[proposed features mod]

21 hours ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

• Macedonian civ bonus has a big problem with it (res generation), so it could get changed to be the same as kush bonus but for siege instead of eles.

I think it might be more fun if it added extra range to ranged siege weapons rather than cost.

On 02/02/2022 at 3:28 AM, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

Maybe +catapult splash dmg if it is possible?

This should be possible since it also was in earlier alphas.

Especially the splash+extra range for mace might be nice. What do you think?

[expansion&gameplay]

1 hour ago, faction02 said:

do you need to the changes suggested?

That is indeed a fair question

However I feel that on those biomes gameplay also feels suboptimal as spamming cavalry there seems more important than phase advancements. For me the problem was that phase advancement to p2 does hurt to much if done early. That is something a biome can't change.

However there could be experiments with starting with a free smith to encourage p2. That would only require to create an extra map and does not affect any other maps.

1 hour ago, faction02 said:

For the purpose of stimulating territory control, what about a version of mainland with less starting mines? and possibly small spots well spread over the map? This suggestion would not fit what I qualify as a "good change" since to reach one goal, it affects too many parts of the games

Such a version wouldn't affect most players. It would only affect those who play on the special version of mainland.

 

1 hour ago, faction02 said:

I am also still puzzled about how to make trade useful in 0ad.

Maybe do the same as I did with cattle: Make them free but give them longer train time. Also this should require a limit on how many traders you can get.

 

49 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

I think we need territory expansion to make more of a difference in the game. Currently its prohibitively expensive and makes too huge difference. I think its good to keep that discussion separate from other balancing topics, as it would apply to all civs fairly equally (maybe not seles)

For this mod, I tried to be less conservative allowing a lot of different things. for proposed features mod - Page 2 - Gameplay Discussion - Wildfire Games Community Forums, I tried to be conservative and not add any changes that affect gameplay in a major way.

 

[proposed features mod]

15 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

@LetswaveaBook what is the reason for the first trader or first healer being free in brit and carthaginian team bonuses? To me, this seems more like a token and less like an actionable team bonus.

It allows you to use things you would normally not use and it gives a little extra benefit to unlocking these buildings/p2. Also it allows you to vary your playstyle a little. The Gallic, Roman or Ptolemaic team bonusses don't encourage varying your playstyle.

The idea with the theatres was also basically a way to research city phase faster. It only affects those who have access to a certain unit, but the Kushite team bonus  also only benefits those factions only with access to elephants.

20 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

• Macedonian civ bonus has a big problem with it (res generation), so it could get changed to be the same as kush bonus but for siege instead of eles.

Some people want mace to be the siege faction. A bonus to siege would be nice for them.

 

27 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

The current situation is that most civ bonuses are weak besides gaul, iber, ptol, and rome.

I think Iber and Ptol team bonusses are to strong, while Athens, Britons,  Persians and Carthaginians have bonusses that are to weak. The Ptol and Iber team bonuses have a major impact on the game, whereas I think the faction specific bonusses your own faction should be more important than the team bonusses of your allies.

[proposed features mod]

3 hours ago, Acanthis said:

Athens

Naval Bonus

Delian League. It really depends on which one you are talking about since there were two alliances separated by some time, the first aimed at the Persians and the second at the Spartans. The obligations of the Athenian allies were different and changed over time.

In the first alliance (literally The Athenians and Their Allies, Delian League is later name) allies would either contribute triremes or money. How much of each was assessed on the individual ally's capacity. Towards the end of the first alliance, most (all? can't quite recall) paid in money. If you wanted to base the bonus on the first alliance, I'd propose that their bonus increases the fighting stats of naval ships in the alliance to reflect Athenian maritime dominance. Train time is already reflected in technology availability so I'd rather see their effectiveness as a fighting force increased.

The second alliance was different. It was based on harbor duties levied on goods passing through the Piraeus. This model did not bring in quite the revenue that the first did and that led to some rather "creative" means by which the admirals would fund their missions. Perhaps the bonus if modeled on this alliance, the bonus could be something like a slow trickle of metal (like Ptolemies food bonus) and a naval trade bonus to reflect the protection of sea trade by the Athenian fleet.

