Civ: Palmyrenes

[Nicolaus_von_Kues]

Infantry equipment.

I had already shared my vision of the Palmyra swordman infantry above.

https://www.twcenter.net/threads/updated-collection-of-palmyrene-and-late-phartian-early-sassanid-armies-pics-and-miniatures.772222/

 

[Nicolaus_von_Kues]

https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/archive/index.php?thread-18515.html

Composition of the armies of the third century.

It would seem that, if III Gallica are representative of other legions, the Roman army in the east remained loyal to Rome after the death of Odenathus. There could well have been defections, but as far as I know there's no evidence for this.

 

Palmyrene cavalry was very heavily armoured, so cataphracts would be a good guess. Otherwise, Zosimus gives Zenobia 'Syrians... Saracens and Armenians' - apparently light cavalry. Palmyra was a great trading centre, and probably made good use of mercenaries - the shifting allegiance of the Saracens and Armenians might reflect this.

 

Aurelian's army of the period was similarly polyglot: 'Mauritanian horse... Tyaneans... Mesopotamians... Syrians... Phoenicians, and... Palestinians' besides the Praetorians and legionary troops drawn from the Danube. (all quotes Zosimus , Historia Nova, Book I)

 

- Nathan

Edited yesterday at 23:09 by Nicolaus_von_Kues

[Nicolaus_von_Kues]

https://www.eliteminiaturesaustralia.com.au/a-miniatures-palmyran-army-3rd-century/?srsltid=AfmBOootOYKRW1X_8_8-2LqMPbaZcWsD7OyOnIvm8ALkbG7Qh2ZLwLTf

 

This is difficult; there aren't many sources on the appearance of archers.

Basically, it's a combination of Eastern archers with a Persian archer and a Syrian auxiliary archer.

Edited 23 hours ago by Nicolaus_von_Kues

[ThePoshBarbarian]

16 hours ago, Nicolaus_von_Kues said:

 

 

Some concepts for Camel riders.

I believe that first image, used as reference for the ai, is carrying javelins? I at least think it's javelins, as the rider seems to be pulling it out of a quiver? It looks like it might be a large/long quiver but I'd need to find the original image to check.

[Nicolaus_von_Kues]

22 minutes ago, ThePoshBarbarian said:

I believe that first image, used as reference for the ai, is carrying javelins? I at least think it's javelins, as the rider seems to be pulling it out of a quiver? It looks like it might be a large/long quiver but I'd need to find the original image to check.

The original uses javelins, but the descriptions mention multiple weapons: swords, spears, javelins, and arrows.

I am using AI to refer to units that have hardly any illustrations.

https://www.historiascripta.org/classical-antiquity/dromedarii-camel-riders-in-the-roman-army/

"Palmyra / Tadmor, Homs governorate, Syria: Palmyra Museum. Caravan camel guarded by men armed with spear and sword".

Edited 7 hours ago by Nicolaus_von_Kues

[Nicolaus_von_Kues]

http://byzantinemilitary.blogspot.com/2024/12/roman-camel-cavalry.html?m=1

My intention was only to show Arab clothing used by some Palmyrene units; it's complicated to show a single look for the troops.

The most outstanding and different units in the Palmyra army that distinguish them from other civs are the camel riders.

"Dromedarii were camel-riding auxiliary forces recruited in the desert provinces of the late Roman Empire in Roman Syria".

"A 1000-strong dromedarius unit, the ala I Ulpia Dromedariorum milliaria, was established by Trajan in Syria. A small number of dromedarii is recorded as part of the Cohors XX Palmyrenorum based in Dura-Europos in Roman Syria".

Edited 7 hours ago by Nicolaus_von_Kues

[Nicolaus_von_Kues]

I'm going to put this label up to be more transparent.

I requested this image based on the previous images. 

 

I'm not happy with how the pants were designed.

The helmets that this unit would use are very specific.

Auxiliary cavalry helmets.

 

Edited 6 hours ago by Nicolaus_von_Kues

[Nicolaus_von_Kues]

@ThePoshBarbarian

This is the image you wanted.

[Nicolaus_von_Kues]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modius_(headdress)

Another item of clothing worn by the units is the modius hat.

I'm not sure if it was only used by priests.

[Thalatta]

1 hour ago, Nicolaus_von_Kues said:

I'm not happy with how the pants were designed.

Pants? Look at those boots, that design looks so modern I'm sure I can go out and buy them in the next hour.

I think one has to be way more careful with AI, not the first dubious thing I've seen around lately.

[Nicolaus_von_Kues]

19 minutes ago, Thalatta said:

Pants? Look at those boots, that design looks so modern I'm sure I can go out and buy them in the next hour.

I think one has to be way more careful with AI, not the first dubious thing I've seen around lately.

There were boots of Persian origin at that time; they don't seem modern to me.

But she is not trained to make Persian boots, very specific Roman helmets, very specific trousers.

