historic_bruno Posted August 11, 2011 Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 Suppose I have a ship loaded with units, but the ship is attacked and sunk. Currently, I believe all units on board will be miraculously left on the floor of the sea, unharmed. I'm trying to fix ungarrisoning as part of #893. Garrisoning and transporting are all jumbled together, which I don't like, but maybe that's sufficient for now.The question is what should happen if a ship is sunk? Perhaps units who are near to land could be "shipwrecked" so they survive, but if it's too far away they die (say, more than 4 tiles which is the current max spawn radius). Or we could be pessimistic and assume they all die. Anyway, I think we'll need some kind of flag in the template like <GarrisonShip/> so this behavior is forced for ships and not buildings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythos_Ruler Posted August 11, 2011 Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 Right, ship garrisoning will need it's own tags and systems. For simplicity and max drama, I'd say all garrisoned units die. This was how it was in AOE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Android_ Posted August 11, 2011 Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 (edited) For simplicity and max drama, I'd say all garrisoned units die.haha.another suggestion would be to have them struggle to survive... by attaching their flail animation (if they have any?) to the water surface and make them able to swim around until they drown... if they don't reach land in time. for less animation work, you could of course use a single flail/swim animation for all soldiers (like it's done with citizen soldiers when they gather resources).that was a feature of Rise & Fall and it was very cool. i think the game can be downloaded for free by now.it would also be a good opportunity to distinguish 0AD a bit from the Age series.edit: here's a video of that (also watch the nice ram attack in the next scene. Rise and Fall definitely had some nice features, i suggest you try it some time... it will surely be a source of inspiration). Edited August 11, 2011 by Android GRRR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythos_Ruler Posted August 11, 2011 Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 Yep, I installed Rise&Fall about a year ago on my old rig. It was nigh unplayable due to lack of optimization and very very buggy. One can tell it was an unfinished work. Midway should have pushed the release back by about a year when SSSI folded, but they didn't, and just forged ahead with an unfinished product. There's a reason it's free now. Anyway, yeah, the game had/has a lot of great ideas, just frustratingly executed. The ramming is satisfying, but difficult to do. It's especially satisfying to slaughter the flailing enemy crew as they try to swim ashore. This probably happened a lot in real-life naval battles too, especially after the battle had been decided. Problem is, once the "crew" reaches the shore, what do you do with them? Half the time they are on a separate island or something and not very useful. I liked the ship animations and the rowing and the ramming and stuff like that, they were just unwieldy. Then there were the massive battles. With that many units (1000+), a battalion system like in Battle for Middle Earth II or Rome:Total War would have been appreciated. Hopefully we can put some nice detail in 0 A.D.'s ship movement and attacks and unit formations, but make them easier to use. Ships were so big and their usage so detailed that it was difficult to use more than a handful of ships. I'd rather have large exciting naval battles than putz around with 3 ships. The worst part about Rise&Fall is its anemic base-building. The building artwork is ridiculous and the economic aspect is lacking. No trading. No houses or any real city building at all. The walls are interesting, but wayyyyy too huge. It's almost like the dev studio folded and never beta tested the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMST Posted August 11, 2011 Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 The worst part about Rise&Fall is its anemic base-building. The building artwork is ridiculous and the economic aspect is lacking. No trading. No houses or any real city building at all. The walls are interesting, but wayyyyy too huge. It's almost like the dev studio folded and never beta tested the game. The dev studio went bancrupt, and the publisher finished the game. The developers were Stainless Steel Studios, who produced Empire Earth and Empires: Dawn of the Modern World, two very enjoyable RTS games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythos_Ruler Posted August 11, 2011 Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 The dev studio went bancrupt, and the publisher finished the game. The developers were Stainless Steel Studios, who produced Empire Earth and Empires: Dawn of the Modern World, two very enjoyable RTS games.I know. I mentioned SSSI in my first paragraph. The winky should have insinuated that as well. And "the publisher (Midway) finished the game" is dubious. Didn't feel very finished to me. Likely they sutured up any gaping holes with a ball of yarn and shoved it out the door ASAP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMST Posted August 11, 2011 Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 I know. I mentioned SSSI in my first paragraph. The winky should have insinuated that as well. And "the publisher (Midway) finished the game" is