one looks like primitive and overly simple houses. It's especially striking with their houses : they just looks like hovels.

Not all their building however looks like that : their military structures actually looks accurate and rather advanced. So it's only about their ''civil'' buildings (town center, houses...)

The celts were a civilized people in their own rights. They had been established in some regions since centuries (by the time of the game) and their civilization was thriving in most part of their ''confederation'' . So they did build refined structures that had nothing (or not too much) to envy to the romans,Carthaginians,persians,greek ones. The only problem we got is the lack of documentation on how they looked since they didn't wanted to write anything, and most of the structures were destroyed or transformed in more roman-like structures (Gallo roman civilization for example) in the course of five centuries.

But it's obvious that any thriving and advanced civilization like them builded complex infrastructure, with as much art and refinement than the other civilization of the game. Even caesar written about how solid and complex the gallic bridges were and how developed their road system was. He even stated that he would have never be able to march so quickly into gauls without the impeccable roads that spanned all over Gaul.

I mean right now, their houses looks worse than the cabin I builded with my brother (both of us are in our twenties) last summer. And we were just tow, had no knowledge whatsoever about buildings and we had only 4 months, while a typical celt at that time was more handy than us, and could devote much more time to build a house ( and the house could pass and be improved from generations to generations). Just looks at some of the structures the vikings had build in the early middle ages : they certainly were not more technologically advanced than the celts in 0 ad, yet their buildings looks much more developed (and are embellished with sculptures,columns, paintings, low relief) than the celtic buildings in 0ad.

So in the end, I think some, not all, of the buildings models should be changed or improved. The point is to give them that refined look that any civilization of that caliber should have.

I found this project simply amazing, and i'm ready to contribute to it, especially the celts and the carthaginians (being a tunisian myself i have a good knowledge of this faction).

So if you need help i could give you a hand in modeling (i have some experience with milkshape but i can rapidly adapt to watever tools you use) or if you need an historian ( I just completed my third year in history studies). I would be especially glad to help you with the history stuff, but i find modeling fun occasionally. I could also help on the textures side but i'm not a good photoshoper.

EDIT : after thinking about it for a while, I can precisely say what is wrong with the buildings :

The truth is : The design of the celts buildings is based on their rural models, you depicted the rural celts building of that time.

At the same time, you gave the other civilization the urban models. Which means you depicted the carthaginians urban buildings for example.

So when you designed the buildings you used countryside celtic buildings as an inspiration. But you used cities buildings as an inspiration for the other factions.

This is what I find unfair.

I am not sure if what i wrote make sense, so I will resume it one more time :

-in 0ad a celtic town is based on how a celtic VILLAGE looked back then.

-a roman town is based on how a roman CITY looked back then.

(i put it in red because i think it really summarize my point)

Edited July 13, 2012 by AbdelMuhamar

[AbdelMuhamar]

it seems it's not in priority currently, while the greek buildings are...

I fear that this illogical depiction of some buildings ( not all of them the forts and military building are good) won't get noticed since most people still has this stereotypical view of northern european in antiquity as less civilized than the southern one (romans, greeks), which is false. Most celtic buildings in this game really lack this NEAT feeling that a civilized faction should have (perfect shapes, artwork, paintings : the flamboyant look).

Edited July 2, 2012 by AbdelMuhamar

[Pureon]

Welcome to the forums AbdelMuhamar

It's true that updating the Celt buildings is lower on our priorities list, however if you'd like to sketch out some visuals for refined Celt houses (or other buildings), please do. The more inspiration we get, the more likely we, or someone in the community, will work on new models. Assume we will be using the same textures.

I'm not sure how compatible Milkshape is with 0 A.D., but you could test it out or learn Blender (which is what most of us use). Here's a quick tutorial I wrote recently: trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/Basic3DImplementation

Would you also be interested in providing some visuals to help us update the Carthaginian houses? It's something I should have done when I updated their buildings in 2011. I'm not promising it'll happen tomorrow, but it'll be a good incentive for future work

[AbdelMuhamar]

Thanks

I'm checking your tutorial right now and I will try to play a bit with Blender tomorow.

I'm definitively interested in providing visuals for the carthaginian houses, this week end I have some times on my end so I should find some stuff.

Too bad the celtic buildings are on low priority, I will try to bring higher by making some sketch. I definitively they deserve much more than their current buildings

[AbdelMuhamar]

Also I just checked again, most of their roof in the cities were not made with straw but with wood. It was to prevent fast fire propagation. SO some roof should be remade in the game to reflect this.