 

Mostly, I take an existing drawing and use it to show me a better version. For example, I need to better appreciate the riders.

Edited 4 hours ago by Nicolaus_von_Kues

[Thalatta]

5 minutes ago, Nicolaus_von_Kues said:

There were boots of Persian origin at that time; they don't seem modern to me.

But she is not trained to make Persian boots, very specific Roman helmets, very specific trousers.

Can you show evidence of any ancient boot, Persian or otherwise, looking like that?

[Nicolaus_von_Kues]

15 minutes ago, Thalatta said:

Can you show evidence of any ancient boot, Persian or otherwise, looking like that?

"Looking like that"

I don't think boots that look like a draw exist.

https://www.res-bellica.com/en/shop/calcei-4/

Second, I'm not focusing on footwear.(Right now).

 

@Thalatta you know to draw?

How do I know if this boot is modern or not? I see a bunch of very blurry pixels.

Edited 4 hours ago by Nicolaus_von_Kues

[Thalatta]

1 minute ago, Nicolaus_von_Kues said:

I don't think boots that look like a draw exist.

Which is my point. Your image now is much closer to what we actually know about. Both styles are quite different.

[Nicolaus_von_Kues]

14 minutes ago, Thalatta said:

Which is my point. Your image now is much closer to what we actually know about. Both styles are quite different.

What is modern to you?

 

Fantasy is more probably and best choice of words.

You're missing something very important; I'm not the one who's going to design the final textures.

You're new here... I'm not, maybe my username is.

The process that our units go through is very detailed.

They will not be based on a single illustration.

Then one or several artists create initial designs, which are then evaluated by the community and experts.

Forums are for discussing and presenting evidence.

 

What I want from AI is for it to save me from having to combine several concepts at the same time.

I can tell you to take the helmet from one side, take the armor from the other.

 

I will open a topic on the use of AI in 2026 because probably another year of advancement, investment in data center and memory, plus learning, will allow it to do detailed things.

It would be interesting if Angus McBride himself drew oriental archers that Palmyra could have used.

Edited 4 hours ago by Nicolaus_von_Kues

[Nicolaus_von_Kues]

I'll show you an example of something very problematic.

 

This unit is problematic. 

This is the primary evidence.

As far as I know, there is no archaeological evidence of this equipment.

When I say archaeological, I mean that this equipment was never found. It was only found artistically.

Again, I repeat, as far as I know.

[Nicolaus_von_Kues]

The second phase is to find secondary sources.

Illustrations and photos of the renaactor or of reconstructed parts/pieces.

As you can see, not all the armor belongs to infantry, or at least I'm skeptical about using it en masse.

I need more references for this idea... and I'm look around trying to drawings and wargaming figures or even Total war forums/Tale forums.

I also read, but for an artist, reading is not the same as watching.

And if not, I resort to making drawings or asking an artist to do it for me.

We used to turn to Lorgood for sketching.

Lately we've been resorting to @Obskiuras

We had several artists, none of them active.

Some of our artists have gone on to work on current Age of Empires projects. 

[Nicolaus_von_Kues]

I've had problems with the Palmyran archers; I don't want to take the easy way out, opting for the Syrian Auxiliar Archer.

At least judging by the look of the archer from the Principate era I-II AD.That would be very lazy of me.

If you notice, I'm not looking for cataphracts; those references are very easy and popular.

There are no direct references to Palmyrene archers, it only says that they could very well have been Syrian Roman auxiliaries, but we do not know what they looked like in the third century.

Edited 3 hours ago by Nicolaus_von_Kues

[Nicolaus_von_Kues]

6 minutes ago, Nicolaus_von_Kues said:

I've had problems with the Palmyran archers; I don't want to take the easy way out, opting for the Syrian Auxiliar Archer.

At least judging by the look of the archer from the Principate era I-II AD.That would be very lazy of me.

If you notice, I'm not looking for cataphracts; those references are very easy and popular.

There are no direct references to Palmyrene archers, it only says that they could very well have been Syrian Roman auxiliaries, but we do not know what they looked like in the third century.

I must and ner take into account that 0 AD has CS (citizen soldiers).

Therefore, I need to find three equipment levels: basic, advanced, and elite.

[Thalatta]

1 hour ago, Nicolaus_von_Kues said:

What is modern to you?

That which only existed recently and for which there's no evidence to have existed centuries ago...

 

1 hour ago, Nicolaus_von_Kues said:

Forums are for discussing and presenting evidence.

And I've just discussed it to expose bad AI.

 

1 hour ago, Nicolaus_von_Kues said:

When I say archaeological, I mean that this equipment was never found. It was only found artistically.