dubious. Didn't feel very finished to me. Likely they sutured up any gaping holes with a ball of yarn and shoved it out the door ASAP.Argh, I should start to read posts more carefully. Yeah, I feel pretty much the same way about R&F as you do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Android_ Posted August 11, 2011 Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 (edited) The worst part about Rise&Fall is its anemic base-building. The building artwork is ridiculous and the economic aspect is lacking. No trading. No houses or any real city building at all. The walls are interesting, but wayyyyy too huge.yeah. i'd simply say that there were a lot of great features and ideas in R&F, but the standard RTS experience didn't quite cut it.i'd definitely go ahead and recycle some of their creativity though. as i said, the flailing/swimming seamen would be easy to implement i guess. just use one flail/swim animation for all of them to reduce the effort and make them passable for ships (although that would be quite macabre haha) so that ships don't get stuck like in R&F if i remember correctly.i don't see a problem with those soldiers washed away on distant shores that you mentioned. the player is free to decide to either delete them, pick them up or forget about them... let's be honest: although we're talking about tragic fates here , isn't it just great fun to take out a shattered ship's remaining crew or, on the other hand, to rescue your stranded robinson crusoes?!edit: i'm having another great idea haha... make them passable for ships and give those ships a very narrowly defined area damage against them so that ships cannot only pass them, but roll over them i think all of this would be easy to implement and great fun so somebody file a ticket please, i don't know how to do it yet Edited August 11, 2011 by Android GRRR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOXAS1 Posted August 11, 2011 Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 (edited) yeah. i'd simply say that there were a lot of great features and ideas in R&F, but the standard RTS experience didn't quite cut it.i'd definitely go ahead and recycle some of their creativity though. as i said, the flailing/swimming seamen would be easy to implement i guess. just use one flail/swim animation for all of them to reduce the effort and make them passable for ships (although that would be quite macabre haha) so that ships don't get stuck like in R&F if i remember correctly.i don't see a problem with those soldiers washed away on distant shores that you mentioned. the player is free to decide to either delete them, pick them up or forget about them... let's be honest: although we're talking about tragic fates here , isn't it just great fun to take out a shattered ship's remaining crew or, on the other hand, to rescue your stranded robinson crusoes?!edit: i'm having another great idea haha... make them passable for ships and give those ships a very narrowly defined area damage against them so that ships cannot only pass them, but roll over them i think all of this would be easy to implement and great fun so somebody file a ticket please, i don't know how to do it yet Maybe if you rescue them you get xp? Or you could use the" Crusoes" to build an island outpost or base Edited August 11, 2011 by NOXAS1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Android_ Posted August 11, 2011 Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 (edited) Maybe if you rescue them you get xp? Or you could use the" Crusoes" to build an island outpost or basei'd say let's not make it too complicated and leave the choice to the player... building a crusoe community would certainly be an option Edited August 11, 2011 by Android GRRR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOXAS1 Posted August 11, 2011 Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 i'd say let's not make it too complicated and leave the choice to the player... building a crusoe community would certainly be an option good point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Almin Posted August 13, 2011 Report Share Posted August 13, 2011 Why do you not do it like in AoE 2 -The Age of Kings and the Conqueros Expansion? If a building is nearly destroyed, all the units, military units as well as normal settlers, are leaving the building automatically and one cannot place them in the building again, until it is repaired a little bit and has a minimum number of health points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
historic_bruno Posted August 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2011 Why do you not do it like in AoE 2 -The Age of Kings and the Conqueros Expansion? If a building is nearly destroyed, all the units, military units as well as normal settlers, are leaving the building automatically and one cannot place them in the building again, until it is repaired a little bit and has a minimum number of health points.We already do this for buildings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
historic_bruno Posted August 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2011 Kinda random question, but could we have a special cursor for ship garrisoning? (I'm working on the logic for this atm) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Almin Posted August 15, 2011 Report Share Posted August 15, 2011 We already do this for buildings Sorry, I was a little bit confused. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