[Pureon]

Also I just checked again, most of their roof in the cities were not made with straw but with wood. It was to prevent fast fire propagation. SO some roof should be remade in the game to reflect this.

Many references state that Celt buildings had thatched straw roofs, and therefore we'll stick with thatched roofs for consistency. I didn't model the Celt buildings in 0 A.D., but I really like the overall look - and I'm English so that's coming from a local

[AbdelMuhamar]

I'm not sure, I visited myself a lot of reconstitution of villages in france mainly, since i'm studying there, and the nobles houses had roofs made of wood. Also, the archeologist there stated that straw roof were not used in cities because of the concentration of houses there : fire would spread too quickly. Also rich people, who inhabited mostly cities, prefered (for comfort reason) to have wooden roofs.

Overall I find the color and texture used good, but the buildings looks ridiculously rudimentary compared to the other civs buildings, even the iberian. They don't have the grandeur of the other civs buildings and don't look very neat with stuff lying around, the finish not completed (look at their walls, the planks are chaotically disposed). So i feel it's kind of unfair, and they really look like the generic barbarian of the game.

Also i noticed some head lying around on some building. Really? Currently we don't know a lot about the head cult, and it was probably a sect with a limited number of warrior participating in the collections of head. It's quite logical that most of the civil population would have been disgusted by head lying around. Also, even if it was widespread to the point were it would affect public place, it wouldn't be enemies head but their skulls that would be hanged : a head would decay, producing an unbearable stench and cause hygiene problem. I cannot believe that one of the culture that invented soap would let rotting head hanging around in public spaces.I never heard of any culture that lived around rotting corpses, even the more primitive.

Edited July 2, 2012 by AbdelMuhamar

[Mythos_Ruler]

Perhaps the Britons can retain the older models that look more "primitive" (the round huts, etc.), while the Gauls can have some updated buildings to look more "civilized" (longhouses for houses instead of the round huts, etc.).

[AbdelMuhamar]

indeed. this would make more sense

Anyway i've been playing around with blender. That's an amazing tool considering the fact it cost nothing. A wise choice to develop the game with it.

I will try to model a celtic house this week, are there any tutorial on how to use the game resources (such as the pillars, buildings... you modeled ), open them in blender and use them to make a new building for example?

[Pureon]

Perhaps the Britons can retain the older models that look more "primitive" (the round huts, etc.), while the Gauls can have some updated buildings to look more "civilized" (longhouses for houses instead of the round huts, etc.).

So we're saying the Britons were more primitive than the Gauls? No sure about that.

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

Another thought is that the older buildings could be kept for the village phase. When you advance to the town phase/city phase, the models would change to a slightly more civilized set.

[AbdelMuhamar]

So we're saying the Britons were more primitive than the Gauls? No sure about that.

Both of them had the exact same culture and considered themselves the same people. So they were not more primitive then the gauls. BUT I believe that the gauls had more wealth because they were at the cross of many trade routes and their land had far more natural riches. This is why it is said that Gaul was where the celtic civilization was the most thriving. BUT I think both Gauls AND Britons don't deserve the huts, and the relative primitivity of their civic center, markets... design.

They definitively should look more complex and neater : no stuff lying around, BIGGER PROPORTIONS, no head hanging around, art, sculptures, overall refinement.

Another thought is that the older buildings could be kept for the village phase. When you advance to the town phase/city phase, the models would change to a slightly more civilized set.

This would work for the huts, but then again the other buildings would stay the same while they should be improved too like i said above.

I think the military structures are good, but the civil ones should be improved.

Edited July 3, 2012 by AbdelMuhamar

[AbdelMuhamar]

Also i noticed some head lying around on some building. Really? Currently we don't know a lot about the head cult, and it was probably a sect with a limited number of warrior participating in the collections of head. It's quite logical that most of the civil population would have been disgusted by head lying around. Also, even if it was widespread to the point were it would affect public place, it wouldn't be enemies head but their skulls that would be hanged : a head would decay, producing an unbearable stench and cause hygiene problem. I cannot believe that one of the culture that invented soap would let rotting head hanging around in public spaces.I never heard of any culture that lived around rotting corpses, even the more primitive.

This would be a quick correction to make. not remodelling. At least, if you really want to put head, put skulls. Even animals avoid living near rotting carcasses. Don't insult the intelligence of human being

[oddchild]

Perhaps the Britons can retain the older models that look more "primitive" (the round huts, etc.), while the Gauls can have some updated buildings to look more "civilized" (longhouses for houses instead of the round huts, etc.).

