Prodigal Son
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Posts posted by Prodigal Son
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History: As the cradle of Western civilization and the birthplace of democracy, Athens was famed as a center for the arts, learning and philosophy. The Athenians were also powerful warriors, particularly at sea. At its peak, Athens dominated a large part of the Hellenic world for several decades.
Gameplay: The Athenians field a relatively balanced military and a powerful navy. Their economy is one of the strongest, with several bonuses and their defenses formidable. No branch of their land forces is top tier tough, with their cavalry being possibly the most lacking one. Their Unique Unit is a fast moving spearman able to handle any threat without being severely outclassed.
Civilization Bonuses:
- Town, City, Imperial Phase -20% cost. (huge city, cultural advancements).
- Villagers +15% metal mining rate (Laurion silver mines).
- Special Structures -50% cost and build time (culture, philosophy, golden age of pericles).
- Stone Walls -50% build time, buildable in neutral territory (long walls of Athens).
- Team Bonus: Warships -20% build time (Delian league).
Unique Units:
- Reformed Hoplite (Agile spearman, x1.5 vs cavalry units).
Unique Technologies:
- Iphicratean Reforms (Infantry Units +10% speed).
- Imperialism (Civil Centres generate 1 metal every 2 seconds).
- Chorigoi (Triremes -50% metal cost).
Unique Structures:
- Academy (Researches academic technologies with defence, military and siege benefits).
- Theatron (Structures +25% vision and territory influence).
Units:
(Wip)
Barracks Units:
- Hoplite (Stronger replacement for the generic Spearman, ranks I-III).
- Skirmisher (ranks I-III).
- Pikeman
- Archer (ranks I-III).
- Slinger (ranks I-III).
- Swordsman
Stables Units:
- Cavalry Skirmisher (Ranks I-III).
- Light Cavalry (Ranks I-III).
- Heavy Cavalry (Ranks I-III).
- Camel Rider
- Cavalry Archer
- War Elephant
Workshop Units:
- Ram
- Bolt Shooter
- Stone Thrower
- Chariot
- Siege Tower
Fortress Units:
- Reformed Hoplite
- Thracian Rhomphaiophoros
- Scythian Horse Archer
Purple: Unique Unit, Blue: Replacement Unit, Black: Available Unit, Red: Forbidden Unit, Teal: Mercenary Unit.
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History: Carthage, a city-state in modern-day Tunisia, was a formidable force in the western Mediterranean, eventually taking over much of North Africa and modern-day Spain in the third century B.C. The sailors of Carthage were among the fiercest contenders on the high seas, and masters of naval trade. They deployed towered War Elephants on the battlefield to fearsome effect, and had defensive walls so strong, they were never breached.
Gameplay: The Carthaginians are an expansive and naval power. They are great at scouting and rapidly constructing tough settlements. Their main unit choices are very limited, but they can call upon their large host of mercenaries if they have secured enough metal. Besides their stronger defensive structures, their temples contribute to town defenses by their quick training of powerful Sacred Band units, who are usually not cost efficient enough to find other uses. Their Elephant unique unit and their good siege weapons allow for devastating counterattacks when well supported. Carthaginian fleets can be large and fast moving making them one of the best naval civilizations
Civilization Bonuses:
- Cavalry, Ships +20% vision, +10% speed (exploration, good cavalry).
- Villagers +15% wood gathering rate (fleet building).
- Fortresses, Walls, Barracks +25% hitpoints (strong walls including fortified barracks).
- Civic Structures, Docks, Markets -20% build time (colonization).
- Team Bonus: Cargo Ships +20% speed (sea trade, troop transports).
Unique Units:
- Forest Elephant (Powerful Elephant).
- Sacred Band Infantry (Tough, fast trained spearman. x1.5 vs cavalry units. Trained at the Temple).
- Sacred Band Cavalry (Tough, fast trained cavalry. Trained at the Temple).
Unique Technologies:
- Xanthippian Reforms (Soldiers +10% attack).
- Recruiting Agents (Mercenaries -25% metal cost).
- Mass Production (Siege Weapons -25% build time).
Unique Structures:
- Academy (Researches academic technologies with defence, military and siege benefits).
- Embassy (Hires mercenary units in addition to the Fortress. Replaces the Stables).
Units:
(Wip)
Barracks Units:
- Libyan Infantry (Stronger replacement for the generic Spearman, ranks I-III).
- Skirmisher (ranks I-III).
- Pikeman
- Archer
- Slinger
- Swordsman
Embassy Units:
- Swordsman
- Slinger
- Archer
- Cavalry Skirmisher
- Light Cavalry
- Heavy Cavalry
Workshop Units:
- Ram
- Bolt Shooter
- Stone Thrower
- Chariot
- Siege Tower
Fortress Units:
- Forest Elephant
- Swordsman
- Slinger
- Archer
- Cavalry Skirmisher
- Light Cavalry
- Heavy Cavalry
Temple Units:
- Sacred Band infantry
- Sacred Band Cavalry
Purple: Unique Unit, Blue: Replacement Unit, Black: Available Unit, Red: Forbidden Unit, Teal: Mercenary Unit.
