IDEAAAA

[AuroN2]

OOOOR Cohort. Or Warband. Or.. Whatever.

Im hoping That Since you are (maybe?) Doing Formations like The Phalanx (both) Or Testudo (0ad2), if it isn't happening ignore the rest of this post

Since There (might) be Formations, i was hoping that Squads, Cohorts, warbands, whatever, Could be implemented. They could easily be controlled as a group by selecting a flag that ops up if you form a band/cohort/W/e So you can select that group respectively, and still be able to Split them off into individual units to fight. If you don't got no idea what i mean by cohort, Look at Total war (or RTW) 'Fer Example, when you train a unit, it's say, Got 180 persons in it, and they fight as a compact group Or if your a barbarian or eastern culture, A bunch. This would be really cool For people who, like me, like to play as close to be historicaly acurate as possible, because it makes me gazzle And gurble on the insides. and would probably make implementing new formations Muchos Easius!

Whatchutink?

Or you already plan to do this?

[Mythos_Ruler]

I was thinking once you form a control group, then that group stays and fights in formation. Click one and you select them all, like Rome:Total War or Battle for Middle Earth II. Not only do you get the ease of control (control tons of units with just a few clicks) and formation bonuses, but you get the benefit that no single soldier (specifically heroes) within the formation can be singled out by the enemy for focus fire.

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

All of that sounds great. So with that said, how large will the armies normally be?

[AuroN2]

Well that was a better reception than what i was expecting, given my last idea got my head blown off XD.

At least this time you get the general idea but i was hoping that it could be more complicated than just a "group" of soldiers

Since the romans fought as one diciplined body of troops and not individuals, For example. But yeah, they could be like in RTW but make it a bit more complicated than that, so for example, You click on one Cohortes Flag (which will be better to hang above the body of troops) You can do certain functions, like Taunt, Warcry (for barbies?) Reinforce (to a unit of same unit type that is under-strength) Etc etc. See where im leading? Muchos better than RTW. Which was my last favorite Tw game D:

Maybe MTW2 if more Ancient wars' Mods come out but... Thats anover story.

Muchachos, Cheers.

OH OH

PS. I need to come up with more interesting topic headings than "IIIIDEAAA", or was that because i had this awesome idea in my head and i splouted a fifth of it and forgot the rest? XD

Edited September 7, 2011 by AuroN2

[Mythos_Ruler]

It would be more like Rome:Total War (organized formations) than Battle for Middle Earth II, where there are only groups, not formations.

[AuroN2]

Never played Bfme2 and never suggested i did so i have no idea what you mean

[Android_]

While I appreciate the creativity going into this idea, I do have some concerns that make me strongly oppose the notion of 'squad combat'. In my opinion, NOT having squad combat was one of the most remarkable features of the Age series and one thing that greatly contributed to the Age feeling.

Not having squad combat is an advantage because what this feature mainly does is to take away control from the player: You lose the ability to command your units individually. It seems that in your indeas here it would even make you lose the idea to address (/attack) your enemy's units individually. I think all that would greatly take away from the experience, which is why in games that do have squad combat one always has the impression that the feature was implement to increase computing performance.

At the same time, you get nothing out of it. Everything that 'combat squads' can do can also be done by groups of individual units. That's what box-selecting and control groups are for. There is nothing that would keep us from making groups of individual units use advanced formations, for example. And they'd always have the advantage to let individuals be commanded somewhere else, targeted by the enemy, or singled out otherwise.

In short: 'Squad combat' = less of the Age feeling, less control, and nothing that can't be done without

[Mythos_Ruler]

0 A.D. =/= Age of Empires clone. AOE inspires 0 A.D., but we are not recreating it. Just wanted to mention that.

[Android_]

Sure. It's obvious that we can learn a lot from it though. And there's better stuff around to distinguish 0ad from the Age series right? Think territories, citizen soldiers, ship combat (/propping)...

[Pureon]

While I appreciate the creativity going into this idea, I do have some concerns that make me strongly oppose the notion of 'squad combat'. In my opinion, NOT having squad combat was one of the most remarkable features of the Age series and one thing that greatly contributed to the Age feeling.

Not having squad combat is an advantage because what this feature mainly does is to take away control from the player: You lose the ability to command your units individually. It seems that in your indeas here it would even make you lose the idea to address (/attack) your enemy's units individually. I think all that would greatly take away from the experience, which is why in games that do have squad combat one always has the impression that the feature was implement to increase computing performance.

