wolflance

5) Shield Only three variations that I could find: Plain shield, M pattern and Black-on-red pattern. Note: Heavy armoured infantry could have larger, almost scutum-sized shield (please refer to the armoured terracotta picture at lower left). Larger shield is unusable by cavalry for obvious reason. Other variant decoration of the shield. Four dots at the middle of the shield is to fixate the shield handle. Basic colour scheme is red (or team colour) on black or black on red. Plain shield is yellow-ish. 5.1) Shield Size 5.1.1) Smaller shield For Basic Infantry Swordsmen Advanced Infantry Swordsmen Basic Infantry Spearmen Advanced Infantry Basic Cavalry Swordsmen Advanced Cavalry Swordsman Elite Cavalry Swordsmen 5.1.2) Large shield (Same shape, only larger.) For Elite Infantry Swordsman Elite Infantry Spearman (Note that this is an unfinished home-made replica Qin Dynasty shield modified from a polycarbonate riot shield, the shape and size is similar to Han Dynasty shield, but the decoration is very different.) Reference 20: Shield Size Comparison

2) Clothing As a general rule, red color for melee unit and white color for ranged unit. There are some exceptions, but that is the general trend. Beside red and white, there are also black, yellow-orange, teal-green and purple colored cloth. *Please refer to Reference 1 and my other thread about reconstructed Han Dynasty clothing. 3) Thigh Some cavalry (Not all) wear this thing on their thigh. 4) Armour 4.1) Pectoral armour for Advanced Infantry Swordsman Advanced Infantry Spearman Advanced Infantry Crossbowman Advanced Cavalry Swordsman Advanced Cavalry Spearman Advanced Cavalry Crossbowman Osprey's artwork get the colouring wrong. The Chinese paint their armour with black lacquer, so all of their armour regardless of leather or iron, will appear black. Pectoral armour variations: 4.2) Sleeveless Armoured Vest 4.3) Heavy armour for Elite Infantry Swordsman Elite Infantry Spearman Elite Infantry Crossbowman Elite Cavalry Swordsman Elite Cavalry Spearman Elite Cavalry Crossbowman Armour with simple shoulder guard, armour with complete armoured sleeve, and armour with collar guard. 4.3) Pectoral armour for Elite Infantry Bowman Elite Horse Archer Since archer favours mobility over protection, basic and advanced archer fought unarmoured. Only the most elite archer will be moderately armoured.

Supposedly those feathered hat are for more prestigious unit, which means they will likely be mounted. Most of these things are excavated in badly decayed states from ancient tomb, so I can't guarantee the owner of said item WILL own a horse. I do found some pre-Han Dynasty artwork depicting cavalry with similar hat though.

Part. 2 Unit Variation The problem with Han Dynasty army is that most (or all) of its equipment are mass produced and state-provided. This is generally a good thing as it greatly reduce logistics and cost, and the army will look fairly uniform. Nevertheless, for the purpose of 0ad gameplay, it is a bad thing. Every archer and swordsman and spearman will be wearing the same cloth, armour and helmet, which is very dull and hard to tell different unit apart. A (partial) solution is to add unit variation, which I will elaborate base on different part of the body. 1) Head 1.1) Head for basic unit 1.1.1) Unarmoured Head for Basic Infantry Swordsman Basic Infantry Spearman Bun hair, leather hat and bald guy. The bun hair and leather hat are already in the mod. That bald guy is a cóng people (賨人 pronounced 'chong' instead of 'kon'), foreign (barbarian) troops employed by Han army as melee infantry (and cannon fodder). 1.1.2) Unarmoured Head for Basic Infantry Crossbowman Same with melee infantry, but no bald guy. 1.1.3) Unarmoured head for Basic Cavalry Swordsman Basic Cavalry Spearman Basic Cavalry Crossbowman Same as above, but with feathered hat. 1.2) Head for advanced unit 1.2.1) Head for Advanced Infantry Swordsman Advanced Infantry Spearman Advanced Infantry Crossbowman Leather hat, helmet with exposed bun hair, and feathered helmet. 1.2.2) Head for Advanced Cavalry Swordsman Advanced Cavalry Spearman Advanced Cavalry Crossbowman Same as above, but add feathered hat. 1.3) Head for elite unit 1.3.1) Head for Elite Infantry Swordsman Elite Infantry Spearman Elite Cavalry Swordsman Elite Cavalry Spearman Different types of helmet. 1.3.2) Head for Elite Infantry Crossbowman Elite Cavalry Crossbowman Full helmet blocks peripheral vision, which is bad for ranged unit. 1.4) Head for bow unit. Since heavy armour could potentially impede movement, archers tend to be lightly armoured. There are exceptions to this rule (such as heavy armoured samurai and cataphract), but I think Han Chinese generally favours mobility on their bowmen and horse archers. 1.4.1) Head for Basic Infantry Bowman Basic Horse Archer 1.4.2) Head for Advanced Infantry Bowman Elite Infantry Bowman 1.4.3) Head for Advanced Horse Archer Elite Horse Archer Scrapped Update: Horse *Basic horse has no decorations. Also, don't forget the design of saddle cloth too. Advanced Horse Elite Horse Reference 20: Han Dynasty Horse Terracotta

