Prodigal Son
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Posts posted by Prodigal Son
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Faction Specifics (Trying to make each faction more unique through historical attributes, part1/4)
Athenians
Athens as a faction with naval strength (especially mid-game), good tech/infantry/ranged units and an expand & protect focus.
Reforms:
- Iphicratian Reforms, instead of the (silly imo) "train units from ships" bonus, should give speed bonuses to infantry units. Iphicrates improved Hoplite mobility and focused on skirmishers. Makes sense for a Civ with weak cavalry that focuses on expanding and protecting it's colonies.
Other:
- Colonization (Civ Bonus): Civ Centers Cheaper or build faster
- Athenian Empire (Civ Bonus): Civ Centers, Triremes or both provide a small tickle of metal.
Athens' main strategy was founding colonies/allying coastal towns and protecting/taxing them.
- Philosopher (Champion Healer): New unit that functions as a priest but also has an aura or empowerment skill increasing construction/train time/tech time.
- Chorigoi (Sponsors): Dock tech reducing Trireme cost.
Notice how the above proposals co-relate with the expand & protect focus.
- Champion Hoplite "Logades": Historical elite Athenian unit with the same function instead of City Guards.
I wouldn't like seeing an army of "City Guards" attacking a town.
- Replace Cretan Archers with native/marine Athenian archers or with reasonably downgraded (non-champion) Scythian Archers.
Alternatives:
- If the reforms idea is not implemented an "Iphicratids" tech (the special boots he introduced) could add infantry unit speed.
- If the Philosopher unit is not implemented, a "Philosophy" tech could make techs slightly cheaper or faster to research. Or increase unit line of sight.
Britons:
An offensive civ with weaker but faster to build structures and a relatively good all around army (somewhat lacking cavalry).
Reforms:
- Needs Research
Other:
- Crossbreeding: Kennel tech increasing War Dog attack/Hp
- Woad: Temple tech adding a fear aura to melee infantry (decreasing the attack speed or damage of melee enemies in range).
- Give them back their faster built but weaker structures (even with less differences than before). Could also be slightly cheaper. Forts, Towers and Civ Centers could stay at average stats.
Carthaginians:
Focusing on navy, trade, mercenaries and strong defenses.
Reforms:
- Barcid/Late Armies, increases melee infantry armor and reduces mercenary cost (Through alliances with tribes and city states).
Other:
- Colonization (Civ Bonus): (Like Athens) Cheaper or faster to build Civ Centers or add the existing tech as a default bonus
- Add exploration (unit/ship line of sight) as default Civ Bonus
- Mass Production: Fortress tech increasing siege weapon train speed. They often had huge numbers of them.- Give them back their wall bonuses even if lesser and/or a tech increasing tower, fortress, barracks and wall hp. They had massive walls with built-in barracks, stables and elephant stables.
- If we want Carthage to be the ultimate naval faction, let's not handicap them by having naval architects only at/for the military dock.
- Naval Shipyard could also garrison a number of ships and possibly get an attack.
More coming soon
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Some General Suggestions and Tech Proposals:
- Move all cavalry units (besides the starting scout) to the town phase. That's what all major RTS do for fast units, they have them at tier2+. A village wouldn't have a cavalry force anyway. Fits nicely with my stronger and costlier cavalry proposal as well.
- Make Trade Ships able to garrison 20-30 units. 15 is too little for the ship closer to/ment to function as transport.
- Give every faction reform techs. I can provide detailed information on this for all factions besides Celt and Iberian ones (would need some research). More info at faction specific proposals.
- Add back the rank-up techs, but make them per unit-type and place them in the middle line of structure interface bellow each unit. This way you can make some of your units harder drilled by default and keep others better as workers. Makes sense historically as well, like a choice of core army units and simple levy units. It also gives the equivalent of Age Of Empires, medium/heavy/champion style upgrades. Or:
- Paired techs could work fine per unit, like Ekdromoi (Hoplite speed)/Bronze Cuirass (Hoplite armor). I can come up with such for most units if it's desired,
- Naval Prestige: Tech for Hellenistic factions (Macedon, Seleucid, Egypt) related to constructing big warships faster/cheaper/stronger. Macedon could use a top tier ship. It had a very strong navy including huge ships for a while.
- Expert Sailors: Dock tech for Carthage, Athens and Ptolemies increasing ship speed.
- Fanaticism/Ritual Sacrifice/Afterlife: Temple tech slightly increasing all unit attack speed and/or gather rate (like 5%)
- Coinage: Market tech providing a tickle of metal income per ally (could also be shared between researching player and allies)
- Fire Arrows: Tech making arrow firing units/ships/structures more effective vs ships/siege and wooden or all structures)
- Import Elephants: Market tech unlocking War Elephant Champions for some factions (maybe with a limit). Some factions like Macedon, Persia and Rome, especially the former, occasionally used War Elephants.
- Elephant Bells: Fortress/Elephant Stable tech adding a fear aura to elephants (or increasing an existing one. A fear aura should reduce nearby enemy damage or attack speed.
- Composite Bows: Barracks or Blacksmith tech increasing archer, horse archer (and possibly ship/structure) range for Persians, Seleucids, Mauryans (named longbows here) and maybe Ptolemies. Could also work for roman auxiliary archers if they get implemented.
- God choice: Several linked techs at the temple. Choosing a patron god would provide bonuses linked to the culture their worship would develop and their supposed attributes. Like Poseidon (Ships and Cavalry), Vulcan (Weapons/Armor) upgrades, Demeter (Farming), Melquart (Trade) etc. A number from 3 to anything per temple would work and also be a nice base for a mythology mode.- Map based Auxiliaries/Mercenaries/Satrapal Levies. An option to set "region" per map during creation on the editor. So if the map is set in Gaul, Carthaginians would hire Gallic mercenaries (in a single embassy structure), Rome auxiliaries, Seleucids/Persians train Gallic levies instead of some of their non core units. I guess this one goes a bit too far:p
More Coming Soon
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For the second part I have several suggestions on mostly new things rather than needed fixes and current gameplay.
A balancing template (stolen from here and adjusted accordingly):
This system allows for easy balance changes and understanding of unit stats and attributes. With it each unit has it's stats adjusted according to it's level (L). Exact modifiers per stat can change, those suggested should be close to current gameplay balance. Say units prove too expensive, you can adjust the resource cost modifier to something lower universally. If kill rates make the game too fast, dps can also be reduced universally.