So you could either choose economic or military bonuses depending on which alliance you are referring to. Of course you could also combine some of the proposed economic and military bonuses to blend the time frame.

Land Bonus

 Athenian military strategy during the time of both alliances mentioned above really shied away from land engagements unless absolutely necessary. Two notable failures at siege warfare are their attempts on a small Corinthian colony of Potidaea (the first attempt was a failure, then they unwittingly brought the same plague which was about to decimate Athens proper) and later at Syracuse (total, utter catastrophe). That said, they had a strong "hoplite tradition" (already in game) and cavalry (eventually they had at least 10 horse transports) which shocked the Spartans from time to time. Therefore I think a land or globally useful bonus for the Athenians might be better construed as an economic bonus, perhaps reduced non-blacksmith technology costs (so it could stack with Gauls?). This would reflect the increased demand for trade in goods from throughout the Black Sea and Mediterranean.

Persia

Naval Bonus

The Persians had no fleet of their own. They were quite adept at drawing on the strengths of conquered peoples. In their long running wars against and with Greek city states (funny how all that turned out), the fleets they raised from the Phoenicians and Egyptians were rarely effective. In time the local governors and various kings themselves decided it was best to supply money. The Spartan navy was subsidized by Persian gold and silver (effectively serving the same role as the Second Delian League). Therefore, I'd suggest their bonus be a reduction in the metal cost of naval units.

Land Bonus

Trading bonuses would only be nice if trade were more useful in the game. Again, like in naval matters, if you were an ally (not a subject) of the Persian Empire, the Persians were rather open handed in terms of funding wars (at least vis a vis the Peloponnesian Wars). Although it would not be very different than the proposed Naval Bonus, you could have a bonus that reduces the cost of metal for citizen soldiers and citizen cavalry. 

 Naval is a concept that is not well developed and it is odd anyway. Unless there are major changes to naval warfare, I will just regard 0ad as a land focused game. Adding naval bonusses would be fine to me, but a faction should also have its perks on land. 

Finally, for me the focus lies to much on fights if factions have their team bonusses affect just battle capabilities. I would also like bonusses that are not strictly military related but for example culture related as well.  

[proposed features mod]

15 hours ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

what are your thoughts on changing the team bonuses for civs in this mod. I suppose we could quickly think of some for britons, carthaginians, persians, and athenians.

Any other suggestions are welcome, but this is what I have in mind:

Brits: First healer is free, other healers are 20% cheaper.

cart: Markets are 40% cheaper and first land trader is free.

Persians: stable techs are researched in half the time.

Also I would allow teatres in p2 and give theatres an extra aura: Technologies at the CC (including p3) cost -20% resources and -50% time.

Athenians: Theatres are affordable.

[proposed features mod]

13 hours ago, Effervescent said:

I tested this in a game and I was unable to make pillar in phase 2 because the pillar needed hero to raise the limit from 0 to 5.

 

Ah, that needs to be changed in the next version. However I won't upload versions to frequently, because that would also require people to download new version first.

 

[Entrance exam to the lobby: solution to fix inaccurate ratings, smurfs and hostilities in the lobby]

1 hour ago, Yekaterina said:

Is this what you mean? 

No, I meant reza-meth.

[Entrance exam to the lobby: solution to fix inaccurate ratings, smurfs and hostilities in the lobby]

@Yekaterina I  don't know if this is a valid question:

Who will spent his/her time to create a entrance test?

 

Doing an entrance test before you can play ranked games does not seem so bad.

3 hours ago, alre said:

remember the lobby is used also by casual players who want to do private games together with their friends, oftentimes against AIs or with modded versions of the game. they wouldn't have any interest in taking that test.

I think this is a very valid concern.

 

Finally, what is the goal and what is the method? If stopping smurfs is the goal then I don't know if the entrace test is the ideal method. But I have a better idea for an entrance requirement for OP TGs and it does not require a programmer. Get your 1v1 rating above 1500 or be kicked.

 

Jokingly, I can't help to remark this: I don't know if this idea is fine with meth.

[Smurf tag.]

19 hours ago, Yekaterina said:

I would imagine that in your early days in the lobby you were accused of smurfing a lot? In A24, while we waited for players to arrive, the hottest topic of discussion was which smurf is behind LetswaveaBook. The majority of players thought that you were stockfish. Even if they don't say it to your face, I have seen many such discussions back then. 

I did not consider people unwelcoming, except for the special one from Brussels. Also I clearly had some general mistakes that revealed that I am was not an experienced player. My story might not translate to other new people as they don't get the honor of being compared to Stockfish.

Also when people said I really was Stockfish, I just played along saying things like "Stockfish is so good, I can't be him". I just want to express that not everyone considers the environment unwelcoming for new players.

Fun fact: On Voobly for AoE2, real noobs get smashed really hard in the new player lobby. So before I joined online play, I prepared myself a little offline. I remember watching Stockfish play against Weirdjokes on Pyrenean sierra casted by tom0ad. Though I can't find the game anymore, so maybe I am wrong on the details. I think I remember the player names correct as they were weird and funny ones.

[Territory mod]

On 19/01/2022 at 8:21 PM, ValihrAnt said:

    Kush Pyramid eco bonus (Available in P1, cost from 300Stone + 100Metal to 150Stone, Range from 60m to 50m

I checked the files and you also seem to reduce the build time to 150 seconds.

[proposed features mod]

1 hour ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

I did notice that the speed made it much easier to wrap and overwhelm other armies.

The idea was to allow the skiritai to bypass the opposing melee and strike for the ranged troops.

 

In that case melee woulnd't die first. Unless there are to few skiritai, in that case skiritai die first. From my tests you need 1 skiritai for every 1.5 skirmisher for it to be effective.

[Smurf tag.]

1 hour ago, Yekaterina said:

Iberian fire cavs cause more balancing problems than smurfs.

 

For iber fire cav it is clear that they are what they are. Smurfs can be an unpleasant surprise.

1 hour ago, Yekaterina said:

1. You can pretend to be noob and ruin a TG

 

You can ruin your opponents rating. Playing half the time on a smurf account also prevents your rating from getting what it needs to be. The points that your main account should have gained, are not awarded. Thus your rating is kept artificially low. Smurfing might be as bad as quitting rated games.

[Long Term Fun & Balancing to achieve that]

1 hour ago, the-x said:

Yes - especially the point with territory or different units is something that can bring so much more

Indeed. The amount of units is not the problem. The excitement they bring is. Each faction gains access to few units in p2 that could bring excitement if the balance was just a little different.

A few thoughts:

-Using CS sword, spear or axe cavalry in early p2 should usually be fun instead of suicide.

-In early p2 mercenary infantry should have some use.

-slingers in p2 should be a nice opportunity to spent any left over starting stone from p1. Currently (in most cases) there is no left over stone as most factions spent it on building 3 barracks.

-fanatics should be worth their price.

- skiritai should have more use than just being a tougher infantry swordsman.

[proposed features mod]

2 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

That pretty much only saves the player 600 metal, since athens already mines faster, maybe this isn't super impactful.

We have to see if it makes a difference. I don't want to hypothesize  to much, but timing is key. With cheaper techs, it is much more convenient to get the p2 eco techs early and I would guess if you reach p2 with more than 120 population, you should have advanced earlier to take earlier advantage of the eco techs.

9 hours ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

It seems that skiritai can't rank to rank 3.  (latest mod V2)

Skiritai were champs in A23, in A24&A25 they are rank 3 troops. This results in the fact that there was only one skiritai model and promotions would ideally require another model. Fast moving rank 3 units would seem over the top.

On 28/01/2022 at 11:40 PM, LetswaveaBook said:

I think pyramids for this cost will be close to OP. However I am not against testing how good it is.