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Currently, no standard version is available (the first one will probably come with Alpha
1819), but you can get the current work in progress one following the instructions bellow.To install the mod:
- Get a working installation of the SVN version of the game.
- Follow this link.
- Click on "download zip" (at the bottom right).
- Unzip it into binary/data/mods of your SVN installation.
- To keep track of changes without having to re-download the mod every time, you can follow this guide. (You need an account, cloning the directory and then sync to automatically get updates)
Keep in mind that the mod is far from done.
Many concepts are partial, balance isn't ready yet and bugs exist. The mod might even be unplayable until fixed if SVN updates break something.
Known Issues:
- Using the in game Structure Tree will result in an error (no crush though). According to Leper this is a strange issue on the engine's end, so nothing I can fix now.
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Ancient Empires is a mod for 0 A.D. Empires Ascendant, aiming at historical authenticity and gameplay rebalance. Currently I'm working alone on it, but if you are interested in helping out you can contact me. Feedback and brainstorming are very welcome as well, you can check the specific threads and add your suggestions. The mod's main goals, changes and features are listed bellow.
Gameplay: The mod is closer to Age Of Kings than any other RTS game, to which the tech-tree layout and parts of gameplay are pretty similar. However many concepts from 0 A.D. have been maintained, together with ideas taken from other games, the community, as well as several of mine. The game pace is slower and a bit more macro focused compared to the main game in almost every aspect. Counters (mostly soft) are reintroduced in many cases, inspired mostly from historical unit roles. For more details check here.
Civilizations: For now no new civs have been added, as balancing the existing 12 is already hard enough. The tech-tree is made more clear by having a majority of common techs and units available at standardized structures and Civ specific ones available at the Fortress (with a few exceptions clarified at the history screen). Each Civ gets a mostly new set of bonuses and champion units, which are now changed as a concept. Links to Civ threads: Athen Brit Cart Gaul Iber Mace Maur Pers Ptol Rome Sele Spart
Units: Unique units, the replacement of champions, aren't necessarily the most powerful units a Civ can have. Each civ gets a historically determined base rooster from the shared units, which range from cheap Skirmishers to powerful War Elephants. Unique units often come to fill missing unit roles or add new ones and are chosen from rare units that were dissimilar in function to other, more common units. So there won't be many unit duplicates per faction, like Spearman and Superspearman with the exact same role, only different in power and cost. Some exceptions exist, as this is a still a work in progress feature. Besides unique units, some Civs have slightly varied versions of the common units. For example, in place of the weak, basic spearman, the Athenians get the more costly and powerful Hoplite.
Random Maps: The mod will focus on random maps instead of skirmish maps, to reduce copy-paste build orders and keep scouting important.
Major Changes: Some core features of 0 A.D. have been removed or majorly altered. Citizen-Soldiers are gone now, to make raiding the economy a more valid strategy and allow for bigger price/attribute differences between units and civs without breaking balance too much. Female citizens have been replaced with male ones until a possibility for different sexes per unit is implemented (see help needed). Structure capturing was never implemented in the mod and probably won't be. Territory influence has a softer function. It is needed for the construction of some structures and prevents enemies from building in it, but most structures can be constructed outside of it. Line of sight and attack range are generally much lower than in the main game. Starting stone and metal mines are moved right outside of the players starting territory in most random maps instead of being close to the civil centre.
You can find many more ideas here (not all of those fit with the mod's concept though).
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Reform can be work like pair tech like Seleucid reform
Choose between keep improving old units or new ones.
I'm looking for more specific ideas, not a general concept.
Curious about that skirmisher train time of 8 seconds. Civs without skirmishers get a huge eco disadvantage, especially in earlygame; ptolomies are (imho) op in a17 (especially village phase) cuz of that 8 seconds train time of their nubian archers.
2 questions:
- Iberians: Ever thought of removing their village walls?
- Champions: Health should be increased drastically. They should have more than any upgraded citizen soldier (?).
Will further play/test your mod when its done. Have the feeling that balancing civs might get pretty hard/impossible due to your unique features, but as mentioned earlier, maybe this isn't your intention.
Civs without skirmishers get archers or slingers which train slower but cost less resources. Testing will show if one of the two is op. Btw I've removed all skirmishers and cavalry from the CC (exceptions are seleucids and ptolemies with some town phase troops) and only pers/mau can train archers at the CC. The rest of the civs only train spearmen and females there. (I think those ptolemaic archers train at 7 secs and are available at the civ center and cost no food, things which make them relatively more spammable than my skirmishers early on). There's still the chance I'll remove citizen soldiers overall at some point, so such things will effect balance far less.
