SMST
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Posts posted by SMST
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Hey, Ykkrosh, you just made me very happy by saying that.
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I am German. Would you say that I am American because American culture influenced Germany heavily? Or, to go on, even deny any original German cultural achievement in retrospective?
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I agree with you that Greek was the common language of the Roman empire. Though, you failed to prove why all the cultures in the Mediterranean were Greek ...
In the same way when Rome started to expand under Latin rule all it did was take over Greek or former Greek territories and colonies. That is pure fact!Now you are talking about "Greek territorries" instead of all cultures "being Greek". Very nice. But even this is not true. If you want to call the Hellenistic territorries Greek, then, yes, there was a fair amount of Hellenistic empires who fell under Roman rule. But did the Greeks rule Gaul, Britain, Spain, Tunisia, Mauretania? They did not. The whole western Mediterranean was more or less under Carthagenian rule, and beyond that, there were Celts and Germanics.
So again, it is ridiculous to state that all the Mediterranean cultures weree Greek (territorries).
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How can i condense an entire lifetime into two paragraphs on a forum? Which part do you think is ridiculous?
Well, the overall idea that all ancient civilisations in the Mediterranean must have been Greek is ridicolous. You are neglecting all other people's achievements by saying they were Greek, and they cannot have been other than Greek, and so on. Pardon me, but your bias is surprisingly stupid.
EDIT:
Oh, and I am a mere victim of centuries of "propaganda", also known as "historiography", "archaeology", "ethnography" and similiar criminal subjects. Just so you know.
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Sorry that I didn't respond for a while, but I was a busy last week ...
the other ideas to go along with space ships was also to include other space elements and not just space ships and a few halfassed units like in EE:AOC, it would also include resources in space like asteroids and comets that can be exploited fro resources and extraterrestrial life rather than just a few new types of terrain and crystals to replace trees. think alien wildlife from star wars or avatar or whatever else you want as what you could expect. i had the idea of letting space-enabled units first becoming available in the cold war portion of the game, but only exploration units: Satellites (in the initial release as scouting units), Space Shuttles (which later become commercial space ships), and Astronauts, and only astronauts can get into space shuttles. imagine an astronaut disembarking from a space shuttle on another body in space from a cold war era civilization and coming across aliens (humans on another planet for simplicity of programming) in their middle ages who fire arrows at him, only for him to return fire with a pistol (just a simple defense mechanism for the game), or possibly disembarking on a jungle moon and encountering alien wildlife. its only in the Interplanetary Age that you would be able to send soldiers and citizens to another planet to exploit its resources and colonize it
That would as well make an entire extra game.
It sounds very interesting, though.i still dont really like the "Research" or "Knowledge" or "Technology" resource. but Food, Wood, Stone, Metal, Energy, and Gold sound good. we can just make the nuclear ones that i devised have their energy cost be their combined former energy and uranium costs; nuclear weaponry should still be expensive as all hellIn my draft, Nuclear Weaponry costed gold (to represent the immense funds) and oil/energy. (well, to represent the energy needed)
Knowledge was an interesting idea, I thought, to follow my concept on losing the combat focus. With Knowledge and Gold, I had two ressources that were exclusively civilian (though Gold may be used to hire mercenaries and train defensive units, its primarily use would be funding research and training support units as well as trading on markets) Then again, I wanted to skip the dull fact that I have to pay food or metal to advance to the next age ...
also, though perhaps inaccurate, by the "post-modern era" all civilizations should get nuclear weaponry, though some get theirs beforehand (like all the countries who were working on nukes in WWII get an atomic bomber in that time period even though only the americans succeeded before the war ended, so that means that there should also be nazi/german WWII nuclear bombers while others who worked on theirs afterwards get theirs in later time period (like the zulu and israelis get theirs sometime in the cold war era). all civilizations being able to acquire them is for balance
Yeah, I came to a similar conclusion. Nuclear power is nothing to balance so easily.
well thats why ive decided to redo mine so that certain civs only become available after a certain time period is achieved. with the nazis, it could perhaps be stretched back a bit further than before they actually rose to power. i once had ideas before that they become available very early based on the "evidence" that they manufactured to support their ideology (ex: a medieval nazi civilization would be the generic "aryans" from before they reportedly became "corrupted" by interbreeding with other peoples while the soviets would be carbon copies of the russians but without references to nobility or empires). but ive decided that it would be better if they became available only when they historically appeared (and not just when they came to power, ie "American Colonies")Being a German, all that NS-stuff is a bit sensitive for me. I do not want to spread the stupid theory that there was that Aryan Urvolk.
For the age stuff, I think it is too "detailed" in the modern ages (naturally, since you planned it that way) while it lacks detail in the ancient periods. I like your period/era/age idea, though, since it would allow for a better structuring of the ages.
ive been doing a bit more work into my personal project (from now on in this thread, ill be referring to it by name, Atlas, for simplicity). im working out some of the units right now and have only just finished the ones for the first era, the renaissance. ill gladly share them with you after im completely done with them. a fair amount of them predate the renaissance but were in use at the timeI'll comment some of them:
Camel Archer (bow-wielding man on a camel, camel & ranged cavalry; this is basically meant for societies that mostly used camels instead of horses)Camel Cavalry (a man with various melee weapons on a camel, camel & melee cavalry; fills the functions of both light and heavy horses from western cultures, all camels have bonuses vs. horses)
In PG:E, the camelry unit line is unique to the Egyptians and replaces usual light cavalry there. Melee only, though. Function is much the same, but instead of having specific damage bonusses aganist other cavalry, their anti-cavalry function is somewhat defensive, slowing down movement and attack speed for all non-camelry cavalry units nearby.