I played a TG and was next to akazid. My plan was to build 2 pyramids, mine 50 stone and then build a stable to go for cav in p1. My aim was to get the pyramids early so I would early get their benefits. I wanted to build one pyramid right from the start next to my CC to benefit the berry gatherers and the future farmer. I started to build a pyramid right at the start. The unit that build this pyramid was not working which meant my wood income was low. When I had build my house, I build a storehouse and started to place the second pyramid. All the time spent building pyramids meant I did not have the wood for militairy, which was very painful when dizika attacked me early. I think building pyramids at the start is not OP.

[proposed features mod]

I had given merc cav non integer loot, which apparently cause a bug. Hence I reuploaded the file.

[Anthem of 0AD]

52 minutes ago, Yekaterina said:

it fits your lyrics well and is not copyrighted  

Copyrights expired.

I think the Swedish anthem has a similar style.

[Long Term Fun & Balancing to achieve that]

On 26/01/2022 at 5:44 PM, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

On 26/01/2022 at 5:28 PM, LetswaveaBook said:

There is to little relevant specialization of units

True, in a25 units either take damage and dont deal it, or deal damage and dont take it, with a few notable exceptions (these are the most fun units to use). Battles are 100% predicted by who will lose their melee first.

I was actually talking about the efforts on which your units spend most of their time: Namely collecting stuff or getting being garrisoned (for healing or extra defense).

 

For example a weak&cheap unit that has its function to scout for attackers and garrisoning forts in case of an attack could have an interesting role. It also could be a good worker unit.

[Anthem of 0AD]

33 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

The team could also do something like this.

 

 

I like that. The beat wouldn't give you a cozy feeling, but the calm female voice brings comfort in the song.

[Anthem of 0AD]

Okay, I had a glass of wine. So the first lines could be:

 

We will cherish all our units from the start. (11 Syllables)

We honour (not honor) all the blossoms near our town. (10 Syllables)

And the wildlife is a welcome sight. (9 Syllables-assuming life and come are 1)

 

A house, is what we will first construct. (9 Syllables)

Oh, mighty thirty  diligent souls,  (9Syllables)

may you lay the holy foundations (9Syllables)

for our proud rightfully empire. (9Syllables)

 

Harborring a temple of marble,  (9Syllables)

is what our gods truly deserve. (9Syllables)

Only with their help, we persevere (9Syllables)

Thus true glory, will befall us all.  (9 Syllables)

 

Such is the reason, why we combat, (9 Syllables)

To defend honours granted to us. (9 Syllables)

Blood is spilled in the gods names. (9 Syllables)

Should this displease our holyness, (9 Syllables, counting please as 1)

then they surely wouldn't put me as flank. (9 Syllables, counting sure- as one)

 

 

I've done the first 4 paragraphs. I think this is a good point to move to the next verse. Since 0AD is a community project I give all of you the chance to add paragraph or improve existing ones. Remember for a good anthem we need 10+ paragraphs.

[Anthem of 0AD]

Since there are many German suggestion, I will mention the first verse of the song Eisenmann by Rammstein.

Mein Herz schlägt für Metall.
Eisen gibt es überall.
Die Familie der Metalle
Ist die härteste von allen.
Du musst mit dem Eisen sprächen.
Ja, du sollst das Eisen lieben.
Dann wird es sich zerbrechen.
Wird es sich für dich verbiegen?

 

--Beter goed gejat, dan slecht bedacht.

[proposed features mod]

11 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

I am sad to see the iber bonus get nerfed again, but I think it is for the best until other civs get good team bonuses

I think the different ranged units should ideally be well balanced. If the Iberian team bonus gives a major boost to skirmishers, then it upset the balance no matter how skirmishers are balanced. 

 

Currently skirmishers are a lot better than archers. Adding the Iberian bonus only adds insult to injury for the archer player.

In A24, skirmishers with the Iberian team bonus weren't awful. However it meant that having skirmishers was no fun without the Iberian team bonus.

[proposed features mod]

5 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

I can test this mod this weekend.

I was also planning to try to host some team games.

5 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

Skiri sound really fun now

Rank 2 swordsmen are very capable fighters especially if melee infantry gets an attack boost.  I am curious if it is balanced or whether they just run down any opposing infantry. At least Spartans lack a champion that boost the power of Skiritai.