- Already removed the Iberian walls and replaced them with a slightly buffed CC. Still looking for extra unique techs and reforms for them and the Mauryans.
- Champions are indeed buffed and more health is one of their changes.
I'm sure it's hard to reach perfect balance, that can't be done anyway unless the civs are clones of each other, but I believe I've got a clue on the effects of most of my design choices and where testing proves me wrong, things will change. Testing will be needed indeed:).
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I've decided to go one step further and rebalance the entire combat system. Units besides heroes, ships and siege are ready besides fine-tuning. I've tried to define unit roles by real attributes.
A few hints on it:
- Pikemen have greater attack and range (two handed pike) than Spearmen but reduced pierce armor (smaller shields).
- Swordsmen have the same defense stats with Spearmen, but soft counter them with a higher attack. Pikemen soft counter Spearmen and Swordsmen. However this doesn't mean they're stronger in general. Pikemen are slower and more vulnerable to ranged units. Spearmen are better than Pikemen vs cavalry spears and slightly faster. Swordsmen with their hack attack are better vs structures (assault infantry) and are slightly faster than Spearmen.
- Skirmishers have much shorter-ranged, heavier and slower attack than Archers and Slingers, while Slingers start with the same range as Archers but get more range upgrades with ranks.
- All citizen soldiers cost 50 food, but their train times and secondary resource costs are balanced by the expense of their equipment and their drill time. For example, Skirmishers cost 40 wood and train at 8 seconds, Archers 30 wood but train at 12 seconds (cheaper equipment but more training needed for Archers).
- Citizen soldiers of the same class will have exactly the same stats for all factions, unless altered by civ bonuses. Champions in many cases will be further differentiated regardless of their class (wip).
The civs are coming along nicely, I'd love reform and unique tech suggestions on the Mauryans and the Iberians though.
Everything is still subject to balance and changes, playtesters are very welcome. I'll update this with detailed general and civ changes pretty soon.
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On buildings:
- They are too easy to kill when they're being built, especially to ranged units.
- They are still waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too strong against units when they're up. Mother mercy it's not even funny how strong buildings are. Units are irrelevant in the game until buildings are nerfed.
Not at all, imho. Think they are too weak vs pierce damage. Arrows can not take a building down, not at all, but 40 archers kill a building in seconds..
Also think that siege engines exist for a reason ...
Btw, "units", what do you mean exactly? Also hack_dealing units (roman swordmen are pretty nice siege_units, eg)?
Imo buildings are strong not because they have too much hp or armor, but because they (still) have too high of an attack when garrisoned (compare it to AOM or AOE games for example). Actually most buildings have too low of a hack armor, often at the same levels with their crush one, making melee units better siege weapons than the actual ones due to massability. I see more of a problem when about 15 swordsmen easily kill a CC than 40 archers.
What I'd do and will do for my mod is buffing their defense a little but reducing the bonus arrows per unit.
Defensive buildings should this way be what they are meant for:
- Hard to kill, but not killers.
- Protecting chock points or economy (with some fire power and garrisons slots for civilians).
- Able to last until help arrives if you're not too slow or your army is at the other side of the map, giving some response time.
It should also reduce the effectiveness of forward building which seems to be the dominant strategy.
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The reason for having Skiritae treated like elite units is because they were some of the most dependable allied units, as can be learned from Thucydides and Xenophon. I never implied that they were super elite.
True, I didn't mean you said so, it's just the impression they gave trained being at the elite rank and named "commandos". Still they were spearmen and Spartans already have great spearmen and had no dedicated sword units, so I'm concerned about it. Could do it for balance reasons if needed and no better solution is thought of though.
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Just a thought, but perhaps Skiritae could be treated like triarii with their starting rank. Otherwise, good thoughts.
Skiritae are a bit tricky. They were certainly not swordsmen, but spearmen who at first fought as hoplites and then as ekdromoi (light hoplites with no body armor) when the Spartans forced them to do so in need of a more flexible flank guard. They were not some super elite unit, just the fighting men of the town Skiris, to the north of Sparta.
What I'm thinking about is leaving them as swordmen, since Sparta is already too spear-focused, but would that justify buffing them in a role that wasn't even their real one? Any better ideas?
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All changes so far (reduced detail to save space)
MISC CHANGES
- Trade Ships cost 100 wood 50 metal
- Wonders provide a tickle of metal
- Many new/changed techs (wip)
CARTHAGE
Civ Bonuses:
- Cavalry, Traders and Ships +20% line of sight.
- Civic Centers, Houses and Temples -20% build time.
Team Bonus:
- Trade Ships move 33% faster (currently not shared).
Unique Techs:
- Barcid Armies Reform: Mercenaries cost 20% less metal and gain +1 pierce and hack armor levels.
- Fortified Barracks: +30% Fortress and Barracks hit points.