Galleon (first warship, wooden warship & "cruiser"; general-purpose warship and progenitor of the cruiser line of warships)This would be classified as "Medium Warship" in my unit roster.
Halberdier (polearm infantry, medium & mid-range infantry; progenitor of the rapid-firing infantry units like the machine gun)Hand Cannonneer (first gunpowder foot soldier, heavy infantry; progenitor of the armor-piercing infantry units)
In my draft, spearmen will ultimately evolve to grenadeers and ultimately into armour-piercing infantry because of their anti-cavalry (anti-tank) role.
Holy Man (generic religious unit; this games version of a Priest is different for each civilization, like the italians would have a catholic priest while the israelis would have a rabbi; these would ideally change as you go through the ages, like for Pyrogenesis a british Holy Man would start as a druid and then become a catholic priest and finally a protestant monk, or the like)That kind of evolvement could also go with various religious technologies (for example, research "Christianity" and all druids turn to pre-catholic priests; along with several changes due to the new religious system)
Similar things could be done with political systems: since 0 AD's tech tree is choice-based, it would allow us to make a choice between authoritarian and liberal systems. Each of them come with several bonusses (perhaps even units), but also disatvantages. For example, all things go more quickly in authoritarian systems (ressources collected faster, units trained faster etc.) but everything is more expensive and the overall morale is not as high as it could get in liberal systems. These two branches could, of course, split up in several sub-branches (monarch/dictatorship, democracy/socialism/capitalism etc.)
Landing Craft (special canoe unit that can be trained and deployed from warships to land troops; realistically, a modern warship would have to properly dock at a Shipyard to let off troops, so Landing Craft let soldiers and citizens off at any shore where they do not hold a shipyard. think D-Day)A specified landing craft is trainable in my draft from the Industrial Age onwards. Your idea of other warships being able to just deploy troops on already conquered ground sounds interesting.
Messenger (diplomat)
This would go as one with your embassy idea, right? My diplomatic system is actually based around "favor", some kind of indicator of the opinion a player has of you. Sending a messenger forth and back between two embassies would generate favor over time, allowing the alliance to endure. (You maybe could even capture messengers if you want to blackmail your enemies) What do you think?
Then again, this feature would be kind of useless in multiplayer games, where all the diplomatic action goes between players.
Militia (generic emergency soldier for when your town is being overrun. think Red Dawn)The Militia units are another unit line that is unique in my draft, in this case to the French who can turn citizens into these units for a price. (similar to your Habsburg conscription idea) The units are a spin-off of 0AD's Slinger class - a unit that has no particular advantages against any other class but in return is also countered by none. They would only be applicable in the player's own territory.
Swordsman (initial line infantry; it doesnt necessarily have to be a sword and can vary with each civilization, so it could be a club or an axe or something along those lines)Yeah, when I wrote "swordsman" above, it included also all form of other shock weapons. Housecarls, Hittite infantry (axes) and Jaguar Warriors (mahaquitl or however it's spelled) go along here too.
War Canoe ("skirmishing" warship)Light Warship, I think, it is in PG:E. They would be destroyers later on.
Whaling Boat (early whaling ship available to some cultures; whaling becomes widely available in the Victorian Era: Gilded Age)
I don't know if a extra whaling boat is really neccessary. I know that it requires special ships in reality to hunt down whales, but for the purpose of the game I think the normal fishing boats would do it as well.
EDIT 2: also, upon further thought on the subject, maybe a few strategic resources wouldnt be too bad an idea, but here's another similar idea. instead of capturing, say, a uranium deposit and having that allow nuclear weaponry, there could instead be special, VERY expensive buildings that you must build in order to enable certain units. for instance, a building representing a nuclear program would be required to enable nuclear weapons. there would certainly have to be other types, but nuclear is the only one that comes to mind at the momentMaybe I did not write it down clearly, but gaining benefits of strategical ressources would require a building on top of it in PG:E.
Your special building concept sounds like something really worth to think about as well. Ressources that I thought to be strategical ressources so far are:
- Copper (enabling some upgrades for ancient infantry in Copper Age)
- Iron (same as above, in Iron Age)
- Saltpeter (enables gunpowder infantry from Renaissance onwards)
- Uranium (enables nucleal weaponry)
- Silicium (enables robotic units)
There sould be some amount of civilian strategical ressources as well, I think.
i think ultimately your Pyrogenesis and my Atlas will be seperate, but we should still collaborate and brainstorm; id be more than willing to help you out wherever youd need it
Thanks for your kind offer. I hope I can give you some ideas for your concepts as well.
Yeah, having different projects would make more sense, since your ideas sound very very interesting, your notion of alternative history is just something that doesn't fit into my concept that well.
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LOL because you once again make ridicolous statements without proving anything.
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Your energy concept sounds quite nice, but I fear, if so many new ways to get energy are implemented so late in the game, the late game becomes just too overweighed. It would work great for a mod that exclusively contained modern and future period, though.
Oh yes, EE1's nuclear fleets.
I feel that needs restriction, too, but it could be done more easily if we simply put a limit of one per civic centre (or even less) as 0AD did with heavy warships.You mention spaceships. Very difficult. If you don't want do do it in the mock way EE:AoC did it, it becomes very difficult. Remember that the game is not based entirely on inter-planetar stuff like Empire at War or something like that.
The strategic ressources are something that should be tried out, in my opinion. If it really complicates gameplay too much, we can still skip them.
Well, if you want generic metal names, I would suggest "Metal".