Will the Britons get "longbows"?

[AbdelMuhamar]

the brintons don't use Long Bow in ancient times.

But they used war chariots, which is even more awesome

[Mythos_Ruler]

It's called "artistic license" so folks should not be too offended. At least the head thing is based on something real, instead of turning Persian Immortals into goblins ('300').

[AbdelMuhamar]

It's called "artistic license" so folks should not be too offended. At least the head thing is based on something real, instead of turning Persian Immortals into goblins ('300').

Well the fact is that the head cult is not really based on something real. This cult is still a mystery as of today, and it probably wasn't widespread to the whole civilization. It was probably a cult limited to a small group of warrior in each regions. Whatever culture you have, anyone would be disgusted by a rotting human corpse hanging around their streets, that's just logical. And rotting corpse is one of the biggest threat to hygiene in this world.

In conclusion, there shouldn't be head hanging on the Gauls buildings, and if there is those should be skulls, not rotting head. NO CIVLIZATION EVER LET ROTTING CORPSES HANGING IN THEIR CITIES. I can't stress that enough it's the most basic common sense.

[Mythos_Ruler]

Well the fact is that the head cult is not really based on something real. This cult is still a mystery as of today, and it probably wasn't widespread to the whole civilization. It was probably a cult limited to a small group of warrior in each regions. Whatever culture you have, anyone would be disgusted by a rotting human corpse hanging around their streets, that's just logical. And rotting corpse is one of the biggest threat to hygiene in this world.

In conclusion, there shouldn't be head hanging on the Gauls buildings, and if there is those should be skulls, not rotting head. NO CIVLIZATION EVER LET ROTTING CORPSES HANGING IN THEIR CITIES. I can't stress that enough it's the most basic common sense.

No culture ever existed within a video game either! zomg!

But anyway, point taken.

[AbdelMuhamar]

hehe

So maybe this should be in the task list for the next update? get rid of those dirty heads or replace them by skulls ?

[Mythos_Ruler]

hehe

So maybe this should be in the task list for the next update? get rid of those dirty heads or replace them by skulls ?

Skulls would actually be kind of cooler.

[AbdelMuhamar]

Indeed. Anyway, I recommend to update the task list with the improvement of some celts buildings : The houses, the civic center, the market... and a little bit of the temple. THe military fortress and buildings are pretty good, so no need to change them, they look as mighty as they should. But it,s time to update civics buildings

[Mythos_Ruler]

"Update the buildings, guise...lol..." doesn't really help the team out. Do you have any references for the modelers? I'm not sure what's bad with the Market and Civ Centres.

[feneur]

(Slightly off-topic as I'm sure your points are very valid about the Celtic buildings in general, but I would say that you are wrong about people not having rotting corpses/heads around. Depends on what you mean by around of course, having them in their houses hardly was common. But at least during the medieval/later periods it was fairly common to be far more liberal with having dead bodies around than we would think today. Granted, it was mostly criminals displayed in public and I guess in most cases not necessarily next to people's houses, but that's not the same thing as to say it didn't happen at all. )

[AbdelMuhamar]

(Slightly off-topic as I'm sure your points are very valid about the Celtic buildings in general, but I would say that you are wrong about people not having rotting corpses/heads around. Depends on what you mean by around of course, having them in their houses hardly was common. But at least during the medieval/later periods it was fairly common to be far more liberal with having dead bodies around than we would think today. Granted, it was mostly criminals displayed in public and I guess in most cases not necessarily next to people's houses, but that's not the same thing as to say it didn't happen at all. )

Yeah in a way there was rotting corpses hanging around, but often far from the daily routines of the population, they were more outside the cities to discourage intruders or attacker and even far away it would really disgust the people who were passing next to it : they only kept them hanging around to send a strong message to the enemies. So if head were collected for some kind of esthetic or religious purpose, they would probably have been ridden of any flesh, because there is no point of disgusting oneself to that extend just for some superstition.

"Update the buildings, guise...lol..." doesn't really help the team out. Do you have any references for the modelers? I'm not sure what's bad with the Market and Civ Centres.

I'll be working on it this week-end . But yeah I understand that it doesn't help. Maybe to correct words should be ''begin some research to update the Celts buildings'', but I think that it would be cool to establish it in the priorities. It would be unfair if the greeks are about to have their already good looking building updated, and the Celts would have to get stick with village style buildings.

[historic_bruno]

I've also felt the Celtic buildings are somewhat disappointing compared to the others. Still, there's enough on the art department's plate without redoing another set of buildings