SMST
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Posts posted by SMST
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Wut? A Phoenicia-Greek war?
Not a particular war, I guess, but there was definitivley a lasting conflict between Greeks and Phoenicians, especially in Sicily. Syracuse was the leading power in this war.
Taken from the German wikipedia:
Even lasting conflicts during the 5th and 4th century BC with the Greek colonies, especially Syracuse and since his foundation with Nikaia (Nizza) did not prevail the rise (of Carthage). During this time, Carthage was exposed to strong influences of Greek culture, but allied with the Etruscians.But I found neither on Wikipedia nor elsewhere a evidence that Carthage was taken by Greek invaders, as Ephestion states. Perhaps he could show us a source for that. (no, not something biased about the non-existent "thriving democracy" in Greece (!) that "aimed to rid the Greek colonies and population of land lords, kings and tyrants", which you most probably wrote yourself, Ephestion ... )
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My Greek dictionary says absolutely nothing about the etymological derival of both Hellas and Helle. Just that "Hellas" in origin was a part of Thessaly (whose name derived from another mythological figure, Hellen) and later was adopted on the whole people. In fact, there are "Hellenes" in Homers' epics, but that term relates to the people of that particular landscape, not to the whole Greeks, who may be described as "Achaioi" or "Danaoi" at this time. I don't know why and when Hellas and Hellenes became the common term, though.
And for the etymology of names: That is one of the most difficult matters in etymology, especially in ancient languages, simply because of missing sources. It would be much easier to derive "Alandil" from Sindarin than Helle from pre-classical Ancient Greek.
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LOVE to see floating ships in the new system.
A little video would have been nice, though.=)
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"hoplon" means "weapon" in ancient Greek, not "shield", as the author says above. Just wanted to mention that.
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Question:
Is the "blue" of the Ishtar Gates the Player Color? Because it seems to be the same color as the tips of the walls surrounding it ...
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My understanding is that the Hellespont is named Helles Pontos, Pontos meaning "a sea."
Right you are. As far as I know, the element "Helle" has nothing to do with "Hellas", either, but with the mythological figure of "Helle", a girl, who drowned in that sea.
And I have never heard that Mithridates was Persian, so the myth can't be that common ...
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Hmm, I googled 'Extraordinarii' and this page would show up as first result.:-p
Any historcial sources for these guys?
(No, I do not want to say, that you made them up but rather learn more about them)
Also, all civs have two super units - infantry and cavalry. What is the second Roman super unit? The DD says "Decurion" but if you changed the 'Centurion' Infantry, you are likely to change the Super Cavalry as well I think.
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Well i'm a gymnasiast (something close to a highschool student) and will have final exams next year. After that, I will either have a Free Social Year or I will go straight to university - studying history and philosophy, maybe to become a teacher.
As you can see, I am not at all the practical type of character who would study economics.
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The only "auto-healing" will come from priests and Temple. Sorry. lol
Oh really?
Then you have skipped the concept of autohealing as described here? (somewhere below)
(please say yes)
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I'm not sure we're working on the Carthaginians, but if we are, "working on that faction" in this stage of development means 3d modeling and such, not determining unit stats and balancing.
Okay, then forget about that...
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Yeah, the Carthaginians are strong in almost all regards, but as you say, things will be expensive for them (somewhat outweighed with the good sea trade I guess
). Hopefully that and smaller tweaks to the stats (i.e. fewer hitpoints or lower attack or similar) will be enough to balance things, but otherwise we'll have to do something more drastic. For now the design stays as is on that front though, there's no reason to change things on this level before we have had any testing to prove this or that point of view.Thanks for answering
Yeah, I know that no one can tell definitively what balance problems this or that faction might or might not cause during gameplay without extensive testing. However, it seems as if you are currently working on that faction and I just wanted to point that out. Just a thought that ocurred to me, if they are the ones who pay a lot of ressources, then it's fine.
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Möhp.
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The Great Colonisation would make a great tutorial campaign, as I already said in the forums.
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this occurred to me in the bath: it would be great for cinematics (assuming cinematics are a part of gameplay during campaigns and user-made scenarios) if there were editor-only objects that depict very large landforms or buildings. these wouldnt have any function for actual gameplay, but they sure take a pretty picture. it would be great to have a cinematic zoom in on a character overlooking an african savannah and you can see a detailed kilimanjaro in the background, or some roman generals look out over the channel from gaul and see the white cliffs of dover
I strongly agree with that. Though the Kilimanjaro won't be part of the campaign, most likely.
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I have a question about the Carthagenian Civilisation Concept:
To me it looks as if they had no real disadvantages. They get all citizen soldier classes (except cav archer, but still), all Ship classes plus the best ships, two very strong special units (War Elephant!), if you include the War Elephant as a ram, they have also all siege classes, they have the strongest walls, a very good economy, the best sea trade ...
Where do their disadvantages lie?