If we specify Gold, I do not see a problem in that.Can we go down on those 6 ressources, then? Food, Wood, Stone, Metal, Energy (probably less ways to get it than you suggested - I think of Coal, Oil, and maybe Solar Energy, since this would be the most effective alternative Energy afaik) and Gold (I still think this sould be the "Research Ressource" and should only be used to train very few units) And pleas, reconsider knowledge.
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I see your point in the alternate history factions, but then again, it may work within your modern-future idea, but not in a all-age game. For example, should you be able to start off as a Nazi in the Paleolithic Age? I think not.
I think we can have two African factions, one the Bantu (Zulu, Massai etc.) and one either your suggested Songhai (of which I know nothin about) or an Nubian/Ethiopian faction.
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As with civ traits, I think we have a similar understanding. My concept is more streamlined, following the 0AD faction system:
Two Civ Bonusses (active from the very beginning and avilable right until the end)
One Team Bonus (same as above, but applies only if in an Alliance)
Six Special Techs (two for every "Golden Age", that usually appears at the End of one of my "eras": means, two in Iron Age, two either in Medieval or in Imperial Age, two in WWII)
Six Super Units (ultimate upgrades for existing unit lines rather than stand-alone units except for some exceptions, avilablilty same as special Techs)
I even thought of a Mongolian faction similar as you. (well, it is not surprising, after all
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Btw, this wasn't meant to be a thread just for me and oshron. You others are welcome to give some feedback as well.
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Well, I just think that "RTS" should not mean "war game" (of which there are honestly enough) but rather use also different strategical means. Of course, this needs to be worked out more closely.
Your embassy idea sounds good. I actually came up with a "mercenary" concept that would enable you to hise mercenaries from allied or neutral factions for gold.
The idea of having Energy is quite tempting, but how would this work, you have an oil derrick and drain Energy directly from it?
Uranium was something that i skipped from one of my earlier drafts, because it was not worth it to have a extra gatherable ressource for maybe 3 or 4 unit types.
What is Khrusionite and what does it do? (and how is it pronounced?
)I would go for your simplified ressource roster, and have Uranium replaced with Gold, which leaves us with Food, Wood, Stone, Metal, Energy and Gold. (If you don't like Knowledge - which I think is a great way to measure the abstract values of the player's civ -, Gold could be the "research ressource")
The strategical ressources were something I came up with after trynig out the roN demo. Though they were not very good implemented in RoN, I like the concept because it adds a more strategic level to economy. (see my posts in the XVIII century mod thread)
The unit types should not be much more - in my draft, ever unit performs a distinct role on the battlefield.
The Japanese Feudal Era could be split up into Ashikaga, Sengoku, Edo and Tokugawa period. It would require a lot more research, though.
ANCIENT PERIOD-- Prehistoric Era: Paleolithic Age
-- Prehistoric Era: Neolithic Age
-- Ancient Era: Copper Age
-- Classical Era: Bronze Age
-- Classical Era: Iron Age
MEDIEVAL PERIOD
-- Medieval Era: Dark Age
-- Medieval Era: Feudal Age
-- Medieval Era: Renaissance Era
COLONIAL PERIOD (from here on are my own time periods)
-- Exploration Era ?
-- Colonial Era
-- Enlightenment EraAbsolutism?
PRE-MODERN PERIOD
-- Revolutionary EraNapoleon?
-- Victorian Era: Gilded Age ?
-- Victorian Era: Industrial Age
-- Victorian Era: Imperial Age
Does it have to be "Victorian Age"?
MODERN PERIOD
-- World War I Era
-- Interwar Era ?
-- World War II Era
-- Cold War Era: Space Age?
-- Cold War Era: Atomic Age
-- Modern Era: Information Age
-- Modern Era: Digital Age
Differences between Info and Digital?
FUTURE PERIOD
-- Post-modern Era: Synthetic Age
-- Post-modern Era: Cybernetic Age
-- Khrusionitic Era: Global Age
-- Khrusionitic Era: Interplanetary Age*
-- Khrusionitic Era: Interstellar Age*
some of these civ advancements are cool, and are some that i wouldnt think of, but others i dont agree with so much.Specify.
what i had in mind was to have several Civilization Traits that cover the whole of their time period even if its just in reference to one part of their history (for example, my Mongol faction is a cavalry oriented civilization intended to refer to their use of horses, but their cavalry bonuses also affect tanks later on). i also think there should be more, including some alternative history factions. it should also all add up to a nice even-looking number18 is a nice, even looking number.
And I think there are too many factions in your draft, while there are some important ones missing (Eqypt, Phoenicia) and some just don't go into a "all-ages" game (Scandinavia, Ireland, Israel (medieval period?), Dutch) . What I would not have is the alternative history faction, this does just not stick with my concept. Although your implementation of a Balcan and Italian faction may work better than my way to do it. And the Austro-Hungarian and your other African faction are definitely something to consider.But with civ traits, I did not have the intention that they should change. They could just be expanded more and more by unique techs with the ages.
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ARCHÉ
Hi everyone. In this thread, I want to lay down a concept for a RTS game that I've planned more or less for four years and maybe make it as a modification of 0AD.