7) Aesthetic This is probably the only part I will touch about building and architecture, because I am not very knowledgeable in it. I might come back after I expanded my knowledge on this area though. 7.1) Dragon banner This kind of artwork is way too modern for Han Dynasty (I am guessing this is a Qing Dynasty artwork). Han Dynasty art tend to be very primitive, tribal-like, and utilitarian. Reference 16: Han Dynasty Dragon Artwork 7.2) Paper Lantern TBH, I am not even sure paper lantern existed back then. Even if it did, it wouldn't look like this. 7.3) Water Well Could refer to the pottery models for a better design. Reference 17: Han Dynasty Pottery Well 7.4) Door AFAIK all doors on Han Dynasty buildings are rectangular. No arched door. Speaking of which, that sign above this door read "大雄宝殿", which is the main hall of Shaolin Temple (which didn't existed yet). That font also haven't been invented. 7.5) Barrack While current model is good, I would like to suggest an alternate layout: Reference 18: Some kind of barrack 7.6) Bixie This design is again too advanced for Han Dynasty. Reference 19: Han Dynasty bixie statue

6) Siege engine We have an entire thread dedicated to Han Dynasty siege warfare already, so I wouldn't need to say much. That being said, those spears from the siege tower need to be fixed. Please refer to section 2). I actually prefer the more primitive Jing Lan over the Lv Gong Che, which was invented just before the fall of Yuan Dynasty. I would like to suggest name change: Siege Crossbow: "shou she nu (手射弩)" to "nǔ chē (弩车)" OR "lián nǔ chē (连弩车)" OR “qiáng nǔ chē (强弩车)”.Siege Tower: "lin chong lv gong che (临冲吕公车)" to "lín chē (临车)" OR "lóng chē (隆车)"Note: A lián nǔ in Han Dynasty context refers not to repeating crossbow but "siege crossbow that shoots rope-attached bolt". Think modern whaling harpoon cannon. 6.1) Other recorded siege weapons (I simply list it here, it is up to the modders to decide which to use, or not using at all. Five different siege weapons is too redundant for one faction anyway.) Battering ram "chong che (冲车)" Armoured Carroballista "Wu Gang Qiang Nu Che (武刚强弩车)" Three Kingdoms Period Stone-thrower "Pi Li Che (霹雳车)" Three Kingdoms Period Siege Tower "Jing Lan (井阑)"

Not necessary true. Technology can become lost, phased out because it is incompatible with the current method of warfare, mothballed for economic or other reasons, or evolve into/replaced by another, better technology. For example, ge halberd evolved into ji halberd, iron replaced bronze, roman gladius being superseded by spatha, and lorica segmentata being phased out after 3rd century. Han Dynasty likely phased out stone-throwers because their main adversary was nomadic Xiongnu. Heavy siege equipment will slow down the army, making them vulnerable to ambush and raids, there isn't many trees lying in the desert and grasslands to build one on the spot, Xiongnu being nomadic meaning very few permanent settlements for them to lay siege, and in the rare instance when the Han army DID lay siege on Xiongnu, they burned everything down and took the fortified city in two days with overwhelming numbers, without resorting to siege engine. Towards the end of Han Dynasty (Three Kingdoms period), the Chinese were warring among themselves again, and siege warfare become necessary once more. Thus the resurgence of stone-thrower and other siege engine.

