chrstgtr

That's what I thought (and I think your suggestion is a good one), but I just wanted to clarify. (Also their spear function is good because it provides a counter to archer's natural counter--cav)

I think you need to clarify what you mean. Do you mean you get to choose what they are trained as? Or do you mean something where they auto switch back after a fight/when walking

You might be right. But I am not sure--traders can be very powerful if you can survive the first enemy push. I would personally suggest doing one of the other first and then seeing how balance is.

Very good point. I withdraw

I personally think they should be a raiding/looting civ (for similar reasons that borg stated). I would apply a speed bonus and a loot bonus. I also understand they were kind of disparate tribes that would occasionally band together. It would be cool if you apply an attack bonus when close to allies, but I don’t think that’s possible without significant computational drag

Maybe just apply to inf. Merc cav is still quite strong I also would never want cav to train as fast as men, especially if the cav is barely more expensive and starts at level 2 The proposal in its current form would make cav have a much higher attack, much higher health, and get to the fight much quicker than CS inf. Their cost would also be basically the same since in terms of res cost and time to collect needed res (because food gather so much slower than metal). Add on top that all those advantages plus train time, res cost, and res gather time would also exist with respect to merc cav vs CS cav

Athens Brits Carth Han Kush Most of them really. But a lot of it is fixing underlying problems with trade/healers

Ah, I was think civ bonus—not team bonus. My mistake. For trade, I think making traders=0 pop would be a good first step. Right now trade isn’t viable because it slows growth at the cost of men. It’s a good long term play but picking that strat usually means you never get to late game. We could set a trader limit to prevent it from getting OP

That just means those units need to be better balanced. I would be fine with any of the options proposed by @real_tabasco_sauce. The carry capacity one would be an interesting p1 buff that could make their gameplay a little more interesting. It could also have a non-noticeable game impact, though. Old building pop bonus from a23? Or can we apply that elsewhere? That was one of the more unique and fun bonuses imo

I played a few games in Vali’s mod. It was fun. It was basically the same game except with an added element of required expansion/strategic expansion. If you just want the current meta of boom, don’t expand, push, then you probably won’t like it with that said, this mod exists to test stuff like this out

I like it with one small caveat below. I would decrease the cost of stone for CC from 350s--300s and for the colony from 200s-->150s. As you have it now, it unfairly disadvantages slinger civs--wood and stone should be the same cost. The whole point of the proposal is to encourage more CCs and make expansion become an actual part of the game. I am not worried about cheapness. The meta will change, but that's the point. This type of meta change is exactly what should be tested with this mod.

I’m just saying there is a lot of toxic personalities

Sounds like something to experiment with. It’s hard to figure out how it’ll be different than women. Making them captureable or capable of uprisings or something’s seems like a potentially interesting solution.

I get that. But it would also be nice if the people who spit the most vitriol from the depths of 4chan weren't the same people that rank among the most excited for 'slaves.' I'm not saying it's everyone, but there is a large overlap.

For me, yes

Great. Both are much better than 2/3 of Athens current heroes

I have issues with cav/inf balance. But that’s beyond the scope here.

See above. Some people think p1 is already too strong. Some people think p3 is already too strong. p2 is the age that needs to get stronger—which I tend to agree with

I find healers quite strong at rank 3. It’s not that they keep units alive—a unit under fire dies. It’s that that can reheal a unit after a fight so it doesn’t die right away in the next fight. That has a snowball effect. It also allows you to rank up your fighting units, which also has a snowball effect. A couple rank3 healers can heal an entire army quite quickly. Denying that strength is basically saying that a half promoted army isn’t OP, but we all know it is

That sounds hard. Also sounds like same gameplay when that balanced I don’t care to argue. I just want the current system gone

Then make it slightly longer building time. Ptol used to require a different play style that many people could not keep up with and resulted in players getting “housed” constantly. Ptol right now is just easy. I don’t know what the answer is, but what we’ve had since a24 def isn’t right.

Fine. Or just add an extra hero for Athens.

I would just revert to the way it was in a23. We know that worked and it was unique. Or are you asking a different question?

Town phase is p2. This will move one forge tech from p3 to p2. p1 will have 0 techs, p2 will have 2 new techs, and p3 will have 1 new tech. Making p2 stronger makes p1 weaker.

It is a 25% stone discount and stone is the only res. So it is a decrease from 25% res discount. Fair point re Themistocles. It's better than I thought at a glance (mostly because I misread it at first). I wouldn't mind if the proposal was implemented. I'm not excited about it (because like you say these aren't meant to be great heroes), but I think it'll be a small improvement. I would love if these were modified to make Athens' (or any other civ's) heroes as good as Ptol or Brits.