I imagine that the individual Carthagenian Soldier would be quite weak (not as weak as the Persians, but not be able to compensate that by fast training and low costs either) and the units will be most expensive. (since most of them are mercenaries) But even if this is correct ... I think that they are too strong ...
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Well, what matters for Cumae is their navy, not their land units. If all it took was re-texturing some Roman or Greek ships, re-texturing the infantry units to stand on them, and writing some unit stats for the ships, maybe that's not so bad.
I would still say there is no need to mod them ...
We should't dwell on detail too much. If we could just take Carthagenians for a sea battle (doesn't need to be Cumae), then it's fine. It wouldn't be too unrealistic if the Carthagenians sent their fleet after the Syracusians, either.
But does a tutorial need to include a naval battle? Are they that different from land battles? Or is there a short scenario with some other faction that would work as a tutorial?
Indeed it does. In 0 A.D., you have to introduce the ideas of ramming, boarding and garrisoning of ships. This is planned for the game, and it needs to be introduced.
Well, i am actually rather anxious on Salamis, but you guys did not like that.
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Well, one could leave aside Cumae and make up a fictional sea battle against Cathage if that is a problem.
The Etrusicans do not need to be modded just for tutorial's sake.
Diodorus Siculus was convinced that Persia must have formed an agreement with the Carthaginians, because of how close together the two conflicts were. He may or may not have been correct, though.That is what my history atlas says here. Of course, one can never know if the facts are correct after such a lomg time, but it is clearly a good background for creatimg a storyline.
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Would a smaller colony be better for a tutorial campaign? It should be less epic and centuries-spanning than an Athenian campaign from hypothetical founding through the Persian wars.
Heck, you could found Syracuse or a smaller Sicilian city, develop your economy and infrastructure, get in a few fights with the Elymians or Sicels or Phoenicians or whoever, and call the tutorial over. Save the epic Athenian campaign for more experienced players.
Something just occured to me when you mentioned Syracusae!
It is not widely known that during the Invasion of Xerxes in 480 BC, there were also related fights in Sicily.
From their mother-city Tyre, Carthago recieved the order to attack the Sicilian Greeks in their colonies. The Athenians called for help against Xerxes by the tyrant of Syracuse, Gelon, and although he refused, the Persians considered the Greeks of Magna Graecia a threat and ordered the Carthagenians to attack. They were defeated by Gelon at the Battle of Himera. In 474, the Etrusican Fleet (allies of Carthage at that point) was defeated by Hieron, Gelons brother, which was also important for the Rise of Rome which would follow some decades later.
That would be a good tutorial campaign. Founding Syracuse and fighting in both land and sea battles. It would be Greek. It would be related to the Persian Wars as a fore-shadowing of the Alex Campaign. Perfect.
And I agree with you. The Rise of Athens is something for expierienced players. I had just no alternatives in my mind.
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Looks like the player's job is to provide better management!
That's what I said above.
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Well, first I thought about was this one:
During his Gallic Wars, Julius Caesar invaded Britain twice, in 55 and 54 BC.[1] The first invasion, made late in summer, was either intended as a full invasion (in which case it was unsuccessful - it gained a beachhead on the coast of Kent but achieved little else) - Wikipedia
Little is really known about any battles, except that the tribune sent there really didn't dare make an expansion there, so a Briton campaign with some tribal war, then ending with kicking the Romans back on their boat, could easily be swallowed as historical enough. The article on Wikipedia is quite good, with quotes from different historical sources. I thought about the first invasion in 55 BC.
As I said, I could imagine perhaps four or five scenarios about that first victory, then perhaps a cinematic that shows the eventual conquest by Roman forces, then 8 or 7 scenarios about Boadicea.
I also thought about some fictional tribal war for Boadicea. It would be, that Celtic nobles, perhaps relatives of Boadicea, question a woman's ability to lead a army, especially if she is driven by strong feelings (revenging the plundering of her home and the raping of their children) and irrational decisions that are caused by them. They start some rebellion amongst the tribes and you have to unite them before launching an attack against the Romans. Also, there could be some doubt about the validness of Boadicea's heritage from her dead husband. (It was common amongst Celts that women could inherit and hold lands and kingdoms. As far as i know, however, the leadership turned over to men in case of war. Of course, I am not an expert on that matter)
Now, this is getting interesting. Unfortunately, the Britons lost in the long term due to poor management, but they were certainly fierce warriors, and offered much resistance. With some imagination...Hm, maybe there could be a fictional character, who is Briton but raised in Gaul by Romans so he would know about the organisation and the Roman strategies. Some kind of Aetius and the Huns vice versa.
For Boadicea herself, I wanted to portray her very harsh and emontion-driven, perhaps even bitter. For reasons, see above. (the plundering and raping part)
I've been planning what I call "Koinon Hoplitai," meaning something like "Common Soldiers" in Koiné. It will revolve around the history of Hoplites, from the peak of Corinth (800BC), until Roman domination over Greece. I planned quite much for each city state (+ Persian Wars), but I won't include the quest of Alexander the Great, since it was out in the far East. I will include what was going on in Greece at that time, though.It would be "hoplitai koinai", actually. Sounds interesting. What city states are there going to be? Athens, Sparta, Thebes, Korinth and Milet would be the most obvious. What about including mythology/philosophy/different government systems? (For example, Athenian citizen soldiers are stronger since there is democracy and they have more to say in public affairs, while in Sparta, elite soldiers are stronger)
Sorry, my fault.
I thought about that the Spartans sent a "delegation," but that was to support the Ionians. Or something along those lines.It was actually Athens (and Eretria) who sent support to the Ionian colonists. Sparta didn't do a thing during the first Persian invasion.
Before i suggested basing the learning campaign on philip's rise in macedon, but now i think that maybe the best idea for a learning campaign would be to feature the romans in an entirely fictional scenario just to teach all the basics of the game. maybe it would just be some roman settlers going into gaul and setting up a base, dealing with raiding celtsThere is no need to make it fictional. In a RTS that literally claims to be historically accurate (which it is) there should be no campaign which at least has some historical background.
And after all, Alpha's suggestion is quite what you intended and it has a historical background.
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Hi again, and especially to you SMST, since this primarly is an answer to you regarding the campaign ideas:
Special greets too.
Concerning my tutorial idea, I meant you should play as Camillus and retake Rome from Brennus, not take Rome as Brennus. There was no siege of Rome, Brennus simply walked through the empty gates, pillaging as they went (Plutarch) since the Romans had mostly evacuated. Camillus meanwhile built up a force from another city (I think it was Veii) and was later joined by Roman deserters from an earlier battle, and in a later pitched battle outside Rome, won a decisive victory, and Brennus were killed.Oh, sorry. Misunderstanding.
Hmm, I don't know much about that, but it sounds really good. It could feature everything from base-building to tactical battles. The only missing point is, as you mentioned, sea warfare.
Your idea for Boudica is quite interesting. I find myself liking the thought of it much more now that you've explained your vision a bit more.Thanks, I also found it interesting what you had to tell about the first victory of the Britons against the Romans. Was that the Caesarian attempt to invade Britain? Some details about that?
Because I find it hard to find 12 scenarios regarding Boadicea, even if I invent a victory. Therefore, it might be useful to put your suggestion first.
The "rise of Athens" was very long expansion: first as the dominant force in Attica, then in all of Greece, except the Peloponnese, then as a colonial power, and finally as a naval force, that practically defeated the Persians. Now, the problem I see about this, isn't where to start or end, but where to limit this to a tutorial. It would be so much better as a campaign (with occasional tips as new things are added to the gameplay). I could find myself doing a total conversion later on, with all eyes set on Greece and modern day Turkey, playing out the "Age of Hellenism." Just because I'm a total nerd about Anicent Greece.You are right, definitley. There is much potential in the story of Athens. It was the best tutorial topic I could find, though, because this is really about the birth of a whole culture and their self-concoiusness.
Your mod idea sounds interesting. Will it cover all of the Ancient Greek history, from Minoeans and Myceneans to the conquest by the Romans?
Perhaps you mean Darius/Xerxes? I seem to recall those were the Persian kings who struggled with the Dorians.
Actually, the ones who started the uprising in Asia Minor were Ionians.
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What are the Plans for Part 2, anyway? Will Parthians and Sassanids be one faction or be seperated? (or even one evolving out of the other??)
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To quote myself:
Something i played with in my mind was a to make a mod for the game, expanding 0 A.D., as the hypothetical second part would do, but in the other direction of the timeline.biggrin.gifWhich means: The ancient civilisations BEFORE the Rise of Greece and Rome. The mid eastern culture, with their grand city states, maginificent buildings and large armies.
The civilisations would be:
Egypt
Persia
(which could be taken from the original game because in the end, it would fit better in the timeframe of the expansion mod)
Mesopotamia
(Subfactions Assyrians/Babylonians, such as Poleis/Macedonians for the original Hellenes faction)
Hittites
Mycenean Greeks
(NOT the classical Greece but the civilisation described in Homer's great epoi)
... and, you guessed it, the Hebrews bzw. the Kingdom of Judaea.
I'm planning to make this mod, and i will probably start working on a Design Document for factions, units and buildings when the Alpha comes out. I have no other skills, however, than working out the design and the system, creating maps and scenarios and a bit of texture editing, so I would definitley need some help.
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Would be a great special ability for a "Parthian Horse Archer" unit for Part 2, since they were famous for doing accurate shots from horseback while moving and retreating.
Campaign Ideas for 0 A.D.
in General Discussion
Posted
I wonder if you like persona-based campaigns or rather timespan-based campaigns?
For example, would you prefer an Alexander and a Scipio campaign, or a Persian Wars and Punic Wars campaign?