- Mass Production: -25% Siege Weapon build time.
Misc:
- Ship Armor and Construction Speed upgrades now available at both docks, to remove their inexcusable naval handicap.
- Reduced Temple cost to 300, 400 seemed too high.
CELTS
Civ Bonuses:
- Infantry citizen soldiers +50% farm, hunt and herd rate.
- Druids increase attack damage of soldiers near them by 0.5 (low placeholder until non-stacked auras are available).
- Melee infantry +10% walk and run speed.
- Structures construct 20% faster but are also 20% weaker.
Gauls only Team Bonus:
- 10% decreased train time for Champion and Mercenary units (currently not shared).
Unique Techs:
- Trimarchisia: Cavalry units regenerate health rapidly over time when idle.
- Late Reform: +2 hack and +1 pierce armor for melee infantry and cavalry units.
Britons only Team Bonus:
- +50% Trade Ship hit points (currently not shared).
Unique Techs:
- Sevili Dusios: +20% melee infantry attack (placeholder for woad caused fear aura).
- Turos Maros: Increases tower hit points by 50% and adds an extra default arrow.
- Levy Reform: All citizen soldiers train 20% faster.
ATHENIANS
Civ Bonuses:
- +10% metal mining rate for each phase up.
- Structures have +10% hit points.
- Javelin units +15% pierce damage.
Team Bonus:
- +25% ship construction speed (currently not shared).
Unique Techs:
- Iphicratian Reforms: +15% movement speed for all infantry.
- Long Walls: Readded the -50% wall cost bonus but increased research cost (Change to build faster!!!). Still allows wall construction in neutral territory.
- Imperialism: Civic Centers provide a small tickle of metal.
- Chorigoi: Reduces Trireme metal cost by 50%.
SPARTANS
Civ Bonuses:
- All upgrades at the Syssition cost no resources, but have double research time.
- Spartan female citizens are capable of constructing defense towers and palisades and have x2.5 damage versus siege weapons.
- Spartan Spear Infantry +10% hit point and attack but also +20% train time.
- Can't build stone walls.
Team Bonus:
- +10% spear unit hit points (currently not shared).
Unique Techs:
- Cleomenian Reforms: Spartan Pikemen are unlocked. +25% farming rate for all workers.
- Tyrtean Paeans: +10% spear infantry walk and run speed.
- The Agoge: +25% health for spear infantry, but also +10% train time.
Misc:
- Syssition limited to one, moved to the village phase
- Spartan Hoplites trained at the Civ Center and Syssition, Spartan Royal Guard Champion Hoplites trained at the Syssition
- Skirites given normal swordsmen attributes and ranks.
- Barracks trains the non-hoplite units.
MACEDONIANS
Civ Bonuses:
- +10% Cavalry walk and run speed.
- +15% Javelin Infantry attack.
Team Bonus:
- All units and structures -5% metal cost (currently not shared).
Unique Techs:
- Antigonid Reform: Pikemen train 20% faster and get +1 hack and pierce armor levels. Unlocks the Kestros Sling upgrade (to be enhanced by second reform).
- Fetters Of Hellas: +50% Fortress hit points.
- Silver Shields Regiment: Upgrade Shield Bearer Champion Infantry to Silver Shields, with greater attack, health and armor.
- Hellenistic Metropolises: Civic Centers have double Health and double default arrows.
SELEUCIDS
Civ Bonuses:
- Civic Centers provide an increased number of available units, but barracks are limited to weaker levy troops and have a reduced territory influence.
- Increased number of Champion units available.
Team Bonus:
- Civic Centers are 20% cheaper (currently not shared).
Unique Techs:
- Cavalry Reform: Unlock the Seleucid Cataphract.
- Infantry Reform: Unlock the Romanized Heavy Swordsman.
- Cleruchy: 20% faster batch training for the Civic Center.
- Nisean War Horses: +20% health for cavalry.
- Hellenistic Metropolises: Civic Centers have double Health and double default arrows.
Misc:
- Wip rearrangement of troop production facilities
PTOLEMIES
Civ Bonuses:
- Civic Centers provide an increased number of available units, but barracks are limited to weaker levy troops and have a reduced territory influence.
- Houses, Farmsteads, Storehouses and Corrals cost no resources but take longer to build.
- -50% Temple technology cost and research time.
- +33% farming rate for all workers.
Team Bonus:
- Docks provide a slow trickle of food income (currently not shared/placeholder).
Unique Techs:
- Machimoi Reforms: Unlock the Egyptian Pikeman Champion. (Weak and cheap for a champion, fast trained).
- Romanization Reforms: All pike infantry units are replaced by Romanized Swordsman Champions. Requires Machimoi Reforms.
- Advanced Engineering: +20% Structure, Ship and Siege Unit hit points.
- Ptolemaic Garrisons: Fortresses get 40% more arrows fired per garrisoned soldier.