Pop Cost: 1xL
Resource Cost: 100xL
Train Time: 10xL
Hp: 100xL
Dps: 10xL
Armor: 5xL
Movement: Average
Range: Melee
Skills: N/AThen each unit can have some of it's stats modified to give it a more specific role. It's easy to keep track on how much and in what fields a unit is changed. I'm not going to mess with armor and attack types to keep it relatively simple for now. For example:
Spearman (level 1)
Pop Cost: 1
Resource Cost: 100
Train Time: 10 sec
Hp: 120 (100 +20% bonus for spearman class)
Dps: 10 (20 attack with a 2 sec cooldown as spear is a big weapon)
Armor: 7 (5 +40% bonus for spearman class)
Movement: Average
Range: Melee (could be slightly larger, and even more for pikemen. Pikemen could also have lower collision to work better in groups, at least until syntagma formation is properly implemented)
Skills: N/AThen for each faction more specifics could be applied for more historical flavor and varied gameplay:
Sparabara (Persian Spearman) (level 1)
Pop Cost: 1
Resource Cost: 80 (100 -20% as an untrained levy)
Train Time: 8 sec (10 -20% as an untrained levy)
Hp: 120 (100 + 20% bonus)
Dps: 8 (10 -20% as an untrained levy)
Armor: 5 (Removed bonus as it's a light unit compared to most spearmen)
Movement: Average
Range: Melee
Skills: N/ANow, to a Cavalry unit:
Cavalry Spearman (level 2)
Pop Cost: 2 (Cavalry units were more rare, stronger per unit and there's a need to maintain the mount as well)
Resource Cost: 200
Train Time: 20 sec
Hp: 200
Dps: 24 (20 + 20% - until charge is implemented, since it's an offensive unit it needs an attack boost)
Armor: 10
Movement: Fast (As mounted)
Range: Melee
Skills: N/AI have ideas on balancing each unit type this way, but will avoid making this part any longer.
*A note here, I think cavalry also need a transported size of 2 (even more for elephants/large siege). The Persian skill in transporting cavalry which is translated in a (silly imo) bonus of training cavalry from ships could then be shifted to persian cavalry units having a trasported size of 1.
*Units with bigger collision size need slightly better stats since they can be attacked by more enemies at the same time. Also lowering costs and train times like in the Persian Spearman example isn't perfect with the "citizen soldiers as workers" concept since it gives some factions an early game economic bonus, but imo it's a nice flavor and should be balanced on other ways. It partly does with having weaker troops that will die easier by rushes giving stat-boosting ranks to tougher units.More coming soon
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Let's start by saying that I will not go in detail with the well deserved praise to the team and all contributors for the game's development so far, but rather focus on fixes and proposals, instead of mentioning what I like. After testing Alpha 17 a bit ( a few games on both single and multiplayer, as well as a quite deep examination of changes for all units, techs, civs etc), some fixes come to mind first. Mind that I'm not 100% sure on all of them, that would need extensive multiplayer testing which I haven't done.
SOME MINOR STUFF:
- I'm not going to mention unit tooltips needing changes or updating, they were too many to note or notice all of them.
- Athens (at Gymnasion) and (Sparta at Syssition) have a leftover tech pair of "heroism" (which was removed in general) and "will to fight" (which they also have at the fortress alone). Also Gymnasion doesn't make sense as the structure training the "City Guard" and "Scythian Archers" (which actually were a force of Scythian policemen in ancient Athens). A name like Garrison / Phrourarhio would make more sense.
- Spartan Skirites are classified as Champions in the editor. Also several other (not trainable) factional units have wrong classifications.
SOME STRANGE STAT ISSUES:
- Citizen melee infantry have 120/130/140 hp plus the phasing hit point bonus bringing them to about 200-ish hp with all ranks and city phase.
- Champion infantry have merely 130 hp unupgradable.
- Something similar is the case with cavalry/ranged units as well.OTHER:
- Rename "will to fight" to something better reflecting paying troops to inspire them to fight more fiercely. I'd suggest it should cost only food and metal since the other resources don't make sense as soldier rewards, and certainly not around 12000 resources in total, it's extremely expensive even relatively to it's bonus compared to other techs
- "Iron hero armor" seems a bit expensive for affecting only one unit while also increasing it's cost.
- "Nisean Horses" should be more expensive, looking at other techs.
- Siege unit cost reduction techs are expensive for their purpose, considering siege units aren't spammable. Stone cost seems a bit out of place as well.
- "Sturdy Foundations" should either be cheaper or stronger. Or they could affect forts as well. Towers and Forts could get a population cost (of 1/3), simulating default arrow crews and making you choose between extensive defenses and a bigger mobile army.
- "Xyston" was a cavalry lance. The two cavalry attack techs at the blacksmith, or at least the ranged one need new names and the melee one a spear icon.
- Marian Reforms shouldn't be hard to implement. Just a tech that replaces Hastati, Triarii and Extrardinarii with (existing in editor) Marian Legionaries and possibly adds some also existing auxiliaries. More detail later on.
- Mercenary units shouldn't cost wood. Metal makes more sense. If full metal is too much, let's go with food + metal which makes sense and economy between food and wood is easily manageable anyway, so it won't be a real gameplay change.- Same with priests and food. At least give them half metal cost, they shouldn't be a spammable unit.
- If we want Carthage to be the ultimate naval faction, let's not handicap them by having naval architects only at/for the military dock.
- Rams could get a little reduced collision size and more hp to survive and pass through troops easier. I don't like them attack troops. They could even get a major Hp buff and a slight attack reduction.
A BALANCING TEMPLATE
(Stolen from here and adjusted accordingly):
This system allows for easy balance changes and understanding of unit stats and attributes. With it each unit has it's stats adjusted according to it's level (L). Exact modifiers per stat can change, those suggested should be close to current gameplay balance. Say units prove too expensive, you can adjust the resource cost modifier to something lower universally. If kill rates make the game too fast, dps can also be reduced universally.
Pop Cost: 1xL
Resource Cost: 100xL
Train Time: 10xL
Hp: 100xL
Dps: 10xL
Armor: 5xL
Movement: Average
Range: Melee
Skills: N/AThen each unit can have some of it's stats modified to give it a more specific role. It's easy to keep track on how much and in what fields a unit is changed. I'm not going to mess with armor and attack types to keep it relatively simple for now. For example:
Spearman (level 1)
Pop Cost: 1
Resource Cost: 100
Train Time: 10 sec
Hp: 120 (100 +20% bonus for spearman class)
Dps: 10 (20 attack with a 2 sec cooldown as spear is a big weapon)
Armor: 7 (5 +40% bonus for spearman class)
Movement: Average
Range: Melee (could be slightly larger, and even more for pikemen. Pikemen could also have lower collision to work better in groups, at least until syntagma formation is properly implemented)
Skills: N/AThen for each faction more specifics could be applied for more historical flavor and varied gameplay:
Sparabara (Persian Spearman) (level 1)
Pop Cost: 1
Resource Cost: 80 (100 -20% as an untrained levy)
Train Time: 8 sec (10 -20% as an untrained levy)
Hp: 120 (100 + 20% bonus)
Dps: 8 (10 -20% as an untrained levy)
Armor: 5 (Removed bonus as it's a light unit compared to most spearmen)
Movement: Average
Range: Melee
Skills: N/ANow, to a Cavalry unit:
Cavalry Spearman (level 2)
Pop Cost: 2 (Cavalry units were more rare, stronger per unit and there's a need to maintain the mount as well)
Resource Cost: 200
Train Time: 20 sec
Hp: 200
Dps: 24 (20 + 20% - until charge is implemented, since it's an offensive unit it needs an attack boost)
Armor: 10
Movement: Fast (As mounted)
Range: Melee
Skills: N/AI have ideas on balancing each unit type this way, but will avoid making this part any longer.