Indeed plenty of things have not survived, and one has to also consider artistic and literary sources, although not mindlessly. I'd have hoped that since "several artists create initial designs, which are then evaluated by the community and experts", obvious mistakes from ancient representations like spiral configurations in torsion siege engines wouldn't have made it into the game, and yet they did. That is one of the many things I'll point out in my post on the Athenians, but I'm still, at least, 2 books worth 800 dense pages to go (I'd recommend you to read more and play with AI generators less, but if you are not that inclined to do that, then at least try to learn not to gratuitously wave away proper criticism).

 

1 hour ago, Nicolaus_von_Kues said:

You're new here...

Obviously utterly irrelevant for the points made. You can also save the rest of the you-are-new-splaining, which went truly nowhere. The boots I pointed out are clearly modern, that's part of the discussion expected to be had regarding dubious AI images, and that's evidently the end of it.

[Nicolaus_von_Kues]

4 minutes ago, Thalatta said:

That which only existed recently and for which there's no evidence to have existed centuries ago..

You and the commissioned artist judge what the original artist intended to do.

Your definition of modern is different from my definition of modern.

[Nicolaus_von_Kues]

8 minutes ago, Thalatta said:

Indeed plenty of things have not survived, and one has to also consider artistic and literary sources, although not mindlessly. I'd have hoped that since "several artists create initial designs, which are then evaluated by the community and experts", obvious mistakes from ancient representations like spiral configurations in torsion siege engines wouldn't have made it into the game, and yet they did

They didn't know and nobody complained about it until today.

Not everyone is obligated to know what others do. Although artists are trained to know everything.

[Nicolaus_von_Kues]

18 minutes ago, Thalatta said:

I'd recommend you to read more and play with AI generators less, but if you are not that inclined to do that, then at least try to learn not to gratuitously wave away proper criticism).

I read quite a bit, thanks. If the AI bothers you, just say so; you don't have to act like some kind of crazy person.

 

I've already dealt with people like you who want hyper-realism in a game.

You should be more concerned about the units getting disorganized in combat.

You're new here, I'm only seeing you this year. Stop telling me what I can and can't do.

This is how we sometimes lose people who come to work on our project.

You need to be smart and leave your ridiculous fanaticism outside. (It doesn't impress me.)

@Anaxandridas ho Skandiates

 had already given me this level of trouble in the past.

It's a bit hypocritical to say I can't use AI to play or imagine when Depends Est uses quite a bit of it. But I'm not criticizing WoW; he's an artist, and I understand.

Edited 1 hour ago by Nicolaus_von_Kues

[Nicolaus_von_Kues]

@Thalatta

I recommend you buy a good book and read it cover to cover, then tell me what the armies of Palmyra looked like, their composition, mercenaries, and equipment, detail by detail. It would save me time.

Save me time? Not just me... everyone.

Thanks for reading.

[Thalatta]

6 minutes ago, Nicolaus_von_Kues said:

Gosh. The artist intended to portray accurate footwear, which doesn't have straight edges near the eyelets, but curved ones, as every piece of evidence shows. You are just making up what you can't see from a far away sideways drawing.

 

8 minutes ago, Nicolaus_von_Kues said:

artists are trained to know everything.

Delusional.

 

2 minutes ago, Nicolaus_von_Kues said:

I read quite a bit

Not enough.

 

2 minutes ago, Nicolaus_von_Kues said:

If the AI bothers you, just say so; you don't have to act like some kind of crazy person.

Which is just what I did, in a couple of lines. It's you who started acting like some kind of crazy person regurgitating posts that didn't even address the actual point. Just go back and read again.

 

2 minutes ago, Nicolaus_von_Kues said:

I've already dealt with people like you who want hyper-realism in a game.

You should be more concerned about the units getting disorganized in combat.

It's not hyper-realism, it's pointing out errors to filter some of all this information. I am also concerned and commented about combat disorganisation, but that is irrelevant right now.

 

2 minutes ago, Nicolaus_von_Kues said:

You're new here, I'm only seeing you this year. Stop telling me what I can and can't do.

Sure, you can keep you-are-new-splaining after an error is pointed out if you want, I just think it would be better for you to try not to look like an ass.

 

2 minutes ago, Nicolaus_von_Kues said:

You need to be smart and leave your ridiculous fanaticism outside. (It doesn't impress me.)

Look in the mirror after reading all this exchange again.

 

8 minutes ago, Nicolaus_von_Kues said:

I recommend you buy a good book and read it cover to cover, then tell me what the armies of Palmyra looked like, their composition, mercenaries, and equipment, detail by detail. It would save me time.

Why only one? I went through about a dozen books for the Spartans, and same for the Athenians. I went through one just for the Sasanians (and at least an additional article) because @wowgetoffyourcellphone wanted information fast, and I was shifting my focus from what I was actually doing. Ideally I'd want to go through all vanilla and then DE civilisations, but available time is obviously an issue, which I'd prefer not to waste because some crazy person on the forum can't tolerate being told that one of this random AI images have inaccurate footwear and thus needs to demean the discussion he himself says is supposed to happen, which makes the whole thing utterly ridiculous.