- Mercenary Army: -50% Mercenary unit train time.
- Hellenistic Metropolises: Civic Centers have double Health and double default arrows.
Misc:
- Wip rearrangement of troop production facilities
ROMANS
Civ Bonuses:
- Triarii are trained at the advanced rank.
- Units within vision range of Roman Civil Centre gain +10% attack.
Team Bonus:
- Infantry citizen soldiers train 10% faster (currently not shared).
Unique Techs:
- Marian Reforms: All Melee infantry units are replaced by Marian Legionary Champions.
- Gladius Hispaniensis: +15% Sword infantry attack damage.
- Logistics: Melee infantry train 25% faster.
- Imported Construction Technology: +10% Structure, Ship and Siege Unit hit points and attack damage.
- Sibylline Books: +25% Vision range for all units.
Misc:
- Extraordinarii removed.
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Rural Lifestyle
{"value": "ResourceGatherer/Rates/food.grain", "add": 0.25},
{"value": "ResourceGatherer/Rates/food.meat", "add": 0.5}Female Gather Rates
<food.grain>0.5</food.grain>
<food.meat>1</food.meat>Male Gather Rates
<food.grain>0.25</food.grain>
<food.meat>1</food.meat>So I've mistakenly added +100% instead of +50% at the farming rate. That would make them equals and that extra 10% you monitored should be from the female auras. Thanks for the find.
SPARTANS (more experimental than the rest so far)
- Laws of Lycurgus civ bonus: All upgrades at the Syssition cost no resources, but have double research time.
- Feminine Mystique civ bonus: unchanged, spartan female citizens are capable of constructing defense towers and palisades and have x2.5 damage versus siege weapons.
- Wall of Men civ bonus: Spartan Spear Infantry +10% hit point and attack but also +20% train time. The Spartans can't build stone walls.
- Peloponnesian League team bonus: +10% spear unit hit points (currently not shared)..
- Cleomenian Reforms: Spartan Pikemen are unlocked. +25% farming rate for all workers.
- Tyrtean Paeans tech: +10% spear infantry walk and run speed.
- The Agoge tech: +25% health for spear infantry, but also +10% train time.
- Syssition Limited to one, moved to the village phase
- Spartan Hoplites trained at the Civ Center and Syssition, Spartan Royal Guard Champion Hoplites trained at the Syssition
- Skirites given normal swordsmen attributes and ranks.
- Barracks trains all the non-hoplite units.
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Rural Lifestyle civ bonus: All infantry citizen soldiers farm, hunt and herd 50% faster. Their farming rate is still lower that the one of females, but now farming with celtic men is considerable for extra defense
Really? That means you nearly need no women. Gauls are pretty strong anyway, imho the strongest (besides ptolomies, which are clearly op in early/endgame) ...why need gauls extra defense???
It doesn't mean you need no women. They're still 25% better at farming and cheaper. Celts have weak structures, so a potential choice of better defense sacrificing a little farming efficiency doesn't seem bad to me.
Anyway I'm not currently trying to fix the core game's imbalances, I'm trying to add some extra historical/gameplay flavor and see how it works before focusing on balance.
Btw I've set up the github repo. Is anyone willing to test the first changes with me? You'll need SVN, downloading this (download zip) and unzipping it into binary/data/mods of your SVN installation.
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For celts I suggest Vae Victis: 2x looting for all military units
I'm using only implemented bonuses for now, some might change when the game supports more.
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Loving it so far!
Loving your plans to make carthage a naval power again! ...apart from the Naval UN Power they are now. Euch.
Willing to help with balance testing if possible!
ESPECIALLY With Carthage.
Thanks:) Helping with tests should be easy if you have an SVN installation.
Changes/Implementation of missing things so far:
CARTHAGE
- Exploration civ bonus: It now gives by default +20% line of sight to cavalry, traders and ships making them better at scouting and monitoring trade routes and waters.
- Colonisation civ bonus:. It now gives by default -20% build time to Civic Centers, Houses and Temples, making them better at expanding and working well with their champion units trained at the temple.
- Reduced Temple cost to 300, 400 seemed too high.
- Ship Armor and Construction Speed upgrades now available at both docks, to remove their inexcusable naval handicap.
- Fortified Barracks tech available at the fortress for 1000 stone, increasing Fortress and Barracks hp by 30%. Inspired by their construction of strong fortifications housing barracks, stables and even war elephants.
- Mass Production tech available at the fortress for 500 food, 500 wood, 250 metal, reducing siege weapon construction speed by 25%. Inspired by their tendency to construct large numbers of siege weapons (was actually more common for defensive purposes, could be charged if ballista towers are implemented).
- Naval Trademasters team bonus: Trade Ships move 33% faster (currently not shared).
- Barcid Armies Reform: Mercenaries cost 20% less metal and gain +1 pierce and hack armor levels.