At the same time, you get nothing out of it. Everything that 'combat squads' can do can also be done by groups of individual units. That's what box-selecting and control groups are for. There is nothing that would keep us from making groups of individual units use advanced formations, for example. And they'd always have the advantage to let individuals be commanded somewhere else, targeted by the enemy, or singled out otherwise.

In short: 'Squad combat' = less of the Age feeling, less control, and nothing that can't be done without

I'd have to agree with this myself. Just saying.

[Mythos_Ruler]

I'd have to agree with this myself. Just saying.

There has to be a benefit to formations, or else there is no reason to include them. For the benefits to make sense, those units in a formation have to act coherently or the illusion is broken.

[Pureon]

There has to be a benefit to formations, or else there is no reason to include them. For the benefits to make sense, those units in a formation have to act coherently or the illusion is broken.

True, I just don't think we should sacrifice AOE style control groups for formations. Ideally you'd want a way of making a control group without the units instantly turning into a formation (where selecting any unit selects the entire group). I'm not against squad combat for formations, definitely not, I agree it's the best way for it to work.

[Android_]

There has to be a benefit to formations, or else there is no reason to include them. For the benefits to make sense, those units in a formation have to act coherently or the illusion is broken.

This is not true in my opinion. Just have a look at the rudimentary formations that 0AD has now: It's individual units that perform collective action when selected/commanded together. There is no theoretical reason why this wouldn't work with more advanced formations as well. Units could move even closer, take position in predefined rows, take a special stance, get a special bonus or act in any other special way. I'm not a programmer but in theory the fact that there are many selection circles instead of one big one for a whole squad doesn't make collective actions impossible. Your 'squad' is nothing more than cemented box-selecting or control groups.

I'm just saying that access to individual units and precise control are precious features that I wouldn't want to miss. Power to the players!

Edited September 11, 2011 by Android GRRR

[Mythos_Ruler]

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Android_]

Haha okay. Anyway this is an interesting point that will certainly come up again when you will look into advanced formations.

[Mythos_Ruler]

I certainly agree that at least for 0 A.D. Part 1 that individual soldiers should be individual and separate entities from their comrades. But in battle, and if the player wants it to be so (and there will be benefits of doing so, so they should), then soldiers should act as part of a coherent unit when placed into a formation.

[AuroN2]

Sir i don't think you understand, The idea i had gives more Innovation, More Uniqueness to the game. Do we really want a AoE clone? I would prefer a Half Total War Half Classical RTS much more than just a classical RTS. If all you want is tiny little unique features for 0ad these guys might aswell just make a mod of an already existing game, instead of making one from scratch. There's no real point in making something from scratch unless you want to make something unique or something good (OOOR in the rare occasion both).... Or Make money. And since this is free, it's most likely going to have some big bang features that make an excellent game over little Funky ones that make a Cool looking one. And Adv Formations is a big Bang Feature. That's what made The Total War series a big success

Buuut you misunderstand, The way i see it, you thinking of Training one whole unit of troops.

HEELLL no. This ain't Rome total war! This is 0ad!

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

Well, the way I look at this is that the engine is designed to be flexible for modification. So if I really wanted this to be the super deluxe logistics game where everything is so complicated that it is almost frightening at the thought of all the stress you take while playing it, you could make 0 A.D. into that. Regardless, I don't see much of a point in training massive groups of units. The way I always thought it should be done is merely having male and female citizens be born in a way not much under your control. During war, if necessary, you may draft X number of men into various kinds platoons of soldiers dependent on the armor and weapons you have manufactured in your armories. Once this is done, you commision commanding officers and then march them out.

[JuliusColtranePille]

I certainly agree that at least for 0 A.D. Part 1 that individual soldiers should be individual and separate entities from their comrades. But in battle, and if the player wants it to be so (and there will be benefits of doing so, so they should), then soldiers should act as part of a coherent unit when placed into a formation.

yes. i really would love to see, that formations (such as the macedonian-phalanx for example) and all the units in it keep their formation even when they're attacked from elsewhere - as it was in the age-of-empires-games. i think this was due to the "violent"-stance. but there should be definitely advantages if the phalanx is well disciplined and tries to keep together as long as the losses aren't to heavy.

thus this would add the tactical need for the guy who fights with the phalanx to keep them and on the other hand the necessity for the opponent (maybe with cavalry) to break them. with an included bonus-system this would greatly enhance the gameplay.

and, somehow i undoubtedly know that you guys have just that in mind (which is great)

this will be great