historic_bruno Posted August 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2011 Anyone tried ship garrisoning since r10020? Also what are people's opinions on one-click ship garrisoning? Personally I think it makes sense because what better action would a unit have for their own ships? The only weirdness is the bounding-box-as-selection issue, but that affects other parts of the game too. It's a simple change btw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythos_Ruler Posted August 18, 2011 Report Share Posted August 18, 2011 Unloading units onto the shore works perfectly! Nice. It actually makes island maps playable! Now the problem is getting the ship to meet the units at the shoreline when you order the units to garrison aboard. One step at a time I guess! Not sure if I'd prefer one-click garrisoning or one-click repairing. Right now we have one-click repairing for buildings, so I think it should be consistent all the way around, one way or the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Android_ Posted August 18, 2011 Report Share Posted August 18, 2011 (edited) wow sounds great bruno! i'm looking forward to alpha 7. btw i'd go with one-click-repairing as well, it seems to be the default right-click action. in any future options menu you could include a one-click-garrison option for those who prefer it the other way round (i believe the age series does the same).edit: then again, not all units can actually repair things, so for those who can't one-click-garrisoning makes sense right Edited August 18, 2011 by Android GRRR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythos_Ruler Posted August 18, 2011 Report Share Posted August 18, 2011 wow sounds great bruno! i'm looking forward to alpha 7. btw i'd go with one-click-repairing as well, it seems to be the default right-click action. in any future options menu you could include a one-click-garrison option for those who prefer it the other way round (i believe the age series does the same).edit: then again, not all units can actually repair things, so for those who can't one-click-garrisoning makes sense right Just like how not all units construct buildings, the ones that can't repair would go stand guard over those that can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Android_ Posted August 18, 2011 Report Share Posted August 18, 2011 (edited) hmmm i see but bruno does have a point when he says the main right-click action you want to have for transports would be garrisoning. so you could make that happen for non-repairing units (and for non-damaged ships!) for playability's sake, although it may not 100% conform with the pattern you have for buildings. edit: i've changed my mind... that way tasking a mixed group on a damaged ship would result in weird things, so you should decide on either right-click repairing or garrisoning... i say repairing as it's consistent with building handling, as michael pointed out.on a related note: there's another little thing that could indeed be 'standardized' though... when manually clicking the garrison button you have to left-click a building to garrison units (right-click to cancel garrisoning), whereas when holding Ctrl you have to right-click a building to garrison a unit. i found this confusing at times. suggestion: when holding Ctrl allow both left and right-clicks to garrison because you can always release the Ctrl key to cancel garrisoning.even better suggestion: leave Ctrl as it is, make manual garrisoning work with right-clicks instead of left-clicks (left-click to cancel the action). do the same for repair buttons etc. This way commands (command buttons or commands in the field) would always be issued via right-clicks, which i'd find the most consistent solution.phew, so many right and left-clicks here. i hope you get my point Edited August 18, 2011 by Android GRRR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
historic_bruno Posted August 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2011 phew, so many right and left-clicks here. i hope you get my point Yeah, that's annoyed me for a while. I'm always left clicking when I should be right clicking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feneur Posted August 18, 2011 Report Share Posted August 18, 2011 The right-click for short-cut or direct action and left click for "button activated actions" is pretty standard in most games I've played. That doesn't mean it's the right way to do things of course though, I'm just throwing that out there As for how we actually should do it There are pros and cons to each way. It might be best to go with consistency for now and then we can evaluate that in testing and change it to whichever works best for actually playing the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Android_ Posted August 19, 2011 Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 It might be best to go with consistency for now and then we can evaluate that in testing and change it to whichever works best for actually playing the game. shouldn't be a big deal to remap the keys for the next alpha right and then we'll see as you said Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorfinn the Shallow Minded Posted August 19, 2011 Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 What about Shift clicking? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Android_ Posted August 19, 2011 Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 shift plus left or right click? it's not about ctrl or shift but about the clicks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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