I stumbled upon this drawing of a Three Kingdoms period siege tower called Jing Lan (井阑) which I think is drawn by some Japanese . This design is more primitive and less effective than the hide-covered lv gong che 吕公车, but then again it is much closer to the timeframe of this mod (Current siege tower is from Ming Dynasty after all). The only description of this weapon is that it is used by Zhuge Liang, its height and its purpose: A several hundred chi (尺) siege tower use to shoot over fortified wall (or defenders on said wall). No mentions of any hide covering, no mentions of multiple floor either. The name "Jing Lan" suggests this weapon is similar in shape to a wood-lined water well, so I deduce the Japanese interpretation is feasible. The Japanese interpret Chong Che (冲车) not as battering rams, but another type of siege tower. It is very very confusing .

The Red Cliff is very accurate on historical accuracy as far as Chinese movie goes. There are some inaccuracy and anachronism (They use Western Han period clothing while the timeline is set in late Eastern Han/Three Kingdoms, but that is because Eastern Han archaeological finds are way too scarce to reconstruct anything concrete). We can disregard the fancy costume/armour on named characters, those giant shields and round shields from the first movie, outdated or anachronistic weapons like ge (戈) ,Guandao and that horse-drawn chain...thing, serious lack of crossbows, and crazy martial art moves. Other than that, it is actually quite good in the costume department.

5) Naval Unit I am not really knowledgeable in naval history either, but I really wish I could draw some concept of Han warship (if I could draw, that is). 5.1) Rudder Could use a rudder here Also, second 'floor' on this ship seems closer to first floor than third floor, for some reason. Reference 11: Chinese Rudder 5.2) Chinese Sail Chinese sail should be segmented on both side. (This is just very minor nitpicking) EDIT: I might be wrong on this one. Need more reference to be sure. EDIT 2: I was wrong. Current sail design is correct. Reference 12: Korean ships and sail Reference 13: Modern junk ship and sail 5.3) Han Dynasty Warship Timeline (I think I already mentioned this somewhere else, but can't recall where): Western Han: Tower ship (楼船) and Ge Chuan (戈船) Eastern Han: Tower ship, Mao Tu (冒突) and Lu Nao (露挠) Three Kingdoms: Tower ship, Dou Jian (斗舰) and Meng Chong (艨冲). Also Zou Ge (走舸) and fire ship. The Ge Chuan (戈船) is basically a medium warship/troop transport. The only defining feature of this ship is lots of spears and halberds (probably arranged uptight) on the deck.Mao Tu (冒突) and Lu Nao (露挠) can be interpreted as another name for Meng Chong/Covered Swooper (艨冲). Mao Tu (冒突) is described as an assault ship, while Lu Nao (露挠) is described as completely covered, with only oars visible from the outside.Zou Ge (走舸) is a smallish boat, probably around the size of a sampan.Depending on time period, I think we *might* need to pick which warship (name) to use carefully. Reference 14: Turnbull's interpretation of Three Kingdoms period warships 5.4) Fishing boat (suggestion only) I know there are some modern Chinese fisherman still fish like this, but I want at least a sampan Wooden box could be replaced with a (round) bamboo basket. Also, the fisherman should wear no boots/shoes. 5.5) Merchant boat No sail and flag. Sailor (should be generally )standing on the back of the ship to man the rudder-oar . Again, shouldn't wear shoes. Reference 15 Han brick artworks and pottery boats.

4) Heroes and Champion 4.1) Liu Bang I really like Liu Bang's design. Liu Bang had a legend that associate him with sword (he killed a snake to mark the start of rebellion against Qin Dynasty. Maybe he REALLY hated snake ). The bronze sword complement him nicely, as Liu Bang predates Han Dynasty itself. Liu Bang often boasted he "won the Tianxia on horseback", so a horse is fitting. For clothing, as a Emperor Liu Bang would had been wearing an imperial gown called jun xuan (袀玄), which is a black gown. Current clothing is only knee-length, too short to be considered a proper gown. For some reason Liu Bang is trained from the farmstead, but I believe this is just temporary. Proposed Hero Ability: Economic aura: Liu Bang is not really a military guy but a good politician. His presence increase resource collecting speed (and/or yield). Healing boost aura: Friendly Confucian scholar heals better. Bribe: Active ability, paying certain amount of resource to force surrounding enemy unit to stop attacking for a while (and forcing retreat - if that sort of thing is possible to code). Enemy unit under the effect of bribing will be treated as neutral by your faction and your allies. To prevent abuse, this ability can only be used in friendly territory. Reference 8: Western Han Jun Xuan design Reference 9: Statue of a really angry Liu Bang chopping down a snake. 4.2) Han Xin Current model is way too generic for a celebrated legend like Han Xin. Han Xin had the reputation of always carry a sword around to the point of being humiliated (because he never actually use it), I suggest an eye candy sheathed sword for the 3D model . He worked as a guard / halberd bearer for Xiang Yu for a while before defecting to Liu Bang. There's also a mythical legend about him using a spear to stab the ground to find fresh water. Personally I would imagine this hero as a heavily armoured cavalry lancer, as he is famous for his lightning fast strike, raid and ambush, deceptions, and generally high mobility warfare. As Han Xin also predates Han Dynasty, he could use earlier Qin Dynasty equipment as well. Proposed Hero Ability: Stealth aura: Passive aura that hides surrounding friendly unit from enemy mini-map. Death wish aura: Surrounding friendly unit gradually increase their damage and attacking speed the more damage they take. (i.e. 100% increase in DPS at 50% health, 200% increase at 10% health, etc. Subject to balancing). Does not affect Han Xin himself and siege engine / ship / tower / garrisons. *If building capturing is implemented into the game, he would get a 'capturing aura' as well. Reference 10: Some character (wearing sensible armour) from the movie Red Cliff A heroic cloak would be mighty fine . 4.3) Yet to be implemented Third Hero Current design document indicates that third hero would be Wei Qing. Wei Qing is a cavalry hero, but most famous for his wagon fort tactic. He certainly did not use repeating crossbow though, that would be Li Ling. Proposed Hero Ability (for Wei Qing): Wu Gang Che: Active ability that train a bunch of slow moving, garrisonable cart. In term of gameplay, I imagine Liu Bang as Defensive/Economic/Booming hero, Han Xin as Offensive/Ambush/Decisive Strike hero, while Wei Qing as Steady Push/Siege/Staying Power hero. 4.4) Champion Unit Since there is none yet, may I suggest: Cavalry Lancer (Yu Lin Guard)Horse Archer (Bow) (Hu Ben Guard)Two-handed Swordsman InfantryHybrid Melee-Crossbow Infantry - May be hard to implement, judging from the discussion about dual-role unit like Theurophoroi.*There's a WIP elite Han archer model already, I hope modify it to become a cavalry unit won't be too complicated...

3) Weapon 3.1) Anachronistic Halberd Fixed. Anachronistic halberd is longer used in this mod. 3.2) Halberd again Partially fixed. Still found on siege tower. 3.3) Halberd again Still found on siege tower. Reference 4: Han Dynasty Ji halberd Reference 5: Correct way of handling a halberd 3.3) Tassel on spear Fixed. 3.4) Spear Current spearhead is rhomboid-shaped. Could use a better one, but this is (and should be) REALLY low priority because every unit in the game features the same spearhead. Reference 6: Some Han Dynasty spearheads 3.5) Jian, Double-edged Sword Fixed. Jians are no longer used by swordsman and cavalry swordsman units. Double-edged swords or Jian should be reserved for officer and Hero unit only. Bronze weapon was being phased out as well, especially bronze Jian. In short, all long iron Jian should be removed. Shorter bronze Jian is still ok in extremely limited numbers (even that is stretching). 3.6) Dao, single-edged sword. Partially fixed, Daos still quite long. You can easily tell by the grip that these swords are designed for two handed use. Could use a shorter version. Two handed swords (both Daos and Jians) could be used by specialist troop a.l.a. Britons. All swords are too broad, the blade of a Han Dynasty sword is generally not broader than its grip. (Think ninja sword without tsuba but with a ring pommel, and you basically get a Han Dao) Both iron and bronze Daos were used (less bronze obviously). Reference 7: Different Han Dynasty Weapons

I have to say I am very impressed by the latest release 17. Certainly it is MUCH closer to completion than version 16, as Chinese faction finally has most faction buildings completed/near completion. I am especially impressed with the unit roaster, as it pretty much covers everything Han Dynasty military has to over. I open this thread to voice out my suggestion and opinions on various Chinese units. I am not a gameplay-and-balancing type of guy, but very much into aesthetics and historical accuracy. Also, my knowledge on architecture is limited, so I would not comment on the buildings, at least at the moment. Part 1. Historical Inaccuracy 1) Clothing 2) Armour 2.1) Light Armour for archers (elite) and sword cavalry (advanced) Fixed. No longer found in the mod. 2.2) Medium Armour for Spearman (Advanced) 2.3) Heavy Armour 2.3.1) Proposed texture fix for heavy armour 2.4) Helmets Fixed. No longer found in the mod. Reference 1: Armour for a Han Crossbowman (Advance and Elite) Reference 2a: Han Dynasty Crossbow Quiver Reference 2b Han Dynasty bow and quiver 2.4) Shield on swordsman (or lack thereof). Fixed. All sword unit has shield now. 2.5) Speaking of shield...Partially Fixed. Shield still found on barrack.

For a RTS about historical, ancient warfare, making things as historically accurate as feasible is a always good. So I couldn't understand why "Hellenic skirmisher look different than Persian skirmisher" is a bad thing, even if they serve the same function in their respective factions. Some civs have access to special upgrade for their unit, so making every unit from every factions look the same might actually confuse the player even more. (i.e. OMG how can this skirmisher throwing flaming javelins but mine couldn't ????!! ) I heard ranged units are currently OP, and making projectile less accurate could be a possible way to fix that (also more realism yay!). It could complicate the balancing process though, although personally I am not against micro-ing fast units to outrun arrows.

If you want to go for a "heavy armoured archer", you can use this design as a reference. Right shoulder guard is purposely removed to not interfere with the bow-drawing movement. (Although I think the fish-scale body armour pictured above is reserved for officer, while normal soldiers use lamellar armour)

Superbly done! The leather helmet can be transplanted from melee infantry (i think), but those long feathers.... Speaking of which, the reconstructor Jing Ming call this outfit hǔ bēn （虎贲）, which is one of the Palace Guard unit during late Western Han Dynasty (They are simply renamed Qi Men guard). That's why I said before they *could* be mounted.

When I mention "auto weapon switching” for ranged unit, I was actually thinking along the lines of Starcraft 2's Hydralisk, same attack, different (melee) animations. For err, flavour and aesthetics, I guess. (They still die like flies when engaging any dedicated melee unit) For Ekdromoi I meant sword/spear switching, if for some reason Hellenes REALLY need a swordsman unit. Spear-all-the-way is more historical though.

Too many 'toggle' ability in an RTS game with masses of troops is extremely hard to balance indeed (not to mention micro-heavy). But I think an autocast, cooldown-based "pilum salvo" ability can still work. IMO weapon switching should be automated and limited to ranged unit that is forced into melee. (With rare exception for dual-role unit like Ekdromos, when inside/outside a hoplite formation) EDIT Some "truly versatile" unit, like Thureophoroi (or maiden guard), should default to ranged unit, auto-switch weapon only when engaged in melee AND/OR ordered to form into formation (depend on how said unit was historically used).

Personally I agree with Prodigal Son on this one. Even the (supposedly) swordsman-focused Romans only get one swordsman unit and one sword champion. Poor Princeps...

I am all for historical accuracy though. Maybe limit the cavalry swordsman to hero unit?

His family name is pronounced Hu, given name is Jing Ming.

I would say the guy who made these is certainly one of the more respected (read: accurate) reconstructor in China (IMHO). Obviously there are some blanks that need to be filled with guesswork and approximates, but being a mainland Chinese he does has more access to museum and other first hand information than the rest of us. (And I really admire his dedication in reconstructing the Xiongnu and other culture deemed 'barbaric' by ancient Chinese. )

Late Western Han, female commoner's clothing. As before third and fourth picture only to showcase the undercloth.

Experimental reconstruction of a Han period Xiongnu commoner clothing. In case someone is interested.

Experimental reconstruction of an Elite archer. Might be mounted. The bracers and the tiger stripe pant are mix-and-matched from actual archaeological finds.