*A note here, I think cavalry also need a transported size of 2 (even more for elephants/large siege). The Persian skill in transporting cavalry which is translated in a (silly imo) bonus of training cavalry from ships could then be shifted to persian cavalry units having a trasported size of 1.
*Units with bigger collision size need slightly better stats since they can be attacked by more enemies at the same time.*Lowering costs and train times like in the Persian Spearman example isn't perfect with the "citizen soldiers as workers" concept since it gives some factions an early game economic bonus, but imo it's a nice flavor and should be balanced on other ways. It partly does with having weaker troops that will die easier by rushes giving stat-boosting ranks to tougher units.
UNIT CLASS ROLES
To better handle differences of ranged and spear weapons if the current combat system is to be maintained, I'd suggest a spear attack type in addition to the existing ones, possibly renaming pierce to missile.
Infantry Spearman
- High defense/Anti-Cavalry
- Low attack speed (big weapons)
- Higher Attack/Lower Collision for Pikemen (to make them work better in groups until formations are in) but also slightly reduced missile defense (massed sarissas to maked up for smaller shields, but not totally). Maybe reduced speed.
- Persian, Mauryan, Gaul and Briton Citizen versions get reduced melee defense (only large shield, no armor), essentially meatshields, with the two celtic ones possibly having average attack and the other two reduced. Maybe increased speed.
- Triarrii bonused or trained at rank 2 as veterans
- Spartans bonused at dps/defense or having a fear aura
- Machimoi weaker but cheaper and faster to train
- Silver shields bonused at attack/defense
- Immortals lower defense but train faster
- Hoplites slightly higher defense
Infantry Swordsman
- The average unit with no big weakness or bonus. Relatively high attack and defense.
- High attack speed. Could be slightly faster moving than spearmen
- Iberian Citizen version could have reduced (missile) armor having smaller shields.
Infantry Skirmisher
- Best dps and defense, lowest range and attack speed among ranged infantry.
- Fast train time.
- Agrianians,Thracians and Iberians bonus dps or speed.
Infantry Archer
- Average dps and attack speed, good range, weak defense. Could have low collision for increased effectiveness in numbers.
- Reduced wood cost (very cheap armament) but increased train time (hard to master weapon).
- Persians, Syrians and Indians longer range.
- Cretans increased defense.
Infantry Slinger
- Lowest dps and defense, highest range and attack speed among ranged infantry.
- Reduced stone cost (very cheap armament) but increased train time (hard to master weapon).
- Rhodians longer range.
- Balearics increased damage.
Cavalry Spearman
- High dps, Low attack speed (big weapons).
- Good defense and speed.
- Companions/Thessalians bonused at dps/speed.
- Bactrians/Cappadocians bonused at defense
- Cataphracts largely bonused at defense but reduced speed.
Cavalry Swordsman
- Could be removed as somewhat unhistorical and for easier balance (swords could be implemented as a side arm for all cavalry, like units in AOE 3), else:
- Better melee defense (melee instead of chargers/lancers)and lower damage compared to Cav Spears, higher attack speed.
Cavalry Skirmisher
- Best dps and defense, lowest range and attack speed among ranged cavalry.
- Thracians (Odrysians) and Iberians increased dps
- Numidians increased speed
Cavalry Archer
- Average dps and attack speed, good range, weak defense.
- Reduced wood cost (very cheap armament) but increased train time (hard to master weapon).
- Increased range over average archer (all eastern units)
- Do camel ones still need their stench aura? - perhaps camel-traders could also be deployed as cavalry debuffers.
Chariots
- Will need trample to balance and get a proper role, better left as more expensive cavalry archers/skirmishers for now
War Elephants
- Differentiate their stats among civs by armor and elephant species.
- Fear aura still missing?
- Seleucid, Indian armored increased dps, hp and defense, reduced speed
- Indian Archer increased hp
- Ptolemaic, Carthaginian, Possible Extra/Mercenary ones at average
GENERAL SUGGESTIONS AND TECH PROPOSALS:
- Move all cavalry units (besides the starting scout) to the town phase. That's what all major RTS do for fast units, they have them at tier2+. A village wouldn't have a cavalry force anyway. Fits nicely with my stronger and costlier cavalry proposal as well (see balancing template).
- Civ Centers training only a basic melee unit and women. Exceptions to this are factions with weak infantry and developed archery (Persians, Mauryans), and possibly Spartans with an extra helot unit. (see faction specifics). Most RTS have a single tier1 melee unit, with some throwing in an extra ranged one. I suggest something in between, reflecting the development of ancient warfare as well. In most cases, you'll need a tier1 barracks to add early ranged units to your army, but it will be a choice rather than a need. Hoplites and such units dominated early battlefields and factions lacking heavy infantry will have earlier access to ranged through the CC. Btw ranged should get more fragile, cheap and with a slightly weaker attack. This isn't the modern era.
- An alternative way of handling Civ Centers and Military Settlements (Seleucids, Ptolemies), could be making CC normally buildable by all factions while MC get limited to 1 per CC. This way it can simulate that the region had military settlers, else they can just train native levies from the (levy) barracks. Techs, especially for the Seleucids could increase MC number and build/train time.
- Cavalry Swordsmen are conceptually strange. I've yet to come across an ancient cavalry unit with swords as their main weapon. It would be a side-arm to spears, javelins or bows. I guess the class could be removed overall, making balance easier as well, as we have too many troop types.
- Make chariots one-ranked (to avoid spawning new carts and horses out of thin air), non champion units. In the vast majority of documented battles they took place, they were from useless to destructive for their own army. Other units deserve the champion slots more. Briton ones could be excluded, as flavor, since we anyway lack much information on them and no other unit seems more fitting. Those shouldn't be turned into some strange superunit though, more likely some fast, cheap, weak (for a champion) unit.
- Make Trade Ships able to garrison 20-30 units. 15 is too little for the ship closer to/ment to function as transport.
- Give every faction reform techs. I can provide detailed information on this for all factions besides Celt and Iberian ones (would need some research). More info at faction specific proposals.
- Add back the rank-up techs, but make them per unit-type and place them in the middle line of structure interface bellow each unit. This way you can make some of your units harder drilled by default and keep others better as workers. Makes sense historically as well, like a choice of core army units and simple levy units. It also gives the equivalent of Age Of Empires, medium/heavy/champion style upgrades. Or:
- Paired techs could work fine per unit, like Ekdromoi (Hoplite speed)/Bronze Cuirass (Hoplite armor). I can come up with such for most units if it's desired,
- Naval Prestige: Tech for Hellenistic factions (Macedon, Seleucid, Egypt) related to constructing big warships faster/cheaper/stronger. Macedon could use a top tier ship. It had a very strong navy including huge ships for a while.
- Expert Sailors: Dock tech for Carthage, Athens and Ptolemies increasing ship speed.
