Small innaccuracy

[mfmachado]

When you have people on top of eachother what you are talking about will happen, with both under and overarm. If people pull too far back, they will cut the person in front. I did choose to use the 300 one as an example. But check out the History channel videos on youtube about Phalanx, it is an underarm attack. Overarm only makes sense for throwing. The human body has so little control over a weapon that is thrusted overarm (compared to underarm).

[SirWolf]

History Channel all the way =D

You might be right, I see the point, nor am I an expert on Greek combat formations. I'm simply giving my perspective on the subject.

+ not all the Greeks fought the same, different regions, different training, different sources.

[mfmachado]

You're very right there. But go grab a 6 foot stick (a broom handle would do) and try to strike something both underarm and overarm. Overarm is awkward and the most power delivered by it would be to throw it a distance.

It's not that I'm an expert or anything. It's the practicality of it.

Also, look at it this way. A pike is possibly the most powerful against calvary units. A horse is coming at you. Are you going to thrust up into the horse or thrust down? Which will strike harder? Which will give you more leverage with the newly found animal atop your pole?

[SirWolf]

lets leave cavalry for another time =P I never would even think of striking a horse from the top.

Actually I tried it with a stick, a bit under 1 meters, id say like 1.7

If you grab it 1/3 of the way from the back end and brace it on the underside of your arm an push it it a little bit down with your hand then u get an amazing grip on it.

While with overarm grabbing the spear in the middle doesent work really well, when you thrust the back end of the spear tends to raise a bit while the business end goes a little bit too low.

What i noticed tho that if you repeat the motion of thrusting from above with underarm grip your muscles get exhausted WAY faster. Your shoulder tries to force you to lower your arm and the whole process involves your back muscles too.

Interesting =p

[mfmachado]

You get a grip, but you lose the same control. Underarm does use more muscle in the thrust, part of which makes it a more powerful attack, but in the stance it is less tiresome.

Unless, that is, you're going to hold it underarm until you need to attack then everyone at once puts the back end behind them and swings the business end forward. Yep... that sounds... awkward.

[SirWolf]

I was actually defending underarm in that post

I think dev. team in charge of models wont pay much attention to the accuracy issue at this stage, with the limited number of developers it takes probably forever to get something major done. And id say animations for 3-5 different stances depending on circumstances are a rather big one, considering that the game needs other units and anim's in the first place.

Hmm, i should get involved somehow =p

Just think whats gonna happen if a Macedonian Hoplite gets introduced to the game, they gonna argue about how the close combat looks with those xD

[mfmachado]

I was actually defending underarm in that post smile.gif

I know, I was just driving my point home.

Hmm, i should get involved somehow =p

If you want to get involved punch in an application and show us what you can do!

Just think whats gonna happen if a Macedonian Hoplite gets introduced to the game, they gonna argue about how the close combat looks with those xD

Why? Don't they use swords in close range?

[Mythos_Ruler]

Well, my point is that in a phalanx battle precision is not important, only that you manage to comfortably get your spear into a declining thrust over the enemy's shield wall.

[Hiram]

I know it is not acurated but lets go back to the 300 scene, notice how they stab the persians, they can't do it over the shield, but they push them, put the sheilds aside and then strike.

Ok it is a movie, but my point is, when the phalanx was fighting, there wasn't any moment when a wall of metal wasn't infront of you, remember "from the knee to the shoulder"?, if any hoplite remove his shield, he would be taken down, opening a hole in the formation, thus making the strategy fail.

I know the upper grip is unconfortable, but when trying to hit above your shoulder is the best option, is not only logical but supported by art and history, I don't see any point to argue about that. Of course this doesn't apply to open fight outside the formation, in wich case a soldier will quickly change to under arm grip, or to the sword.

[mfmachado]

If you go watch some videos from History channel (some are on youtube) of phalanx they carry underhand as well.

[Mythos_Ruler]

Never reference the History Channel (U.S.). lol... Horrible stuff.

[WhiteTreePaladin]

They also take the "History Made Everyday" part too literally - How does "Ice Road Truckers," etc. count as history?

[DerWer]

How does "Ice Road Truckers," etc. count as history?

The things those guys go through. They should make history.

[DGMurdockIII]

check this out http://www.anvilfire.com/iForge/tutor/atli...r/top_index.htm

and i think if you look at this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spear it will tell you guys what you need as it validate what the OP is saying

[BadassTester]

ITT both are correct

[ExTiNcT_SaNitY]

I belive it's very realistic grip depicted, when hoplits had doris (short spears) first row hoplist would attack from under the shields between the openings, 2nd row would hold the spears as depicted of the hoplits in game.

Only when Alexander would invade Greece, he introduced the lances and all had underhand grip.

On an unrelating sidenote, the clever thinga bout Macedonian phalanxes, was only the outer rows had full armor, in the middle they only wore head protection with a shield and ofc the lance, the lack of chest armor made the phalanx cheaper and could raise more soldiers taken from ordinary civilians, unlike other states where only select few could become hoplits.

They could travel faster because of the less armor loads.

[Alpha of the Eagles]

Just a few pointers to you, Extinct.

I belive it's very realistic grip depicted, when hoplits had doris (short spears) first row hoplist would attack from under the shields between the openings, 2nd row would hold the spears as depicted of the hoplits in game.

The Doru wasn't a short spear, it was anywhere between 3-4 metres long.

Only when Alexander would invade Greece, he introduced the lances and all had underhand grip.

Alexander didn't invade Greece, he only followed his father, Phillip the II of Macedon, which was the one who invented the sarissa and the Macedonian phalanx.

Regarding the way the spear was held, I have come to believe that underhand grip was used when engaging enemy phalanxes from the front or in an extremely defencive stance (since I think it would give more protection to the wielder as he wouldn't have to swing his entire body to thrust, thus creating a gap in the shield wall), but the overhand grip was used by ekdromoi while in 'loose' formation or when charging towards lightly protected foes (like Gauls, Persians or unaware skirmishers) to kill as many as possible as fast as possible with little fear of being hurt by shorter spears and swords.

This is of course, just a theory, but I also believe that the illustration provided with second row using overhand grip is a possible way of advancing while thrusting. In a defencive stance, I think the underhand grip is superior.

[Mythos_Ruler]

He is right about the Macedonian phalanx though. Many of the phalangites in the rear ranks wore very little armor.

[ExTiNcT_SaNitY]

I have expressed myself unclear, it isn't that Alexander invented the lance, but introduced it to the rest of greece, to my knowledge.

It wasn't the 2nd row that had ingame overhand grip, but those further back.