CELTS
- Rural Lifestyle civ bonus: All infantry citizen soldiers farm, hunt and herd 50% faster. Their farming rate is still lower that the one of females, but now farming with celtic men is considerable for extra defense.
- Deas Celtica civ bonus: Druids increase attack damage of soldiers near them by 0.5 (low placeholder until non-stacked auras are available).
- Celtic Valour civ bonus: +10% melee infantry walk and run speed. Inspired by their tendency to charge in melee and their tendency for mass migrations.
- Wooden Construction civ bonus: Structures construct 20% faster but are also 20% weaker.
Gaul only
- Foreign Service team bonus: 10% decreased train time for Champion and Mercenary units (currently not shared). Inspired by their tendency to serve abroad as mercenaries, settler troops or even royal guards.
- Trimarchisia barracks tech: Cavalry units regenerate health rapidly over time when idle. Inspired by a special tactic used by Gallic horsemen involving extra horses and servants allowing them to rest while maintaining constant pressure on the enemy
- Late Reform: +2 hack and +1 pierce armor for melee infantry and cavalry units. Inspired by the increase introduction of chainmail in late Gallic armies.
Briton Only
- Atlantic Trade team bonus: +50% Trade Ship hit points (currently not shared). Inspired by their trade with Carth and Greek merchants reaching western Britain and the need for sturdy ships to do so.
- Sevili Dusios temple tech: +20% melee infantry attack (placeholder for woad caused fear aura).
- Turos Maros tower tech: Increases tower hit points by 50% and adds an extra default arrow.
- Levy Reform: All citizen soldiers train 20% faster. Inspired by the large number of Britons that joined Boudicca against the Romans.
Experimental:
- Low Armor Use civ bonus: Celtic/Iberian Citizen Soldiers cost 20% less wood/metal but also have 10% less hit points and 1 less hack/pierce armor.
- Very Low Armor Use civ bonus: Persian/Mauryan Citizen Soldiers cost 30% less wood/metal but also have 20% less hit points and 1 less hack/pierce armor.
- High Armor Use civ bonus: Greek/Roman Citizen Soldiers cost 20% more wood/metal but also have 10% more hit points and 1 more hack/pierce armor.
- This is a quick workaround with autoresearched techs for checking the effects of differentiating citizen soldiers on economy and combat. Not sure if it will stay.
- At some point I'll go further on that by making archers/slingers cheaper but train longer (cheap equipment, needed expertise) and other similar changes all with autoresearched techs so that they are easily reversible/rebalanced.
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I was thinking about have 2 mode of games: modern and classic this way you can satisfacy different players.
Since it's a mod an I'm working alone that would be too much extra work for few people playing it. It could make some sense for the main game as extra option at some point in the future.
Oh dear. Changes need testing, as you wrote yourself.
Alone those first "small changes in civ-specific bonuses" require lots of changes to all the other civs to re-balance them. Aimed at unique civs, this is really hard to do; how to "test"? You would need many, many games played by comparable strong players, really good players. And all you would get was only a convergence.
The more you make civs unique, the more perfect balancing is impossible. You cannot compare apples to pears (as we say in german). But:
Imho thats no problem at all. The perfectly balanced RTS game is chess, which would not work with different "civs", so if players want to compare their skills, they would play the same civs anyway, balancing done.
What I want to say is:
Forget about balancing different civs right now, concentrate on your gameplay ideas/changes. If all of them are done, you will see what needs nerfing/buffering.
Looking forward to your github repo ..
I'll keep scythe's gameplay for now, to see which of my ideas on techs and civ bonuses might fit in the core game. Radical gameplay changes would be very time consuming now since I'm still learning the files and change the game too much so I'll leave those for later.
The other civs will change as well after the Carthaginians, I've already started work on the Gauls/Brits.
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I like what you aim for, I just don't believe most of your suggestions would help to achieve that. A good game takes in consideration players of all skill levels. A very different economic model from civ to civ, besides frustrating many newbies, will just end with people copying the most successful builds and civ choices. A balanced one helps prevent that, actually adding more variety in the long run. Keep in mind that when water maps are really playable and corrals properly implemented, the early game will get more variety just by that, having two more viable food sources on many maps and one more on all of them. Which will also lead to various side effects.. corrals fitting with cavalry builds, fishing boats allowing civic centers to focus more on military production and goes on.
If you want to discuss anything in detail, I'm currently (and pretty often) on the irc dev chat.
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Making my first changes, thanks to everyone who helped me grab the basics
Started tailoring the current game for more unique factions with small changes in civ-specific bonuses and techs for now. First is Carthage.
So far I have:
- Made Exploration a civ bonus instead of a tech. It now gives by default +20% line of sight to cavalry, traders and ships making them better at scouting and monitoring trade routes and waters.
- Made Colonisation a civ bonus instead of a tech. It now gives by default -20% build time to Civic Centers, Houses and Temples, making them better at expanding and working well with their champion units trained at the temple.