- Fanaticism/Ritual Sacrifice/Afterlife: Temple tech slightly increasing all unit attack speed and/or gather rate (like 5%)
- Coinage: Market tech providing a tickle of metal income per ally (could also be shared between researching player and allies)
- Fire Arrows: Tech making arrow firing units/ships/structures more effective vs ships/siege and wooden or all structures)
- Import Elephants: Market tech unlocking War Elephant Champions for some factions (maybe with a limit). Some factions like Macedon, Persia and Rome, especially the former, occasionally used War Elephants.
- Elephant Bells: Fortress/Elephant Stable tech adding a fear aura to elephants (or increasing an existing one. A fear aura should reduce nearby enemy damage or attack speed.
- Composite Bows: Barracks or Blacksmith tech increasing archer, horse archer (and possibly ship/structure) range for Persians, Seleucids, Mauryans (named longbows here) and maybe Ptolemies. Could also work for roman auxiliary archers if they get implemented.
- God choice: Several linked techs at the temple. Choosing a patron god would provide bonuses linked to the culture their worship would develop and their supposed attributes. Like Poseidon (Ships and Cavalry), Vulcan (Weapons/Armor) upgrades, Demeter (Farming), Melquart (Trade) etc. A number from 3 to anything per temple would work and also be a nice base for a mythology mode.- Map based Auxiliaries/Mercenaries/Satrapal Levies: Ideally each map would be classified to a regional pool, and each faction would be able to train some civ-specific mercenaries (their most common perhaps) and some from the regional pool. Same with successor levy barracks structures. Mercenaries could train slightly fasted by default to make up for their high metal cost and add realism.
CAMPAIGN:
- Do you remember the old Medieval/Shogun Total War risk-style campaign maps? They were my favorites, as the limited the annoyingly high amount of battles in later TW games and the campaign AI had it easy to handle them, it actually was competitive. They also have increased replayability and easier design over a story-driven campaign. I'm suggesting something like those, instead of/in addition to story-driven. When formations-running-charging-stamina-trample etc are implemented, even battles could work total war style, as of avoiding build & destroy each time you invade a province. Instead, the units you have trained in the turn-based campaign map, will be the ones you'll be able to use in a tactical battle. Overall, with relatively minor extra coding and artistic work, the game could be the most complete experience in the genre, including all of RTS, TBS and RTT.
FACTION SPECIFICS
Trying to make each faction unique through historical attributes. Note that the unit lists I'm mentioning are chosen mostly from a historical perspective, balance and uniqueness for each faction on that field would need lengthy discussions.
ATHENIANS
The Athenians should have bonuses on navy, expansion, infantry mobility, economy and research, with an expand and defend playstyle. Faster built or cheaper Civ Centers will allow quick expansion (simulating colonization or vassalization of other's colonies) with mobile infantry forces and navies to protect them or raid enemy holdings. Later on, Philosopher units can help the colonies flurish enhancing construction, economy and research, to make up for a slightly weak late game military.
CIV CENTER
- Woman
- Athenian Hoplite
- (Athenian Skirmisher)
- (Athenian Cavalry Skirmisher)
BARRACKS (native units)
- Athenian Hoplite
- Athenian Skirmisher
- Athenian Slinger
- Athenian Archer
- Athenian Cavalry Skirmisher
- Athenian Cavalry Spearman
- (Iphicratian Hoplite - after reform)
MERCENARY CAMP/EMBASSY (limited to 1)
- Thracian Skirmisher
- (Iphicratian Hoplite - after reform)
- (Thracian Phomphaiophoros)
- (Thracian Cavalry Skirmisher)
- (Scythian Archer)
- (Cretan Archer)
- (Rhodian Slinger)
GYMNASION (Now this structure makes some sense for proposed champions, if they are rejected please rename it to garrison and add a new icon)
- Logades Hoplites - Elite hoplite force instead of the generic "city guard", same function. I've read they also trained to use bows, but not sure about the source. Going this way could have Logades Hoplites and Archers (picked force of both as champions) without marines full time on land.
- Marine Archers - Makes more sense than the scythians or some unhistorical marine swordsman. Marines could give an extra bonus when garrisoned in ships.
(NEW) ACADEMY STRUCTURE (For Greeks, Succesors, Romans and Maybe Carthaginians - library or some recently unbuildable greek structures as placeholders)
- Holds some (new) techs that don't fit elsewhere
- Philosopher Champion Healer: New unit that functions as a priest but also has an aura or empowerment skill increasing construction/train time/tech time.
REFORMS
- Iphicratian Reform: Increased movement speed for melee and ranged infantry, possibly at a slight armor trade-off if it proves too strong. Could also replace Hoplites with Iphicratian Hoplites looking similar to the current city guard.
TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS
- Colonization/Athenian Empire: Cheaper/faster built CC that provide a small tickle of metal.
- Chorigoi (Sponsors): Dock tech reducing Trireme (metal?) cost.
- Iphicratids: Increases all infantry speed (if reforms aren't implemented) tech and
- Philosophy (or something related): reduced tech research time. Tech or bonus.
- Laurion Mines: Increased metal mining speed with each researched phase. Bonus.
- Shared (Team) bonus: Delian League - faster shipbuilding.
BRITONS
The Britons should be an offensive civ with relatively cheap and weak (in defense) early units and weaker, faster built (wooden) structures. This makes them a viable booming faction as well. More research needed.
CIV CENTER
- Woman
- Celtic Spearman
- (Celtic Skirmisher)
- (CelticCavalry Skirmisher)
BARRACKS (native units)
- Celtic Spearman
- Celtic Skirmisher
- Celtic Cavalry Skirmisher
- Celtic Slinger
- Celtic Cavalry Spearman
- (Celtic Archer)
FORTRESS (Champions)
- Champion Longswordsman
- Champion Chariot
REFORMS
- Needs research
TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS
- Crossbreeding (or other tech): increased wardog attack/hp
- Woad/Body Paint: Temple tech adding a fear aura to melee infantry (slightly decreasing the attack speed or damage of melee enemies in range).
- As with Persians and Mauryans, but to a lesser extend, earlier units are cheaper/weaker, which gives an economic bonus
- Druids bonus/tech: Increased research rate
- Shared (Team) Bonus: Needs research
CARTHAGINIANS
The Carthaginians should have bonuses on naval trade, navy, exploration, expansion, defenses and mercenaries. Locating (with bonused scouting) and securing (with fast built or tough structures) metal deposits, to help them make the most out of their mercenary armies, as well as maintaining naval and trade superiority could be their core direction.
CIV CENTER
- Woman
- Libyan Spearman
- (Libyan Skirmisher)
- (Punic/Libyan Cavalry Spearman)
BARRACKS (Citizen/Subject People Recruits)
- Libyan Spearman
- Libyan Skirmisher
- (Mauritanian/Punic/Libyan Archer)
- Punic/Libyan Cavalry Spearman
MERCENARY CAMP/EMBASSY (Bonused to 2+ for Carthage)
- Numidian Cavalry Skirmisher
- Balearic Slinger
- Iberian Swordsman
- Iberian Skirmisher
- Gallic Swordsman
- Gallic Cavalry Spearman
- Iberian Cavalry Spearman
- Italian Cavalry Spearman
- Italian Swordsman
- (Numidian Skirmisher)
- (Numidian Archer)
- (Ligurian Spearman)
- (Gallic Spearman)
- (Iberian Spearman)
- (Greek Hoplite)
- (Cretan Archer)
FORTRESS (Champions)
- War Elephant
TEMPLE
- Sacred band infantry and Cavalry Champions (plus healers ofc)
REFORMS
- Barcid Armies: Increased armor for melee infantry units (rearmed with looted roman kits) and reduced mercenary costs (better handling of alliances and subjects through diplomacy and use of hostages)
POSSIBLE TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS
- Colonization bonus: Either shared with Athens (cheaper/faster built CC) or faster built houses/CC/Temples.Works better as a bonus.
- Exploration: Increased unit/ship line of sight (maybe for civilian and non-mercenary units only, or just traders and ships). Works better as a bonus.
- Mass Production: Increased siege weapon train speed. Works better as a tech.
- Triple Walls/Fortified Barracks: Increased Wall, barracks, fortress, tower hp. Bonus or tech(s).
- Buff naval shipyard with repair aura, ability to garrison ships and an attack or some of them. Add naval architects to both docks, they were major shipbuilders from early on and not doing so makes their mid game navy weak.
- (Ability to corral horses/elephants/camels for reduced cost on respective units) Works better as a bonus.
- Shared (Team) bonus: Increased naval trade income
GAULS
The Gauls should be an offensive civ with relatively cheap and weak (in defense) early units and weaker, faster built (wooden) structures. This makes them a viable booming faction as well. Later on they get access to tougher units and upgrades.
CIV CENTER
- Woman
- Celtic Spearman
- (Celtic Skirmisher)
- (CelticCavalry Skirmisher)
BARRACKS (native units)
- Celtic Spearman
- Celtic Swordsman
- Celtic Skirmisher
- Celtic Cavalry Skirmisher
- Celtic Slinger
- Celtic Cavalry Spearman
- (Celtic Archer)
FORTRESS (Champions)
- Champion Swordsman
- Champion Cavalry Spearman
REFORMS
- "Increased use of Chainmail": Increases armor (especially hack) for melee infantry and cavalry units.
TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS
- Trimarcisia: Barracks tech increasing cavalry hit point regeneration (or later on stamina regeneration). A special tactic they used involving extra mounts and auxiliary servants for horsemen.
- As with Persians and Mauryans, but to a lesser extend, earlier units are cheaper/weaker, which gives an economic bonus
- Loot bonus: increased resources from destroying buildings, or income from attacking them.
- Mass Migration: increases all foot unit speed
- Druids bonus/tech: Increased research rate
- Shared (Team) Bonus: Foreign Service, decreasing mercenary and champion unit train times. Many Gauls served in foreign armies as mercenaries, settler troops or parts of elite/royal guard units.
IBERIANS
The Iberians are the ultimate turtle civ with several defensive bonuses and also specialize at guerilla warfare. Their units are quite varied but their navy is one of the weakest.
CIV CENTER
- Woman
- Iberian Swordsman
- (Iberian Skirmisher)
- (Iberian Cavalry Skirmisher)
BARRACKS (native units)
- Iberian Swordsman
- Iberian Skirmisher
- Iberian Cavalry Skirmisher
- Iberian Spearman
- Iberian Cavalry Spearman
- Balearic Slinger
FORTRESS (Champions)
- Champion Swordsman
- Champion Cavalry Skirmisher
REFORMS
- Needs research
TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS
- I don't like the default wall bonus. It's imbalanced, looks strange and prevents desired city-building unless you start deleting the walls. An extra Civ Center default arrow and increase in Civ Center hp would work as maintaining their anti-rush attribute, and coupled with their stronger towers and forts make a good defensive civ.
- I thought of a way of implementing their ambush attribute. Iberian units could be detectable at a reduced percentage of enemy unit line of sight instead of the full of it. This could also work for selected units of other civs as well with good ambush abilities.
- When building capturing/loyalty is implemented (although I don't really like the concept having experimented with something similar in WC3) Iberian structures could be harder to capture to simulate their fierce resistance to Roman expansionism.
- (Ability to corral horses for reduced cost on respective units) Works better as a bonus.
- Flaming javelins tech
- Shared (Team) Bonus: Javelin armed non-champion units cheaper.
MACEDONIANS
The Macedonians field powerful cavalry, infantry and siege weapons and reliable missile units. A mostly offensive faction at early-mid game, that gets more staying power later on with reforms increasing the survivability of several units.
CIV CENTER
- Woman
- Macedonian Pikeman
- (Agrianian Skirmisher)
- (Macedonian Cavalry Spearman)
BARRACKS (Native and Closely related Subjects/Allies)
- Macedonian Pikeman
- Agrianian Skirmisher
- Thessalian Cavalry Spearman
- Odryssian Cavalry Skirmisher
- (Sarissophoros Cavalry Spearman)
MERCENARY CAMP(Limited to 1)
- Rhodian Slinger
- Cretan Archer
- Thracian Rhompaiophoros Swordsman
- Thracian Skirmisher
- Galatians Horse/Sword (After Reform)
- Greek Thyreophoroi (After Reform)
FORTRESS (Champions)
- Hetairos (Companion Cavalry)
- Hypaspist/Silvershield
- Hetairos Aspidophoros (After Reform) - Resilient cavalry skirmisher.
- Royal Peltast (After Reform) - Could be anything from pikeman/skirmisher/swordsman.
- Kestros Slinger (After Reform) - High attack slinger, or turned into a slinger tech.
- War Elephant (Possible with Import elephants tech or with full metal cost at the mercenary camp)
REFORMS
- Early Antigonid Reform: Hetairos Aspidophoros replaces Hetairos. Royal Peltast replaces Hypaspist. Adds extra mercenary units.
- Late Antigonid Reform: Increases Pikeman hack armor and train speed. Adds Kestros Slinger Champion unit or tech.
TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS
- Starting having Alexander's army rooster, then envolving into early and late era Antigonid Macedon with reforms.
- Give them Penteres (Heavy Warship). Could be with the early reform if not by default.
- Shared (Team) Bonus: Standardized Currency, Tribute and trade between allies of the metal resource is bonused ~ 15%(their old one, seems very interesting).
- Fetters of Hellas: late game tech increasing fortress hit points. Antigonid Macedonians controlled the most valuable fortified locations in Greece for a long while.
- (Ability to corral horses for reduced cost on respective units) Works better as a bonus.
MAURYANS
The Mauryans could be an aggressive (rush) civ with weak, cheap and fast trained units, relatively weak and fast built (wooden) structures. This can also allow them to play with a booming playstyle, since cheap citizen-soldiers should give an early economic advantage. Their armies are rather weak with the exceptions of archery units and war elephants.
CIV CENTER
- Woman
- Worker Elephant
- Indian Spearman
- Indian Archer
- (Indian Cavalry Skirmisher)
BARRACKS
- Indian Spearman
- Indian Swordsman
- Indian Cavalry Spearman
- Indian Archer
- Indian Cavalry Skirmisher
- Indian Chariot
ELEPHANT STABLES
- Worker Elephant
- Elephant Archer Champion
- Armored Elephant Champion
FORTRESS
- Infantry Swordsman Champion (btw do we need almost identical male and female versions of the same unit? If female warriors were indeed important, perhaps make the archer version trainable instead).
REFORMS
- No clue yet.. did a little read and the only reform I found is related to pacifism.
TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS
- If realism is considered and early Mauryan units are weaker, cheaper and faster to train, this gives them by default a slight economic edge, so they need less bonuses compared to other factions.
- Shared (Team) Bonus: Evangelism, reducing temple tech cost/time sounds good as it is.
- (Ability to corral elephants for reduced cost on respective units) Works better as a bonus.
PERSIANS
The Persians excel at massing weak, cheap infantry units supported by equally cheap but formidable archers. But what really stands out is their cavalry arm, one of the strongest among all civs. Their structures are strong as well, although a little slower to build.
CIV CENTER
- Woman
- Persian Spearman
- Persian Archer
- (Median Cavalry Skirmisher)
*options are endless, so I'll just go with "Persian" for many units
(LEVY) BARRACKS
- Persian Spearman
- Persian Archer
- Persian Skirmisher
- Cardacas Hoplite (After Reform)
STABLES
- Median Cavalry Skirmisher
- Scythed Chariot - as one-rank non-champion
- Scythian Horse Archer (could also be champion, subject to balance)
- Cappadocian Spear Cavalry
- Hycarnian Axe Cavalry
MERCENARY CAMP (Limited to 1 - After Reforms)
- Greek Mercenary Hoplite
- Greek Mercenary
PALACE (Champions)
- Immortal
FORTRESS (Champions)
- Bactrian Cavalry
- Indian War Elephant - (After reform if no "import elephants" tech is used)
REFORMS
- Late Achaemenid Reform: Unlocks Cardakas Hoplite, Mercenary Camp and possibly War Elephants
TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS
- Add Persian architecture as a default bonus, should work better. Weak, faster trained troops, out of strong, slower built structures. As a tech it's a bit discouraging.
- If realism is considered and early Persian units are weaker, cheaper and faster to train, this gives them by default a slight economic edge, so they need less bonuses compared to other factions.
- (Ability to corral horses/camels for reduced cost on respective units) Works better as a bonus.
- Cavalry have a transported size of 1 instead of 2.
- Shared (Team) Bonus: The Royal Road. Increased trader speed.
PTOLEMIES
The Ptolemies should have a well balanced military, with most troop types and better than average mercenaries, but that shouldn't be the core of their strength, somewhat lacking in champion units and military techs. Farming, research, naval and defense bonuses should make them a booming-defensive faction with a variety of secondary options.
CIV CENTER (Core regions such as Alexandria - Only buildable by Heroes?)
- Woman
- Macedonian Settler Pikeman
- (Thracian Settler Skirmisher)
- (Macedonian Settler Cavalry Spearman)
(LEVY) BARRACKS (Subject People Recruits)
- Judean Slinger
- Nabataean Camel Archer
- Machimos Pikeman Champion (After Reform)
MILITARY SETTLEMENT (Military Settler Colonies)
- Macedonian Settler Pikeman
- Thracian Settler Skirmisher
- Galatian Settler Swordsman
- Macedonian Settler Cavalry Spearman
MERCENARY CAMP (Limited to 1)
- Aetolian Cavalry Skirmisher
- Cretan Archer
- (Galatian Sword/Horse)
- (Thracian Skirm/HorseSkirm/Phomphaophoros)
- (Carian Axeman - Sword class)
- (Libyan Skirmisher)
- Hellenic Thyreophoros Spearman or Skirmisher
FORTRESS (Champions)
- Royal Guard (Agema) Cavalry
- War Elephant
- (Royal Foot Guard - hypaspist-like unit, many possible functions)
- (Machimoi Epilektoi - After Reforms)
REFORMS
- Machimoi Reform (Early): Unlocks the slightly weak, but cheap and fast to train Machimos Pikeman Champion.
- Romanization Reform (Late): New Thorakites Sword Champion replaces Macedonian Settler Pikeman and Machimos Thyreophoros (non-Champion) replaces Machimos Pikeman.
TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS
- Farming bonus or tech (The Nile)
- Naval or Naval/Siege/structure tech (Great Engineering and Fleets)
- Recruiting Agents/Officers: Faster trained Mercenaries tech
- Garrison damage bonus or tech. They focused a lot on defensive garrisons.
- (Ability to corral elephants/camels for reduced cost on respective units) Works better as a bonus.
- Shared (Team) bonus: Breadbasket of the Mediterranean a slow trickle of food income.
ROMANS
The Romans might have somewhat weak cavalry, but make up for it with easy to mass tough infantry, strong siege weapons/structures and increasingly good technology as the game advances.
CIV CENTER
- Woman
- Roman Swordsman - (alternative, a hoplite-like rank1 of triarii to simulate early roman army fighting that way)
- (Roman Skirmisher)
- (Roman Cavalry Spearman)
(LEGION) BARRACKS
- Roman Swordsman
- Roman Spearman - (could start at rank2 to simulate he's a veteran)
- Roman Skirmisher
- Roman Cavalry Spearman
AUXILIARY/MERCENARY CAMP (Limited to 1)
- Allied Cavalry Skirmisher
- Extraordinaire Champion
- (Allied legions/Italic units)
The Following are possible post-reform units
- Numidian Cavalry Skirmisher
- Numidian War Elephant
- Gallic/Germanic Horseman
- Balearic Slinger
- Rhodian Slinger
- Cretan Archer
- Syrian Archer
FORTRESS (Champions)
- Consular Bodyguard Champion
REFORMS
- Marian Reforms: Hastati, Triarii, Extraordinarii replaced by (Marian) Legionaries. Some mercenaries/auxiliaries unlocked as well
TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS
- Gladius: Tech increasing infantry swordsman attack speed (and maybe slightly reducing damage, but overall increasing dps)
- Logistics: Barracks or Army camp tech increasing infantry training (and batch training) speed. Their major strength, ability to field and replace big numbers of reliable heavy infantry needs to be represented in game.
- The overall focus on infantry, could kick the extraordinarri champions out of the rooster, or downgrade them, leaving romans with no champions (besides the bodyguard cav) before the reforms. This would be balanced by the massability of reliable citizen infantry.
- Imported Construction Technology: Tech slightly increasing ship/siege/structure hit points and damage. Simulating their common practice of copying whatever worked well from their enemies. Makes me think of the need for an academy type structure for some factions to hold such upgrades
- Shared (Team) Bonus: I'm thinking of a reverse thing here, debuffing all enemies instead of buffing allies. Roman allies were just ment to be absorbed by Rome later on anyway. So something like divide and conquer, what would be a nice in game bonus for it? Not that Socii (or citizenship) in the DD (but yet to be added I guess) are bad bonuses)
SELEUCIDS
The Seleucids probably have access to the largest troop variety of all civs, including several elite units and powerful reforms. Their other aspects could stay at average more or less for balance, even though historically they could have many other bonuses and their weaknesses don't translate well in RTS gameplay.
CIV CENTER (Core regions such as Antioch - Only buildable by Heroes?)
- Woman
- Macedonian Settler Pikeman
- (Neo-Cretan Archer)
- (Thessalian Settler Cavalry Spearman)
(LEVY) BARRACKS (Subject People Recruits)
- Syrian Archer
- Median Cavalry Skirmisher
- Arabian Skirmisher
- Scythed Chariot - as one-rank non-champion
- Dahae Horse Archer
- (Persian Archer, Cyrtian Slinger and goes on and on and on)
MILITARY SETTLEMENT (Military Settler Colonies)
- Macedonian Settler Pikeman
- Thracian Settler Skirmisher
- Neo-Cretan Archer
- Thessalian Settler Cavalry Spearman
- Silver Shield Pikeman Champion
- Thorakites Sword Champion (After Reform)
- Cataphract Champion (After Reform)
- (Thracian Settler Rhomphaophoros)
MERCENARY CAMP (Limited to 1)
- Galatian Swordsman/Horseman
- Cretan Archer
- Tarantine Cavalry Skirmisher
- Judean Thyreophoros Spearman or Slinger
- (Greek Skirmisher)
FORTRESS (Champions)
- Hetairos (Companion Cavalry)
- Armored War Elephant
REFORMS
- Cavalry Reform (Early): Cataphracts Replace Thessalian Horsemen
- Romanization Reform (Late): New Thorakites Sword Champion Available
TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS
- "Plenty of Greek Settlers" Bonus: Increases Military Settlement training and bach training time (or construction speed).
- Shared (Team) Bonus: "Fertile Cresent"/"Silk Road"/"Mesopotamia"/"w/e" small boost to farming and land trade. (The old bonus of Syrian Tetrapolis seems too artificial to me).
- (Ability to corral horses/elephants/camels for reduced cost on respective units) Works better as a bonus.
SPARTANS
The Spartans can be a very unique faction with early available, very limited, super-elite infantry supported by average to poor other units. Late game reforms can provide a reliable, massable unit in Cleomenian Pikemen and improve other troop classes through newly unlocked mercenaries, so that they can stand against other faction's now powerful armies. Helots can be used as a unique worker unit with the best default farming rate (even if slaves are added in general).
CIV CENTER
- Woman
- (Helot - Slave worker with farming bonuses and degenerating hitpoints - going gaia and aggressive at low health)
- (Spartan Hoplite Champion limited to one per farm or house - can't gather/build)
- (Spartan Hoplite - alternative to the above, a bit tougher, more expensive and longer to train than other early units - possibly can't gather/build)
- (Helot Skirmisher)
- (Perioikos Cavalry Skirmisher)
BARRACKS (Subjects such as perioikoi, helots and skiritae - those were a actually tribe, not spartan commandos, probably being confused with crypteia)
- Helot Skirmisher
- Perioikos Hoplite
- Perioikos Cavalry Skirmisher
- Skiritis Ekdromos (fast light spearman)
MERCENARY CAMP/EMBASSY (limited to 1)
- Cretan Archers
- Tarantine Cavarly Skirmisher
- (Elean Cavalry Spearman)
- (Arcadian Hoplite)
- (Hellenic Thyreophoros Spearman or Skirmisher)
- (Rodian or Arcadian Slingers)
SYSSITION (Champion Units)
- Spartan Hoplite Champion
- Cleomenian Pikeman - after reform
- (Spartan Royal Guard or Hippeis Champion - if early champion idea is rejected and normal spartan hoplites are used)
- (Crypteia - swordsman for variety? - Special operations and police force, often used to terrorize-murder helots. Could have a helot suppression aura preventing helot revolts if helot workers are used)
REFORMS
- Cleomenian Reform: Unlocks pikemen citizen-soldiers, provides a farming bonus and possibly unlocks some of the mercenaries.
TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS
- Agoge and Female bonus more or less as they are.
- Tyrtean Paeans: Spartan hoplites move faster. Tech.
- Replace Agis - who seems less interesting with no aura - with Cleomenes III, having an aura buffing pikemen.
- Shared (Team bonus): Peloponessian League - Citizen Infantry Spearmen train faster.
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I finally installed SVN, and it automatically used greek as my local language. So far, at the multiplayer lobby I've noticed a few issues:
At the player list, their conditions (connected/busy etc) the greek equivalent words often overlap each other. Also the time is displayed as Ī©Ī©:Ī»Ī», with Leper saying someone should fix this back to HH:mm so the time can be correctly detected.
Will update this with anything else I come across.
Edit: Most unit, tech, and building translations are incomplete and more often than not partly wrong, as if an auto-translator was used.
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That's beautiful:)
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How about a choir of the lobby moderators singing "New Game Available"?
Seriously awesome idea! It would fix the main issue that made me not wanting to play over the past few months. It could also have a disable button in the lobby for those not liking it.
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What is the problem with the gold mine ?
What's so right about the gold mine? It's so darn boring, and nobody ever makes models or skins to replace the darn thing.
If you give me a reference or something I could maybe work something out for you.
Auron summed up my feelings about it quite well... However, it's not a top priority, since it works and i don't want to distract valuable modelers from 0 AD, have them learn WC3 specifics etc.
Prodigal Son:
If you want players to test it might be a good idea to give a download link.
(You don't seam to want that at the current stage but that would be the simplest way to make PPL test it and get feedback)
I have a link at the last(?) page of the thread I linked above for people wanting to check, since I was mostly away recently, but it has expired by now. I just don't want to spread it everywhere for now. If anyone wants the map I can send it though and feedback is very welcome.
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Hello everyone! First post! (no, posting first posts in the suggestions forum is not ominous)Just tried one game, really liked it but had to clear some doubts:
1.You can't build forward, except with a particular building. Wouldn't it be better to give players the creative freedom to build towers or castles forward? Not insulting it, its good, since it prevents stuff like being walled in, but isn't it good to see some forward bulding push sometimes?
2.Why require you to build 5 buildings from that stage?
3.Why do we have to have treasures on the map? Its like boar placement in AoE2, which is putting in an un-necessary luck factor.
4.And finally, why does building buildings take so much time? What is the principle behind that?
Hey and welcome:)
1) I think it's a design choice. Offensive civ centers near the opponent, followed by other buildings are not uncommon though.
2) Design choice again I think, but it works without problem imo, as requiring less or no buildings works as well. Not sure exactly what's behind it.
3) I've found treasures to be a huge advantage to people knowing the map, I could often gather almost all of them even vs good players. So I'm with you on that one. There's also a little randomness factor but that's not that big of an issue for me since I'm not a very hardcore player.
4) You can always use more workers to speed it up and I think it's pretty fine, but that also depends on the game pace each player likes.
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Yeah, those ones, thanks! I was especially looking for the AOM ones though. If such a thing is to be implemented in 0 AD, I can provide my wip list.
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If anyone is (still) interested in this, here's were most of the updates are posted.
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Do you remember the funny messages the AI sent on various occasions in Age Of Mythology. I'm starting to implement some similar to them in my wc3 mod and thought they might be an interesting and easy to add feature for 0 AD as well. Sorry if it is already be planned, but it hasn't come to my attention.
For those who don't know what I'm talking about, it was messages like "May I offer my surrender?", "I will crush your little city blah blah blah" accordingly on events like game start, heavy loses on either side, when close to defeat etc. It made the AI feel much more alive.
I've found a lists of AOM and AOK taunts, but can't seem to find the ones I was looking for, and I don't have AOM installed. Does anybody know where to spot them?
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Every 5 seconds seems too little, but something similar could be used.
In my wc3 mod I have slaves with degenerating health, and at some low health point they rebel. Then each rebelled slave caused (removed for now) rebellion to other slaves nearby with just one hit. It was funny to see your entire mining or lumbering team go neutral hostile (gaia equivalent) in 2 seconds and attack anything in sight, I might re-add this.
If by any chance it's implemented this way in 0 AD, it combos nice with healers. A preacher healing/oppressing/whatever your slowly dying slaves makes for a more effective gather team than normal workers.
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Kinda hard to balance the game this way. Who would have 30 footmen over 30 elephants? If the design direction goes this way it would be better to relate it with limits per unit type, reflecting historical numbers of units each civ had and the needed balance.
But if the issue is Persians being weak, I'd rather buff them in other ways. They relied mostly on numbers and even immortals weren't that heavy.
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Slaves could be bought at the market instead of being trained and be a percentage of killed ("captured") units from a global pool, or only the enemies killed by each player or team. Or they could just have a fixed limit, increaseable by techs. They would make the rank techs more viable.
Some civs (seleucids only?) have some unrankable citizen soldiers trained only from the CC. This could work for all civs I guess together with your idea for buffing either them or slaves according to each civ. But it could also be an overkill with similar versions of the same units.
Mercenaries indeed could work this way. They could use some more differentiation besides resource costs, and they're soldiers, not workers (with some exceptions like those granted land for service).
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I've lost to a Macedonian player exploiting the syntagma bug, even if I had a better econ and massed counter-units, are you sure your defeat wasn't due to it? (no clue if it's fixed in the branch though, haven't played it).
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Nice iNcog, in fact that's almost exactly how I balance my wc3 mod. I also agree that this discussion gets confusing/pointless since at points we talk for balance hotfixes while at others for a revamped combat system.
Three different resources for a unit might indeed be harsh in practice, so even if it makes sense the cost reduction tech way might be better. It can also simulate the increased cost effectiveness of roman swordsmen and the choice to follow up for other civs which reformed their infantry. Romans could even get a slightly stronger or cheaper version of this tech
The aura for the ram might be better that it attacking human soldiers, if no pushing can be implemented.
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Swordsmen wood cost could easily be justified as part of their shield materials. Cavalry should be given different roles, some being skirmishers/raiders/anti-ranged while others heavy shock cavalry that can cost effectively break most non-spear troops, not all of them being harassers. And besides the realism aspect of it, I agree that very easy to mass preachers isn't a good idea, so half or something of their cost being metal sounds good. Rams ramming units indeed sounds bad, perhaps if a pushing mechanic is easy to implement to have them slowly make their way through enemy units? It could also work for war elephants and to a lesser extend cavalry or even heavy infantry, pushing back the enemy formation.
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Some feedback
- Cavalry have been made weaker to pierce damage, but more resilient against hackAren't spearmen and spear cavalry supposed to counter horsemen? Since they are a problem shouldn't they have less hack to highlight the weakness?- Healers now cost only food since metal is quite rare.I think they should have another resource added to the cost. - Female Citizens train much faster.I think this is the wrong approach. From what I can gather people feel there is not enough to do during the early phases of the game? Most of thats due to batch training being available from the beginning. Although a more difficult way to fix this, I think making batch training a technology available in phase2 would be a better way to solve this.- Swordsmen cost less metal, but cost a little wood.
I dislike that they have three materials needed to make.
I think spearmen do both pierce and hack. Also changing their bonus damage multiplier against cavalry could make it enough anyway, coupled with increasing hack armor would make cavalry stronger against swordmen and other melee troops but still weak against spears (if that's what's intended). I haven't played A16 much because I got annoyed by people using all forms of exploits in it, but before that ranged troops seemed too strong even vs cavalry so I'm not sure about making them weaker vs pierce (could be the lack of the ability to attack moving targets for melee troops though). Besides than I'm in favour of even tougher but costlier cavalry compared to foot units, much like in reality, as it's something that is balancable. Most ancient armies had ratios of 1:10 or even less cavalry to infantry due to cost/lack of horses, more training required etc. So a 50% tougher, 50% costlier cavalryman compared to infantryman isn't that accurate.
Healers could cost half metal/half food. Priests have to cost metal(;p) and wood or stone wouldn't make much sense.
Not sure about the other two.
This guide might be helpful (especially its parts about balancing and unit roles), even if more warcraft/startcraft gameplay styled.
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I remember something like the combat system you describe from a discussion with Mythos and I'm definitely for it. It can be refreshing, accurate and balanced if it turns out good, and besides total war which is partly a different genre I think no game has done this right. However if it takes too much time to come along, a simple balance fix could work for the next alpha or two.
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I'd suggest something slightly different (not something new, just better justification). Keep spearmen and swordsmen different, and just give spearmen to every civ in village phase along with melee cav. Romans actually have a pretty good justification for starting with spearmen. Since the Marian reforms are implemented now and they aren't simply the 2nd Punic War Romans anymore, you can include earlier fighting styles as well. Like Roman "Hoplites" from before the manipular system, or early Principes/Hastati with spears (they switched to swords around the 1st Punic War I think, and even Hasta means spear if I recall right). Or rank 1 Triarii could represent Roman Hoplites since they would mostly be the middle to high class citizens anyway. Or a "pre-rank" of Triarii being the hoplites, then being replaced by Triarii upon reaching town phase.
This system might also need balance by giving all civs only skirmishers (or only archers) and the same with spear/sword cavalry, since those units have different roles and might break balance as well.
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Warcraft 3 has a powerful map editor, and while it's not open source, mods and custom maps (which work as stand-alone mods) are very common and certainly not banned and posted on forums all around the net. 0 AD will eventually get better than wc3, at least for my taste, but since my time and experience aren't endless, I prefer working with something more stable for now.
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If anyone is interested and has a Warcraft III installation, my project is ready for some playtesting.
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Thanks guys for one more great release!
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My Suggestions After Testing Alpha 17 SVN (And In General)
in General Discussion
Posted · Edited by Prodigal Son
Thanks, I plan to do so, pretty soon:)
Agreed, part 2 will have imperial romans anyway, not late republican (such as Marius). I'll bring up more along with the rest of the factions. Imo they shouldn't necessarily swap out a unit, the effect should depend on the civ they are for and close to what happened in history while keeping in mind balance and variety.
It really depends on the map about wood, although a small increase could be nice for light forested maps. Berries do deplete too fast, but I think it's fine as a design choice, I've never had an issue on changing to hunting/farming/fishing towards their depletion.