[proposed features mod]

By they way, if you downloaded the mod allready, I changed the aura range for the kushite pyramids. 

50 meter is what vali suggested earlier and adopting the changes make it in sinc. I think pyramids for this cost will be close to OP. However I am not against testing how good it is.

[Civ Balancing and Differentiation while paying attention to current Civs playstyle aswell as historical strenghts]

@MarcusAureliu#s wanted Rome to have the best militairy. That would fit with this idea

Romans: Can open/close the doors of Janus in the temple. When closed the temple has no additional aura. When opened Infantry trains 20% faster and need -20% experience for promotion but they gather resources 20% slower.

 

On 23/01/2022 at 10:37 PM, Grapjas said:

On 23/01/2022 at 10:16 PM, LetswaveaBook said:

Also I have been thinking about differentiation and what I would consider interesting is giving Persians skirmishers that cost -20 wood and have 20% less attack. It would symbolize their larger infantry numbers that were not their main force. The skirmishers have -20% attack, but with +10% population space you will still have a potent force.

I kind of like the idea. More logical would be to do this for archers i think as they generally came in larger numbers than skirmishers. But gameplay wise i think doing it for skirmishers is better.

Some searches on the internet seem to confirm that the Achaemenids indeed fielded more archers than skirmishers. However cheaper skirmishers does not mean that a player makes more skirmishers than archers. That decision is entirely to the player and players tend to chose for skirmishers.

 

Maybe I am ruining this tread with concrete suggestions. I think concrete suggestions are needed if you want to pick up some pace.

[proposed features mod]

I think we need to try some opportunities for differentiating civs. I recently made a mod change gameplay as a whole, but a more conservative approach would be to only differentiate a few factions. Also since gameplay mainly stays the same, people do not need to adapt as much to the new settings to enjoy the game.

I differentiated the following factions:

Athenians: Can now reasearch economic technologies for 50% less metal. Coupled with the extra metal mining speed this encourages players to use p2 earlier than other factions.

Gauls; Can now train fanatics for -20 metal in 15 seconds. This should allow fanatic rushes to be more succesful. Also the slinger becomes available in p2 in the CC, which means that if you go to p2 early without barrack, you can use that precious stone to train infantry (slingers).

Kushites: Can build small pyramids for 150 stone in p1 and have 50 meter aura. This makes their eco unique.

Mauryans: Can build pillars in p2. Pillars reduce the research time of nearby structures by 50%.

Persians: Can now train spear cavalry in p1 at the CC as well as jav cav. Their skirmishers cost -20 wood and have -20% attack. Having access to the skirmisher is an now a bigger advantage for the boom, encouraging Persians to reach p2 earlier. Their CS melee cav and archer cav is now better(see below) also encouraging p2 play more. It also creates a quantity of quality approach for Persian infantry.

Romans: Can open/close the doors of Janus in the temple. When closed the temple has no additional aura. When opened Infantry trains 20% faster and need -20% experience for promotion but they gather resources 20% slower.

Spartans: Skiritai are now rank 2 but move 30% faster. I am curious to see if faster speed is more fun than bare strength.

 

Also I want to add a few minor balance changes

Archer v skirms changes

Archery tradition is 50% cheaper, but requires p2 (a net buff as nobody would do the tech in p1 anyway)

Iberian team bonus only reduces the food cost of skirmishers by 10%.

Cavalry changes: Rome/Iber Champion cavalry nerf: Rome cav loses 2 pierce&hack armor, while Iber champ cav loses 9 pierce attack.

Merc cav now cost 95 metal.

Spear cav gets +1 hack/pierce armor and axe cav gets +2 hack and +1 pierce armor.

 

Promoting CS units from rank 2 to 3 now requires +50% XP

Melee infantry get +9.1% attack (NB This also affects the skiritai and fanatic).

 

ps: I also worked on another mod and posted at the forum earlier. However rest assured that I won't spam mod suggestions as I do not intend to make more than these two. For the other see https://wildfiregames.com/forum/topic/68779-expansiongameplay/?do=getNewComment

 

 

 

Proposed-featuresmodV2.zip