- Reduced Temple cost to 300, 400 seemed too high.
- Ship Armor and Construction Speed upgrades now available at both docks, to remove their inexcusable naval handicap.
- Fortified Barracks tech available at the fortress for 1000 stone, increasing Fortress and Barracks hp by 30%. Inspired by their construction of strong fortifications housing barracks, stables and even war elephants.
- Mass Production tech available at the fortress for 500 food, 500 wood, 250 metal, reducing siege weapon construction speed by 25%. Inspired by their tendency to construct large numbers of siege weapons (was actually more common for defensive purposes, could be charged if ballista towers are implemented).
Exact numbers on techs and bonuses will need testing. More changes to come.
Btw I'm also thinking of removing/heavily altering or replacing with civ-specific tects the Fortress techs reducing siege weapon costs. I don't see them as very useful in their current state due to a low effect for low-massability units and high costs. Thoughts?
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Anyway we work on motivation =) Wowgetoffyourcell phone suggested adding more buildings too i think distinction between dock and shipyard) If they were to be included in the main game or in your mod they could be in the other. Just have to come up with something worth looking at =)
I've just started gathering my concepts, but interest always helps:). I don't think I'd add two different docks for all factions since's there are already many buildings in the game. Unless it somehow turns out to have an amazing impact on gameplay (that I currently can't see), then I might steal the idea:)
Question to all people who have messed with modding the game. How should I start? A clean installation of the game? A mod folder? Some online file hosting?
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First of all food is not only for eating, it is also were leather armor comes from ?
No
and i think u misunderstood the whole point of what i am trying to do
i am trying to make eco at beginning different for civs so that they actually every civ has a different style of playing instead of the monotone 50 food 50 wood
and how would this be more confusing to new players if they do not know what confusing is ?
how is 50 food 50 wood less confusing
and most of my ideas are not hard to impliment
+ the iberians were barbarians they didnt have as solid buildings as you imagine it
I get the point but I wouldn't represent leather as food (nor we need to represent every tiny gear piece on each soldier, just the most obvious ones). It's not coming just from animals anyway. If we wanted too accurate resource costs, then almost all soldiers should cost food+wood+metal+more and we'd need to add many extra resources as well, while 4 is seems like the limit in all successful RTS games and 2 resources types per unit seem to also be the limit while we already have 3 for some units.
Major starting economy differences would make it hard for begginers, not because they already know the game, but because they'd have a hard time changing from civ to civ. They also are REALLY hard to balance in a game with 12 civs. Even in games with few civs major differences come little by little in the tech tree and mostly later on, for a good reason. A rather unified early game is a good way to go. Same with not having players focus on too many different resources early on. Same with units of the same type costing the same resource types for all factions. Differences like civs having a focus on wooden or clay (free) structures is acceptable and realistic, but adding many extras on top of that is not.
Things that would be easy to change without being gamebreaking are unit strengths (with appropriate cost adjustments) but the citizen soldier concept isn't very generous with that. So, we need more well thought ideas on it. Unless we go with things like what you suggested like "faster macedonian skirmishers carrying less resources to balance it out", but this looks like poor design and unrealistic to me. Same with things like Athenian houses costing more in total, two resources instead of one, handicapping the stone they would need for a slinger strategy that is also one of the two "rare" resources (and why they should be different from other greek (etc) houses of the same look and materials?). I'd love to be enlightened on why the stone fortifications of the "barbarian" Iberians would be better represented by wooden palisades than by a stronger Civic Center. And still that wasn't my major point. I could go on and with more detail on many of those suggestions.
Don't get me wrong or get angry like it's something personal, I just disagree with you on many concepts. I still believe a good portion of your suggestions here and in general is interesting and realistic (mostly the environmental/pve things) but still it's majority wouldn't fit well for RTS gameplay, especially the 0 A.D. kind. I've noted the ones I liked here. Another portion of them are not well thought as if you ignore the aim of history meets gameplay in order to just to propose something. Unless you just don't explain some of them enough and I get something wrong. By hard to implement I mean the ones that require extra programming.
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Ancient Empires for WC3 released (first beta)
The map is at a playable state with a working AI on all difficulties, including 5 Civs: Athenians, Carthaginians, Macedonians (with 3 successor sub-factions), Romans and Spartans.
I've decided to push a beta release to be able to focus my modding time on 0 A.D. Made the map a bit smaller and player count got reduced to 4 to prevent some lag/crash issues that no one could solve (delaying the release for months now) and since then it works great so far.
Link (awaiting authorization - should work soon)
To install simply un-zip and put the map file in your WC3 maps folder or any sub-folder of your choice.
If someone wants to play (I'm on EU battlenet) pm and I will If I'm around.