Basic concepts:
The general idea behind the game is very similar to games like Empire Earth or Civilisation - you start with a small tribe of prehistoric men and lead them through the ages to become the world's superpower in the Modern Ages and beyond. There are two main things, however, that I like to stress:
a)Historical accuracy
Especially Empire Earth lost when it actually came to accuracy and variation. In the footsteps of 0AD, I plan to present historical authentic factions and a proper historical evolvement. Each faction gets its own units (although there will be some decent amount of semi-recycling because of scale issues), strengths, weaknesses and even its own individual ages. The tech tree of the game should allow the player to evolve his civilisation steadily in one direction through the ages. Even civ unique abilities will be able to be improved by unique technologies.
b)Lose the combat-only focus
An issue of complaining in most RTS games is the strong focus on combat and the neglection of any other strategical elements to actually win the game. Even 0AD follows the (questionable) philosophy of setting war above anything else and making economics, diplomatics or technology merely helpers to the player's army. In my game, these possibilites will be on par with warfare, allowing the player to win by economic pressure put on the enemy by taking strategic ressources or disrupting trade routes, by trade territories, units or ressouces for an alliance or corner him diplomatically by damaging his renown in the gameworld, and by being superior in culture or technology. This will be allowed by the economical system featuring strategic ressources, the more sophisticated diplomatics system and the choice based tech tree.
I'll go a bit further into some of the game's sub-areas: economics, unit types, ages and factions.
Economics
Other than 0AD did with its rather unique concept of citizen soldiers, ARCHÉ will bring back the citziens into the game. They will be the backbone of the game's economy. There will be some other economic units as well, such as traders or scholars.
There are six gatherable ressources in the game.
Food
Use: To train citizens and most other human units
Acquired by: Hunting, farming, fishing, herding
Wood
Use: Construction of all buildings and pre-industrial naval and siege units
Acquired by: Woodchopping, you guessed it
Metal
Use: Construction of all mechanical units and attack units (sword infantry, cavalry)
Acquired by: Mining
Oil
Use: Training of all industrial mechanical units (tanks, naval and air units, artillery)
Acquired by: Derricks, maybe off-shore platforms too
All of the former ressources are gathered by citizens, for the last two there will be special economical units.
Gold
Use: Barter for other ressources at the market, train support and defensive military units and research upgrades
Acquired by: Taxation (of territories or civic centres), Trading (Land or Sea)
Knowledge
Use: Research all technologies and age upgrades
Acquired by: Scholars garrisoned in Universities
Strategical ressources
This is a concept that I borrowed from Rise of Nations, where this kind of ressources is called "rare ressources". However, they will be much more of a focus here. Strategical ressources are not to be gathered, instead giving you a bonus by holding them (by taking control of the territory that they're in) The resource types vary from those which give you economic or trade boni, reduces costs and increase efficiency of your units, even giving you access of completely new unit lines. An example for the last type is Uranium, which grants the player who controls it (and his allies) access to nuclear weapons. Holding a strategical ressource can decide the outcome of a game and they will surely be a reason for both battles and alliances.
Territorries
Like in 0 A.D., the game world is divided in territorries. The ownership of a territorry is decided by the player who owns the settlement of this territory (by building a Civic Centre upon a settlement site).
City Levels
The efficiency of a territorry depends on the "level" of the territory's city. The higher developed the city is, the more efficient things in that territory will run. The cities "level up" automatically over time, given that there are no things to disrupt the economical growth, such as enemy raids. Connecting a poorer city with a richer city by trade routes helps in increasing the growing rate. Every player also has a "capital" (his starting Civic Centre) which, if it is connected with a territorry, increases its growing rate significantly. A higher levelled city means for example faster ressource gathering rates, faster unit training and research time and the ability to build additional civic buildings, such as universities and temples.
Territorial bonusses
Units in territorries that belong to their own faction will be significantly bonussed against attackers. They have better resistance against attacks from invaders. Furthermore, they regenerate their stamina at a higher rate. You can increase these territorrial bonusses by building houses. One house increases the bonusses provided by the territorry it is built in by 5% (to a maximum of 50%)
Note: There is a General unit trainable from the fortress which can provide these bonusses to troops on a campaign, though to a lesser extent.
Unit types
I want to keep the unit line of the game rather streamline, meaning that there are not too much unit types of which each performs a distinct role on the battlefield and that any unit type can be evolved further in all ages and that there are no dead ends to unit lines. The basic classes are inspired by 0AD.
Infantry
Sword/Main InfantryThe main offensive unit. Swordsmen have a very good cost-efficiency ratio and are good agaist most types of infantry. They also are most adept in taking over enemy buildings. They are best used as "storm troops" to gain ground on the battlefield. The swordsman line is upgraded to regular modern Infantry in later ages.Spear/AT InfantryThe basic defensive unit, heavily armored and performing especially well against cavalry. The spearman line is upgraded to a type of heavy modern infantry that performs an anti-tank role.Skirmish/Commando InfantryThis is a unit that counters classical counter units, such as Spearmen. Thus, they are best used to support attacks by taking out enemy units that could be a threat to your offensive units. Any kind of skirmish force goes here, such as javelinists, slingers and triallieurs. In modern ages, this will probably been a tank-supporting light infantry unit.Archers/Marksmen/MG-InfantryHigh range, high firing rate. A volley of arrows from a bow, a salve of shoots from a gun or a rapid rain of bullets from a MG take out most units that are too slow to either run or keep up with them. Protect them against fast units such as light cavalry, for archers/MG troops do especially poorly in close combat.Cavalry
Light Cavalry/TankThese units are actually meant to perform duties like scouting, raiding or chasing the enemy rather than do actual fighting. They are light, fast and rather cheap.Heavy Cavalry/TankHeavliy armored, fast and deadly. Your ultimate offensive unit. Very expensive, though, and quite vulnerable if your opponent has the right counter units. Does not very well on rough terrain (as does all cavalry)Missile Cavalry/Tank DestroyersA rather peculiar unit, it is the best unit in terms of speed, agility and range. They will have the ability to fire while moving, thus being able to quickly advance and fall back and being quite a harrass to your enemies. In early ages, these unit class will cover cavalry archers, javelinists and gun cavalry, while they will be upgraded to tank destroyers and infantry fighting vehicles later on.Siege
There will be the classic units like catapults, rams, cannons and artillery. There might be some more special, civ unique siege units, too.
Navy
The Navy will be based on four ship types:
Light ship: Good against naval support units and submarines, poor against any higher level shipsMedium ship: Quite balanced unit. Good for massing naval power. Bonussed against light shipsHeavy ship: Good against any other naval unit (except subs, who counter it), but the numbers are restricted due to costs and a limit of one per civic centreSubmarine: Fast and deadly sub-surface unit. Good against medium and heavy ships.Aircraft
Needs yet to be decided. The basic units, such as fighters, fighter/bombers and bombers will appear, of course.
Ages
There will be 12 (14) ages in PG:E who cover the whole history of mankind. Rather than having generic names for all civilisations, the ages will have specific names for each civilisation, at least in the earlier ages. These hstorical ages will be mirrored in the unit roster of the particular faction and age. (note: This concept proves difficult, so I'll probably stick with the generic names)
The 12 ages are divided in 3 "eras" which contain a bunch of ages. At the end of each era, the factions will be able to develop their super units and unique technologies.
Ancient era:
Stone Age
No Metal resource required yet. Primitive Infantry only, no cavalry. Units cost Food and Stone. Basic fortifications (think of palisades in AoK). Mud and wattle huts--buildings only cost Wood. No farming, only hunting, fishing, and gathering.
Bronze Age
Metal resource activated. Some buildings start costing Stone. First farming. First light cavalry unit line. Stronger stone fortifications (think: Mycenaeans, Babylonians, etc.). From this age onwards, additional civic centres can be built. The first light attack ship. Land and Sea trade introduced.
Iron Age
Siege towers and basic siege techniques developed. Fortresses and more sophisticated defensive structures are now available. Chariots introduced. More naval units. Land and Sea trade bonused. Tribute enabled.
Classical Age
Peak of ancient civilisation. University introduced. Wonders and unique units can now be built. Players can choose their political and religious systems, with unique bonuses.
Medieval era:
Medieval Age
The Trebuchet is introduced as well as the portcullis, sally port, and castle keeps. The longbow and crossbow can be researched depending upon civilisation. The chariot line evolves into a new cataphract line of cavalry.
Renaissance Age
First appearance of gunpowder units. Artillery changes siege warfare, eventually rendering large stone fortifications obsolete. (14th-15th century). The peak of the cataphract line of cavalry.
Colonial Age
Mixed Pike-Musket-Infantry. (think 16th-17th century) Expanded naval options. (ships lose the ability to ram each other, but are now standardized equipped with artillery, whereas before, units needed to be garrisoned). Warships are now large ships-of-the-line. Trade ships can be upgraded to "Galleons" that can defend themselves. Artillery (cannons) now replace old-style siege weapons. Fortifications revert back to wood and earth.
Enlightenment Age
Full gunpowder infantry line. (18th - 19th centuries) Nationalism rises your territorial bonuses, but it is not more difficult to control new territories. Balloons introduced for reconnaissance. Ironclad warships introduced. Field artillery receives a new "grapeshot" anti-infantry feature.
Modern era:
Industrial Age
Oil (Energy) resource is now available. Armoured units (primitive tanks, dreadnaught battleships) change warfare drastically. (no boarding of ships anymore, for example) First primitive aircraft. Full-automatic weaponry ("machine guns") introduced. Chemical warfare now possible.
Atomic Age
Rapid evolution of aircraft and tanks. All cavalry lines now replaced by mechanized equivalents. First nuclear units (slow and vulnerable nuclear bombers). Most fortifications replaced by pill boxes, fox holes, metal fencing, and outposts. Paratroopers. Aircraft Carriers introduced. Spy planes introduced.
Information Age
Nuclear units become more advanced, nuclear missile bases and nuclear subs are now available. Further advancement of land, air and sea units. Game now becomes less about holding territory and more about researching technology and "force projection" far away from your territory. Tanks, Aircraft carriers, and aircraft reach their zenith. Spy unit introduced, which has multiple functions, such as: assassination, sabotage, stealing technology, and biological warfare. Spy can also bribe groups of enemy units into turning into "freedom fighters," uncontrollable by either player, but hostile to the enemy player.
Global Age
(21th century economics and warfare)
All aircraft replaced by drones, which cost a lot of resources, but do not add to the population cap. Satellite recon available. Nuclear bombers replaced by space-based tactical nukes. Infantry are now "enhanced," depending upon the player's line of research, either technologically or biologically. New territories that come under the player's control are in a constant state of rebellion.
You advance through the ages by researching technologies. To advance from one age to the next, you have to research each of the four innovations (technologies that are specific to that age and resemble great developments, for example the invention of Letters or Gunpowder) of the current age on the one, and four other technologies, which you can choose freely, of the other side. Then the button to advance into the next epoch becomes active in your Civic Centre.
Factions
(redone)
France
France is a rather defensive and cultural-minded civilisation which can also develop a good offensive power if played correctly. They have a better cavalry than the average European nation and posess the strongest defensive structures of the game.
Representation:
Ancient Era: Gallic Celts
Medieval Era: Franks/Feudal France
pre-Modern Era: Absolutistic/Napoleonic France
Modern Era: Modern France
Bonusses:
Leadership: This provides French "General" units (military support units that give a movement and attack speed bonus to your troops, similar to heroes in 0 A.D.) with a greater "aura", meaning their bonus affacts more of the surrounding units. Generals are also cheaper to acquire for a French player.
Advancement: This provides French players with cheaper technologies, representing the fact that France was for a long time the leading cultural power of Western Europe.
Britain
Britain posesses the strongest late-game navy in the game and is thus best suited for naval maps. It also posesses a strong light infantry arm and, later in the game, a strong airforce.
Representation:
Ancient Era: Brythonic Celts (maybe with some Pictish influence in later ages)
Medieval Era: Anglo-Saxon/Norman feudal England
pre-Modern Era: Colonial/Imperial Britain
Modern Era: Modern Britain
Bonusses:
Rule the Waves: British naval transports carry twice as much units, to emphasize their focus on colonial attempts. Together with the strong military navy, this bonus should give Britain a great edge on water maps.
Colonialism: British players can acquire territorries on provincial maps just by building two military buildings on that territory (rather than have to build a town centre on a specified settlement). This is meant to be representative of the British colonial empire.
Germany
Germany has good infantry from the very start of the game, which enables it to do some nasty rush attacks. However, Germany is strongest in the late ages of the game, where it gets strong industrial units such as tanks and aircraft.
Representation:
Ancient Era: Germanic Tribes
Medieval Era: Holy Roman Empire until the rise of Habsburg.
pre-Modern Era: Kingdom of Prussia
Modern Era: Unified German State
Bonusses:
Industry: Germany was a industrial powerhouse after its unification. To represent this, German citizens gather metal and oil at a faster rate.
Federalism: As opposed to the centralism of many past and modern states, Germany is even today a federal state, the origins of this system dating back to the Holy Roman empire where it was a loose confederation of single states. German civic centres' economics will grow at full rate even if not connected with the capital civic centre. (a recent idea was the economical development of cities and territorries)
Russia
Russia has the fastest light cavalry in the game, which enables them to raid frequently and effective. It relies on numbers of its soilders rather than on quality, backed up with some or the greatest industrial units in the late game.
Representation:
Ancient Era: Skythians and Sarmatian tribes
Medieval Era: Rus/Early Moscowite
pre-Modern Era: Tzaristic Russia
Modern Era: Soviet/Modern Russia
Bonusses:
Russian Winter: The vast landscapes and harsh climate of the Russian lands have spelled doom for many invaders throughout the whole history of thet country. In the game, this will represented by enemy units suffering movement and attack rate penalties as well as reduced resistance to damage and a lower stamina regeneration rate when invading Russian territorry.
Grand Population: Reflecting the numerous Russian population and the huge armies made of it throughout the history, a Russian player will be ablew to exceed the game's max population cap by 25%.
Italy
Italy (or Rome) is a early game civ, having excellent infantry with both strong offensive and defensive stats. It also has good siege and naval capabilities. From the ancient era onwards, the mighty legions are a serious threat to any player.
Representation:
Ancient Era: Roman Republic/Empire
Medieval Era: Italian City States
pre-Modern Era: Italian States
Modern Era: Modern Italy
Bonusses:
Legions: Italian melee infantry gets increased formation bonusses if put in formation.
Imperialism: The Romans, and later, less known, the Venetians, built great Mediterranean empires. Italian players are able to capture enemy units and buildings faster than any other civ.
Balkan
The Balkan faction are good defenders, having the strongest hevay infantry of the game and also strong structures and naval units. They are strong in technological aspects and can reach the higher ages faster than the average civilisation.
Representation:
Ancient Era: Greek Poleis/Hellenistic states
Medieval Era: Byzantine Empire
pre-Modern Era: Serbian kingdom
Modern Era: Modern Greece or Serbia
Bonusses:
Phalanx: Balkan heavy infantry gains a bonus against other infantry, providing them with fair offensive capabilities. Offensive infantry line is non-accessable or a Balkan player.
Philosophy: Ancient Greece is the place where Western science and philosophy originated. Greek produce more knowledge per scholar garrisoned. (knowledge being the ressource to research all technologies)
Persia
Persia has the strongest cavalry in the game as well as good archers. That means they should be mainly used in the earlier ages of the game, where cavaly has the most significance.
Representation:
Ancient Era: Achaemenid Persians
Medieval Era: Sassanid Persians
pre-Modern Era: Choreswm/Safawid/Afghan Persia
Modern Era: Modern Iran
Bonusses:
Wealth: Persian players start off with a bonus amount of every ressource. Special technologies increase wealth acquiring as well.
Horse Breeding: Unlike other civilisations, Persians can capture wild horses and bring them to corrals just like in 0 A.D. Garrisoned horses decrease costs and increase production speed of non-mechanical cavalry units.
Egypt
Egypt is rather defensive, relying on good counter units for enemy offensive units. They are good in a "wall in+build wonder" type of game, since they have good defenses and are bonussed in terms of wonder building.
Representation:
Ancient Era: Pharaonic Egypt
Medieval Era: Arabic Egypt
pre-Modern Era: Arabic Egypt (Mamlukes)
Modern Era: Modern Egypt
Bonusses:
Nile Flood: The fertile soil along the River Nile was utilized by the Egyptians, making them one of the first agraric civilisations and the grain suppliers for the ancient world. Egyptian farms yield more food, and citizens can collect food faster from farms.
Monuments: The ancient Egyptians build arguably some of the greatest monuments ever, most notably the Pyramids and the Sphnix. The later Arabic culture built great mosques and other buildings in Egypt, too. To reflect this great tradition, Egyptian players have access to wonders earlier in the game. They can also build wonders cheaper.
Phoenicia/Spain
They are the greatest seamen and traders in the earlier ages, however, their glory wanes in the later ages when Britain comes into play. Thus, they are strongest around mid-game.
Representation:
Ancient Era: Phoenicians/Carthagenians
Medieval Era: Christian Spain
pre-Modern Era: Reconquered Spain
Modern Era: Modern Spain
Bonusses:
Exploration: Both Phoenicians and Spaniards were great explorers of their time. Phoenicians were the first to surround Africa, while Spain discovered and colonized the New World. In the game, all Spainsh/Phoenician human land and naval units gain a increased LOS.
Trade Masters: Spanish/Phoenician players gain a increased income from all trading routes.
Turkey
Turkey is something of an all-around faction, with focus on siege and cavalry. They are best used around midgame, where their units are at their strongest.
Representation:
Ancient Era: Hittite/Assyrian Empire (Assyrian in the Classical Age; I simply needed another civ to represent and Assyrians fit in with the timeline of the rivalling Egyptian faction)
Medieval Era: Seljuk Turks
pre-Modern Era: Ottoman Turks
Modern Era: Modern Turkey
Bonusses:
Siege Masters: The Ottoman Turks were very good at besieging cities. Thus, gunpowder siege units gain additional damage bonus against all structures.
Multiculturalism: Asia Minor was always made up of many different cultures. At its peak, the Ottoman Empire consisted of many nationalities and made use of that. This is reflected in the mod by having research and training speed at its maximum already in newly conquered provinces. (for you make better use of the local population's skills)
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I would gladly work with you. I think I open a new thread in the mod section already where I can lay down my concept a bit further.
Your civs are good, but there is the problem (if it should fit in my plans) to find representations for them in all ages. (something I struggled within my own civs, think of Ancient Russians, for which I finally chose Skythians/Sarmatians)
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USA???
The Europeans started colonising the Americas in the 16th century.
Or... you mean the Northern-American Indians, like the Sioux, Apachians, Iroquis?
Andway. your preposal is good.
What I meant is that the "American" faction would be native American until Colonial age, then turn into the United States.
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Sorry, but what problem is there with the aztecs?
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I think about EE1/2 in a similar way like you, oshron. Apart from having changed unit accessability (every civ gets pretty much every unit class, except for some notable exceptions (Greeks lack offensive (sword) infantry, Persians and Egyptians lack siege, several nations lack heavy warships), I designed the civs pretty much like the ones of 0AD. Having all the globe into an RTS game was always one of my wishes, and with Pyrogenesis, I will be able to fullfill it.
The whole globe, I said. Actually, my plans go for 18 civs in total. However, I am by no means planning to release them as one, but to split them up in two bunches of 9 civs each.
The first 9 will cover the area of the world that 0AD is also set on - Europe and the Middle East. (since I will have no problems with environment changes here) The second 9 cover the rest of the world and will come with an expansion pack. This includes Asian, African and American civs.
Basic Game:
French faction
British faction
Greek/Italian faction (Ancient Greece -> Byzantines -> Italy)
Roman/German faction
Russian faction
Persian/Iranian faction
Egyptian faction
Phoenician/Spanish faction
Turkish faction (may change into modern day's Israel in Modern Age)
X-Pack:
American faction (USA)
Aztec faction
Incan faction
Bantu faction
Chinese faction
Japanese faction
Korean faction
Mongolian faction
Indian faction
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Does it contain the Chinese? Japanese? Indians? Koreans? Native Americans?
Yes, yes, yes, yes, perhaps. (if I can find proper representation throughout all ages for them, maybe the would be the ancient version of the American faction)
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Actually, I have a mod idea for 0 AD that turns it into the timeframe of a game like EE or Civilisation, which is the whole history of humanity. I will probably show the concept in public when the Alpha is out. It contains pretty much all of the civs that you mentioned.
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LOL
I thought up of a more sophisticated answer, but this sums it up quite well.
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If someone is attacking you in the same place over and over again, it's ridiculously easy to counter them, whether they are in a phalanx or not. If the Greeks fought all their battles in such a way, they would have gotten their asses kicked all over the Mediterranean. The grip you are describing would only be effective against another hoplite standing directly in front of you, less than four feet away, and only if you manage to hit his neck or arm. Funny how most Hoplite wounds were to the legs and groin...
The Greeks did actually just fight against other Greeks, thus, it was basically Phalanx against Phalanx. There were no invasions (because you have no reason to invade Greece, after all) until the Persian Wars, in which luck and discipline and the Persian focus on light armoured missile troops which were not able to damage the heavy armored Greek infantry won the battles for the Greeks. After that, the Phalanx was heavily modified and went towards a more staggered formation, plus the use of skirmish troops such as Peltasts. (which had beed used before, but to a minor extend)
I think both points are true - the basic Phalanx formation until ~500 BC would be probably the position as depicted in 0 AD, however, I agree with hylonomus (first reptile ever^^) that it would be just too inflexible against anything else and thus, I think, it developed more into a looser formation as cited in the Anabasis .(whose events take place after the modification of the Phalanx, when missile troops were much more important)
I suggest everyone just calms down a bit.
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I was startled, Ephestion, that you said that Carthage was Greek. I am even more startled now as you say that Rome was Greek.
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I know what Semitic means in lingusitic terms. I was only wondering what people oshron is referring to by naming a faction "Semites". As you said, there is no record of such a people.
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Hmm, if the word hadn't been abused by the most cruel and tragicomic German's ideology, I would the Indian faction "Aryans". Otherwise, I would prefer "Hindus", since Indian culture is much more than Hinduism.
What are "Semites"? The Hebrew?
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Sorry, good idea, I wasn't following this thread very closely
*grin* No problem. There were actually some concerns (also by me) about changing factions halfway through a campaign. I think it was Alandil who wrote that the identification may get lost.
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(Just an idea off the top of my head: There might be a campaign on the Greek-Persian wars where the player might play for the Greeks in one scenario and then play for Persia in the next, offering a look into both sides of the story. That would save work on separate campaigns for Greece and Persia).
There was a similar idea of mine about the Second Punic war some posts above, if you noticed.
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Got it.
I agree in what you say that you shouldn't have to go back to base every ten minutes to tend after your economy, but to establish it once and then let it work almost automatically. But I think not that combat should determine your economy, first, because the philosophy as itself is questionable (I do NOT intend ANY offense by saying that), second, because it makes the game feeling somewhat un-organic in my opinion. I don't want to conquer the mine, I want to conquer the territory (or something) around the mine and then send my workers to start mining - I actually like to do such things because it makes me feel more involved. But after I established the mine, I expect it to work without any other interfering by me (respective the player) unless it is under attack or something, so that I can focus on my technology or my troops. I think that is a point where we both agree.I also agree that tactics and not speed should win a game, but "tactics" should not refer to military tactics alone in my opinion. Why don't you put some economic pressure on the enemy. Your rare ressource idea seems to be pretty interesting in that. My idea concerning these goes like this: You took control of a rare ressource (say, saltpeter) which enables you to build a certain line of troops. ("unlocks" the technology rather than needed to actually spend it - the actual unit will cost you food or metal or whatever basic ressources you want to have) Now, your enemy does not have control over that ressource and now you may tease him a bit ... offer an alliance where you grant him share of that ressource (which means he gets the bonus as well as you), but in return he has to pay you some tax of his own gathered ressources, has to hand a territory over to you, or something else. Since he is dependant of that ressource, he will most probably agree (if you don't make ridiculous demands or if he has a military force roughly strong enough to capture the ressource from you or if he just hates you too much) and you took a opponent out of the game without need of military tactics, but dipolomatic movements and economic pressure. This system, of course, only works if there actually is a more sophisticated diplomatic system (like EE2) than "ally-neutral-hostile".
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Well, I do not like that "focus-only-on-battle"-philosophy too much, because I think it is just too straight-minded. But that is just my opinion ...
ARCHÉ
in Game Modification
Posted · Edited by SMST
Where I want to go with unique units is making them upgraded versions of already existing unit lines. For example, you would be Greek and the ultimate Upgrade for the Spear Infantry Line in Ancient Period would be the Pezhetairos or you would be German and your ultimate upgrade for the Heavy Tank would be the Tigerpanzer. (rather than having an extra unit such as in AoK) I am actually not a fan of having special semi-magical unit powers (think EDMW), first, because it takes away the realistic feel of a game, second, because they are often too fiddly to use them in actual gameplay. More "passive powers", like the mentioned extra bonus against other units might work. Also, some of my "ultimate upgrades" are already based on the idea of making a unit aviable earlier, such as the mentioned "Pezhetairos" (the long-ranging sarrissa preceeds the pikemen and halberdiers of later ages) or the Korean "Kobukson" (the beloved turtle-ship, that preceeds later post-industrial iron-clad warships)
By the way, I devised a expanded age system, combining some of your and my ideas. If it turns out requiring too much research and artistic work, however, I may go back to my original draft.
ANCIENT PERIOD:
Prehistoric Era: Paleolithic (Stone) Age (10.000 - 5000 BC)*
Prehistoric Era: Neolithic (Tool) Age (5000 - 3000 BC)*
Ancient Era: Bronze Age (3000 - 1250 BC)
Ancient Era: Iron Age (1250 - 500 BC)
Classical Era: Classical Age (500 - 300 BC)
Classical Era: Hellenistic Age (300 BC - 300 AD)**
MEDIEVAL/PRE-MODERN PERIOD:
Medieval Era: Dark Age (300 - 900 AD)
Medieval Era: Feudal Age (900 - 1400 AD)
? Era: Renaissance Age (1400 - 1500 AD)
? Era: Colonial Age (1500 - 1650 AD)
Enlightenment Era: Enlightenment Age (1650 - 1789 AD)
Enlightenment Era: Revolutionary Age (1789 - 1815 AD)
MODERN PERIOD:
Industrial Era: Industrial Age (1815 - 1871 AD)
Industrial Era: Imperial Age (1871 - 1914 AD)
World War Era: World War I (1914 - 1918 AD)
World War Era: Interwar Age (1918 - 1939 AD)***
World War Era: World War II (1939 - 1945 AD)
Modern Era: Cold War (1945 - 1990 AD)
Modern Era: Modern Age (1990 - 2012 AD)****
* I am not sure whether "Paleolithic" and "Neolithic are too obscure. Perhaps I'll go for Stone and Tool, as AoE did, also as a tribute.
** This will be replaced by an individual age name later on, but "Hellenistic" means to be representative of the ancient empires at their peak. For example, the Roman Faction would be Imperial Rome, the Persian Faction would be Sassanid and the Chinese faction would be the Han Empire.
***I am very unsure about this one. Perhaps it would represent the level of technology the great powers started WWII with, which was, after all, very different from the technology at the end of the war.
**** 2012 is kind of a mock date to end the Modern Period, however, I could see myself following you and adapting Nostradamus' prophecies into the game, which is a pretty neat idea for a source of inspiration.