Known issues:
Starting Phase - Post Imperial doesn't work for AI players
Some tooltips need improvement
A few hotkeys might not be working
Some Icons need changes or passive versions -
I'm sure you're aware that's 28-35 medium sized buildings that would need modelling or modification. That's a lot of work.
Yeah, I'm well aware and not really optimistic about it:p. Current plan is to stick with available troop production facilities for now (or in general) and use placeholders for merc camps and academies. The overwhelming part was on gameplay.
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I'd say, without hesitation, that you should keep citizen soldiers (they won't be removed from the main game, hopefully) and see how things turn out. It's not clear to me that there is an incompatibility between citizen-soldiers and differenciation by costs until I actually see it
To better explain this let's assume that civs can only train spearmen in the village phase.
- Persian Spearman gets: 8 sec train time, 50 food/30 wood cost and is weaker.
- Spartan Spearman gets: 12 sec train time, 50 food/50 wood cost and is stronger.
This can work, or can be rebalanced accordingly if it doesn't. But, if they are workers as well, the Persian player can train more during the same time since they are faster trained and cheaper, having a clear economic advantage in return.
- This could be tuned down by making the time/cost differences smaller, something that I don't like as it kills flavor, but could work for the core game.
- It could also be balanced by making the Spartan Spearman a better worker, something that's artificial so I don't like it either.
Looking at the game's reality without the simplified assumption, a lot of such differences between civs and unit classes would make it hard to balance, forcing players to choose certain civs or units to get the maximum potential out of their economy. That's why I'm saying it doesn't really fit with citizen soldiers. I think it's also one of the reasons why Scythetwirler leveled almost all differences between units of the same class for A17 and those were even smaller than the ones I have in mind.
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I test your videos, you have the first guide to new player can be nice show other styles, turtle, boom, Spusher( Second Phase Rush), how create apertures, etc.
I doubt it's the first guide, I think the official game channel has some for quite a while now. Might make more sometime in the future.
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you can find older buildings and redesigning. example old iberian barrack convert to Archery range
This could work if someone helped with modeling edits. Still wondering if 4-5 extra structures per civ could be overwhelming.
Hi Prodigal Son!
About giving ideas and feedback, I think it would be great, during the development of your mod, to find a way to share some changes, in order to include them in the main game. I don't know whether it would be a huge additionnal work for you to generate patches, but it would be too bad if your implementation of distinctions between civs was impossible to add to the main game.
Good luck for this mod!
Hi Itms and thanks:)
I'm very interested with helping differentiate civs in the core game as well. However since I plan to change things such as unit costs, train times, etc between civs and units of the same class as a big part of the differentiation, this might be very imbalancing coupled with the concept of citizen soldiers.
That's why I'm asking on feedback on what to do on this part and other related ones. Keep the citizen soldiers for now and have those changes being minor to see how it turns out, or go full on my plans?
[Civ] Spartans
in Ancient Empires
Posted · Edited by Prodigal Son
History: Sparta was a prominent city-state in ancient Greece, and its dominant military power on land from circa 650 B.C. Spartan culture was obsessed with military training and excellence, with rigorous training for boys beginning at age seven. Thanks to its military might, Sparta led a coalition of Greek forces during the Greco-Persian Wars, and won over Athens in the Peloponnesian Wars, though at great cost.
Gameplay: The Spartans field powerful Spearmen with the unique ability to counter all melee units. As a trade-off their Spearmen take longer to train. Their Villagers and Skirmishers are weaker but also cheaper, contributing to an improved early economy and numerous ranged support for the hard to mass Spearmen. Spartan siege, defenses and cavalry are lacking and their shared technologies are rather limited, but Skirites help with raiding and countering ranged units and their unique technologies can be researched for free at the Gerousia, at slow rates though. While sacrificing some versatility for brute force, their initially predictable and relatively small field armies can prove hard to stop.
Civilization Bonuses:
- Spear infantry x1.5 damage to melee infantry, +30% train time (superior training, sword training, life of soldiery).
- Barracks +10 population (Spartans housed in barracks from a young age).
- Villagers and Skirmishers -20% resource cost and hit points (Helot slaves as workers and skirmishers).
- The Spartans can't build stone walls (had no walls until the very late stages of their independence).
- Maximum population -10% (manpower shortage).
- Team Bonus: Soldiers +5% attack (inspired by fighting alongside Spartan warriors).
Unique Units:
- Royal Guard (Powerful Spearman. x1.5 damage vs melee units).
- Skirites (Agile Swordsman. x1.5 damage vs ranged infantry).
Unique Technologies:
- Linothorax (Royal Guard +10% speed).
- Land Reform (Villagers +25% farming rate).
- Social Reform (Melee infantry and mercenary units -20% train time, Pikeman unlocked).
- Defence Reform (Stone Walls unlocked).
Unique Structures:
- Gerousia (Holds the Spartan unique technologies, which cost no resources but have increased research times).
Units: