[Alpha 17 Balancing Branch]

an example?

Cavalry now have reduced pierce armor, spearmen deal pierce damage, so they counter them.

[Alpha 17 Balancing Branch]

A question. Now are some counter how works unit rock scissor and paper now?

Attack and defense types are the counter system now.

[Before Starting To Work On My Mod]

Would be nice add a new phase and new building( library/governament center) like AoK/AoE

Both planned. Imperial Phase and Academy (for greek/hellenistic/roman/carth civs with the library as a placeholder structure). Not sure on what to do with the rest. The techs included there and a structure of this type wouldn't fit with brits/gauls/iberians, so I'm looking for a balanced alternative and ideas on mau/pers as well, were it seems semi-fitting.

Another question is if stables/archery ranges/siege workshops should be added to a majority or all factions. Biggest concern is lack of models and the huge number of structures already in the game.

[Before Starting To Work On My Mod]

I like citizen soldiers you can add male worker a and cut off civ soldiers from CC.

Territories.... Hmmmm difficult may be remove it from your mod and keep different from vanilla game

The plan is to have only one soldier plus the worker for the CC, with the exception of civs with weak spearmen (mau/pers) who will also have archers. That is no-matter if citizen soldiers are removed or not.

Agreed, I'm still like 50-50 on if I should remove them. Maybe what's best is to keep those unchanged at the early stages of the mod, so if something turns out great, it can be transported to the core game without unpredictable side-effects.

[Unique Civilizations - discussion and suggestions]

army mercenary camp is a Gaia building in my concept is not able to build and yes for controlling by players.

This isn't a bad alternative, it's quite a different approach though and not fitting with civ specific discussions.

[0 A.D. on YouTube]

Good tutorial the Mauryan rush, you must try mix with sword cavalry rush and destroy CC easily.

Thanks:). Destroying the CC early on isn't that easy, while spamming archers as the Mauryans and Persians (with their train time techs) makes for a good economy and a numerical advantage. Once the opponent loses the battlefield, their Civic Center won't stand for long anyway.

[Before Starting To Work On My Mod]

Before starting to work on my mod I'd like to get some feedback and discussion on some of it's aspects. The mod would cover the same era as the core game, being by far my favorite in history and at the same time having a solid base to work on. It will probably carry on with the extremely original title of my Warcraft III mod, "Ancient Empires", possibly something like "0 A.D. Ancient Empires". Depending on the final changes decided, my free time and motivation and any possible help I can gather, it might be out soon or take a good while. The goals are:

• Bringing gameplay closer to Age Of Empires II, while keeping several 0 A.D. mechanics and throw in extra ideas of mine, as well as some from the community and other strategy games.
• Creating a game with civ attributes and unit roles heavily inspired from history, even more so than in 0 A.D, without overdoing it with complexity and keeping a steady look on balance.
• Keeping the game slightly macro focused to suit my personal preferences, without totally neglecting micro possibilities.
• Adding a few extra structures, many more techs and altering how recruitment works quite a lot. Overall the tech-tree should be at least 50% different in the end.
• Editing a few core mechanics. Ranged units should be weaker and cheaper, buildings tougher but deal less damage (especially garrisoned ones), melee units slightly tougher, cavalry stronger but more expensive and goes on. Workers/builders might separate from soldiers (with very few exceptions) to allow for bigger price/attribute differences without breaking the economic balance and making raiding more important. Territories might be removed. Mercenaries will be completely reworked into a separate, major part of the tech-tree. Big units will be done justice but cost more pop.
• Population cap might be reduced to 200 to reduce pathfinding lag. If it's done this way, farms might get 1 worker only (with balance changes), to free up more space for military units and keep the combat part of the game almost at the same number of soldiers.
• Quite a bit more, but let's keep it simple for now. You can find many of them here (not all of those fit with the mod's concept though).

Any feedback and ideas are very welcome:)

[Unique Civilizations - discussion and suggestions]

Athenians:

• The athenians in my honest opinion are very interesting but what i would do is make houses cost would cost :120 wood 40 stone

This just makes the early game more confusing for new players for no real gameplay value.

Macedonians:

• Now the Macedonians had skirmishers which were lighter then usual so they would be faster but obviously with a penalty in the amount of resources they could carry with them.
• SO maybe instead of 10 at the beginning they could have a max of 8 or 7.
• Price 65 food and 45 wood

Again confusing and requiring extra balance for no real benefit. If some bonus is intended for Macedonian skirmishers, attack or attack speed would do (simulating their fierce northern tribe recruits) without messing with the economic balance

Spartans:

• Spartan spearmen should be stronger then the usual spearmen in phase 1, he should deal more damage
• The skirmisher in my opinion should have more precision but take more time between shots(in proportions). another
• Elite soldiers and champions would deal double damage or be faster when they are at really low health sort of like a last stand,
• Price of skirmisher: 60 food and 50 wood
• Price of spear: 60 food and 50 wood
• Females have better gathering rate on wood,metal and stone then the other females.

The idea on hoplites isn't bad, it's one of the ways to have them different and historical, it could also mix well with existing suggestions. The rest seem more or less like random things popping out of your head, or hard to implement for no real value (last stand - can just make them stronger).

Romans:

• For the Romans i suggest: first of all they had heavy javelins so i would make them deal more damage be slower.and able to carry more resources on them.
• Price of skirmisher: 10 metal 40 food and 50 wood

That would be the pilum used by swordsmen, not skirmisher javelins. Iberians had heavy javelins as well, before the Romans. I'd make such a thing a tech buffing swordmen's missile damage if pre-charge projectiles are implemented at some point.

Mauryans:

• Troops a bit weaker both in damage and in health
• Train a bit faster
• Price: 40 wood and 60 food.

That should be the case for Persian and Mauryan early units (besides the cost - it should be unit-dependent and the cost differences should be on wood. An average human would eat more or less the same no matter where he's from).

Iberians:

• First of all the starting wall they have is a palisade.
• Less health and less damage but faster and cheaper houses 60 wood
• Gathering rates increase the higher level they are

As I've told you before.. replacing starting walls with palisades solves only half the issue. Weird wall pre-placement and forced town layouts remain and the desired starting stone fort aspect is lost. I'd say make the civ center a fort. One more default arrow and some extra health and here's the forty-anti rush attribute without many issues. Weaker soldiers don't really fit with Iberians imo and the house bonus is a boring one, unless we really lack bonuses for them or it somehow really fits with some other of their aspects.

Your last suggestion on them could prove interesting from a gameplay perspective. Since they are a mostly defensive faction, they are prone to choice by new players and not having to micro veterans in and out of eco would be helpful to them (or to players like myself who almost never bother with that anyway). It could also just not decrease for them instead of increasing.

Ptolomies:

• Make Archers + cost 10 food or train slower

Ptol archers might be a common strategy but it should be removed imo. A mercenary unit, spammable in the village phase and one that wasn't even used by it's faction doesn't seem right. If we want a civ with heavy early metal use for mercs so that this tactic isn't lost, let's have that be Carthage. I'll also repeat that imo mercs should cost metal (their payment) and if full metal is too much, food instead of wood (they'd be fed by army supplies/not wood, and this is not messing with game balance anyway since they both are common resources). They should also train faster than other units overall.

Another thing that could be added in order to increase balance is if some civs already started with some techs upgraded for example a good farmer civ could have the first farmer tech already upgraded.

I'd say a good farmer civ should have a default farming bonus. Let's keep the econ tech-tree clear.

[Unique Civilizations - discussion and suggestions]

In regards to the comments, I am glad to learn you agree on several points, but I would argue a couple points. Helot workers losing hitpoints seems a bit queer. Although they certainly were not treated well, they had certain degrees of autonomy that made them far better off than many slaves. Having slaves depicted in this way is not a bad idea I will admit though. Regarding the idea of the traditionalist reform, I would not venture to call it a reform. Rather, it is more of a reflection of emphasizing on the traditional martial characteristics of Spartans. Following it would represent dependence on allies and perioikoi as the main Spartan soldiers while Spartan hoplites would provide vital auras to them. The idea is not so much a fantasy, but instead rejecting innovation, a thing the Spartans clung to for a good while.

- If it turns out to work the way I suggested for slaves in general (and that if they are added to the core game) I can't see why Helots shouldn't lose hitpoints if other slaves do. Treatment of Helots was varied, depending on the period, different Spartan leaders, need for extra manpower in war etc. I wouldn't say they had it better on average compared to other slaves. The Spartans even had their youths and crypteia murdering and torturing Helots without a reason but to harden the former and oppress/demoralize the second. Differences I'd suggest are helots being bonused at farming, being trained at civ centers for food instead of bought at the market for metal and perhaps some tech(s) having to do with liberation/military enlisting.

- Then, if it's not something related to/alternative to late reforms, it could work historically. However there's already the agoge tech buffing spartan hoplites. On the aura thing, I've suggested something similar.. an aura buffing allies or one debuffing enemies, related to their fame as the best soldiers. Could be a default or tech, or something coming with rank up for citizen hoplites.

[Unique Civilizations - discussion and suggestions]

I do like a lot of ideas regarding Prodigal Son's proposal, but I would like to suggest my own takes on them. I do them in anti-alphabetical order starting with Sparta.

Sparta:

While I like the ideas, the Spartan hoplite should still be limited to the Syssiton, a building available from the beginning. Second, the helot unit should be limited to simply being a regular worker. Having it lose hitpoints seems a bit unnecessary. One possible thing for them could be to have a liberation option, which would convert them into Perioikoi for a cost, similar to the Age of Mythology mechanic of converting gatherers into Ulfsarks. Perioikoi should be average units given their limited liberties. I would limit the Mercenary Camp's uses, yet regarding the reforms I think that seems like a good idea. Perhaps an alternative players could make to the pikeman reform could be technology representing a focus on Spartan traditions, making the powerful Spartan hoplites even more so. Helot skirmishers do not have any historical justification to my knowledge, so maybe in the mid-game peltasts could be a viable mercenary option for the mid game.

- The Spartan Hoplite could be trained in many different ways, your suggestion could work for better or worse compared to mine, depending on how early game balance works in the end.

- I've suggested slaves with degenerating hitpoints as a further differentiation from normal workers, simulating the increased abuse on them, often to the point of death. They could also combo with healers this way to increase their effectiveness/prevent revolts (if those are implemented). Your suggestion wouldn't be bad or unrealistic as a Spartan specific though. However helots did fight as skirmishers/peltasts and in general followed the Spartans into war in numbers often bigger than those of the Spartans.

- I'm strongly in favor of a merc camp for all factions, a buffed one for ptolemies and a super buffed one for carthage, and rebalancing mercenaries in general. Mercenaries weren't trained the same way as local units. Barracks or (especially phase one) Civ Center training them seems wrong. An extra merc camp for each faction also opens up alternative-metal heavy strategies, with many possible related techs as well.

- Perioikoi as the average units for Sparta sounds about right, although I still pref the early hoplites being Spartans (either slightly buffed citizens with a champion version as well, or champions from the start with a limiting factor).

- If reforms for all factions get in, which I'd really love, I'd prefer to implement real ones not fantasy ones. Traditionalist "reform" in place of the Cleomenian one wasn't possible because: "true Spartan" manpower was in the low hundreds and hoplites were severely outclassed by other units for decades (and outclassed for almost 150 years) by then. Gameplay-wise it could work/add variety though.

[0 A.D. on YouTube]

A couple more:

0 A.D. Multiplayer: Prodigalson vs Hanniball

Massive Mauryan archer rush vs Hanniball's Carthaginians, Alpha 17.

0 A.D. Multiplayer: Prodigalson vs phalanx

A rather fast game in which I planned for my usual booming (economy development) before going in for combat, the rush attack I faced though acted like a call for counterattack. Phalanx as Carthage and myself as Seleucids, Unknown Land, Alpha 17.

[Suggestions for 0 A.D.]

As much as I'd love several extra civs for the core game, 12 are already hard enough to balance and some of them still need extra artwork, especially the Seleucids.

[Unique Civilizations - discussion and suggestions]

It's a discussion / suggestion thread about one particular topic: how do civilizations become unique from one another? Indeed, this topic has been brought up in other threads but as you see in Prodigal son's thread, that is a very vast thread which encompasses a lot of aspects of 0 AD. I wanted to have a discussion thread only about how we make civilizations unique from one another; this is already quite a large topic in itself.

I think some civilization bonuses are out of place and need a rework. I named the Iberian and Ptolemaic civilizations but I'm sure there are others as well that could do well with some brainstorming.

Also, would people be against vastly different tech trees? One of the things about 0 AD is that every civilization has the almost exact same tech tree, everything is unlocked through the different phases. There's no such thing as needed to get a blacksmith shop to get a castle or anything. No prerequisites are needed, you just need to age. Would it be bad to modify the tech tree so that it's different? This is a very big change I'm proposing but it's one I think is worth considering to make civilizations quite different from one another. hard to say.

as of right now, it feels like the game plays out the same regardless of which civilization you're playing. that's just a bit off, imo

Agreed that it's worth a separate thread.

I'd be 100% for more varied factions and I'd be full of ideas on it, but since it's a game with 12 of them and not 3-4 as in games with huge differences, I believe that would result in a tough to learn and hard to balance game. Something more than AOK but far less than Warcraft III/Starcraft/AOM should work.

Specific building requirements to advance phases isn't something really needed, even though it could work, as in other games. It's a little limiting in strategies and build orders though.

Here's my thoughts about factions from the other thread:

FACTION SPECIFICS

Trying to make each faction unique through historical attributes. Note that the unit lists I'm mentioning are chosen mostly from a historical perspective, balance and uniqueness for each faction on that field would need lengthy discussions.

ATHENIANS

The Athenians should have bonuses on navy, expansion, infantry mobility, economy and research, with an expand and defend playstyle. Faster built or cheaper Civ Centers will allow quick expansion (simulating colonization or vassalization of other's colonies) with mobile infantry forces and navies to protect them or raid enemy holdings. Later on, Philosopher units can help the colonies flurish enhancing construction, economy and research, to make up for a slightly weak late game military.

CIV CENTER

• Woman
• Athenian Hoplite
• (Athenian Skirmisher)
• (Athenian Cavalry Skirmisher)

BARRACKS (native units)

• Athenian Hoplite
• Athenian Skirmisher
• Athenian Slinger
• Athenian Archer
• Athenian Cavalry Skirmisher
• Athenian Cavalry Spearman
• (Iphicratian Hoplite - after reform)

MERCENARY CAMP/EMBASSY (limited to 1)

• Thracian Skirmisher
• (Iphicratian Hoplite - after reform)
• (Thracian Phomphaiophoros)
• (Thracian Cavalry Skirmisher)
• (Scythian Archer)
• (Cretan Archer)
• (Rhodian Slinger)

GYMNASION (Now this structure makes some sense for proposed champions, if they are rejected please rename it to garrison and add a new icon)

• Logades Hoplites - Elite hoplite force instead of the generic "city guard", same function. I've read they also trained to use bows, but not sure about the source. Going this way could have Logades Hoplites and Archers (picked force of both as champions) without marines full time on land.
• Marine Archers - Makes more sense than the scythians or some unhistorical marine swordsman. Marines could give an extra bonus when garrisoned in ships.

(NEW) ACADEMY STRUCTURE (For Greeks, Succesors, Romans and Maybe Carthaginians - library or some recently unbuildable greek structures as placeholders)

• Holds some (new) techs that don't fit elsewhere
• Philosopher Champion Healer: New unit that functions as a priest but also has an aura or empowerment skill increasing construction/train time/tech time.

REFORMS

• Iphicratian Reform: Increased movement speed for melee and ranged infantry, possibly at a slight armor trade-off if it proves too strong. Could also replace Hoplites with Iphicratian Hoplites looking similar to the current city guard.

TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS

• Colonization/Athenian Empire: Cheaper/faster built CC that provide a small tickle of metal.
• Chorigoi (Sponsors): Dock tech reducing Trireme (metal?) cost.
• Iphicratids: Increases all infantry speed (if reforms aren't implemented) tech and
• Philosophy (or something related): reduced tech research time. Tech or bonus.
• Laurion Mines: Increased metal mining speed with each researched phase. Bonus.
• Shared (Team) bonus: Delian League - faster shipbuilding.

BRITONS

The Britons should be an offensive civ with relatively cheap and weak (in defense) early units and weaker, faster built (wooden) structures. This makes them a viable booming faction as well. More research needed.

CIV CENTER

• Woman
• Celtic Spearman
• (Celtic Skirmisher)
• (CelticCavalry Skirmisher)

BARRACKS (native units)

• Celtic Spearman
• Celtic Skirmisher
• Celtic Cavalry Skirmisher
• Celtic Slinger
• Celtic Cavalry Spearman
• (Celtic Archer)

FORTRESS (Champions)

• Champion Longswordsman
• Champion Chariot

REFORMS

• Needs research

TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS

• Crossbreeding (or other tech): increased wardog attack/hp
• Woad/Body Paint: Temple tech adding a fear aura to melee infantry (slightly decreasing the attack speed or damage of melee enemies in range).
• As with Persians and Mauryans, but to a lesser extend, earlier units are cheaper/weaker, which gives an economic bonus
• Druids bonus/tech: Increased research rate
• Shared (Team) Bonus: Needs research

CARTHAGINIANS

The Carthaginians should have bonuses on naval trade, navy, exploration, expansion, defenses and mercenaries. Locating (with bonused scouting) and securing (with fast built or tough structures) metal deposits, to help them make the most out of their mercenary armies, as well as maintaining naval and trade superiority could be their core direction.

CIV CENTER

• Woman
• Libyan Spearman
• (Libyan Skirmisher)
• (Punic/Libyan Cavalry Spearman)

BARRACKS (Citizen/Subject People Recruits)

• Libyan Spearman
• Libyan Skirmisher
• (Mauritanian/Punic/Libyan Archer)
• Punic/Libyan Cavalry Spearman

MERCENARY CAMP/EMBASSY (Bonused to 2+ for Carthage)

• Numidian Cavalry Skirmisher
• Balearic Slinger
• Iberian Swordsman
• Iberian Skirmisher
• Gallic Swordsman
• Gallic Cavalry Spearman
• Iberian Cavalry Spearman
• Italian Cavalry Spearman
• Italian Swordsman
• (Numidian Skirmisher)
• (Numidian Archer)
• (Ligurian Spearman)
• (Gallic Spearman)
• (Iberian Spearman)
• (Greek Hoplite)
• (Cretan Archer)

FORTRESS (Champions)

• War Elephant

TEMPLE

• Sacred band infantry and Cavalry Champions (plus healers ofc)

REFORMS

• Barcid Armies: Increased armor for melee infantry units (rearmed with looted roman kits) and reduced mercenary costs (better handling of alliances and subjects through diplomacy and use of hostages)

POSSIBLE TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS

• Colonization bonus: Either shared with Athens (cheaper/faster built CC) or faster built houses/CC/Temples.Works better as a bonus.
• Exploration: Increased unit/ship line of sight (maybe for civilian and non-mercenary units only, or just traders and ships). Works better as a bonus.
• Mass Production: Increased siege weapon train speed. Works better as a tech.
• Triple Walls/Fortified Barracks: Increased Wall, barracks, fortress, tower hp. Bonus or tech(s).
• Buff naval shipyard with repair aura, ability to garrison ships and an attack or some of them. Add naval architects to both docks, they were major shipbuilders from early on and not doing so makes their mid game navy weak.
• (Ability to corral horses/elephants/camels for reduced cost on respective units) Works better as a bonus.
• Shared (Team) bonus: Increased naval trade income

GAULS

The Gauls should be an offensive civ with relatively cheap and weak (in defense) early units and weaker, faster built (wooden) structures. This makes them a viable booming faction as well. Later on they get access to tougher units and upgrades.

CIV CENTER

• Woman
• Celtic Spearman
• (Celtic Skirmisher)
• (CelticCavalry Skirmisher)

BARRACKS (native units)

• Celtic Spearman
• Celtic Swordsman
• Celtic Skirmisher
• Celtic Cavalry Skirmisher
• Celtic Slinger
• Celtic Cavalry Spearman
• (Celtic Archer)

FORTRESS (Champions)

• Champion Swordsman
• Champion Cavalry Spearman

REFORMS

• "Increased use of Chainmail": Increases armor (especially hack) for melee infantry and cavalry units.

TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS

• Trimarcisia: Barracks tech increasing cavalry hit point regeneration (or later on stamina regeneration). A special tactic they used involving extra mounts and auxiliary servants for horsemen.
• As with Persians and Mauryans, but to a lesser extend, earlier units are cheaper/weaker, which gives an economic bonus
• Loot bonus: increased resources from destroying buildings, or income from attacking them.
• Mass Migration: increases all foot unit speed
• Druids bonus/tech: Increased research rate
• Shared (Team) Bonus: Foreign Service, decreasing mercenary and champion unit train times. Many Gauls served in foreign armies as mercenaries, settler troops or parts of elite/royal guard units.

IBERIANS

The Iberians are the ultimate turtle civ with several defensive bonuses and also specialize at guerilla warfare. Their units are quite varied but their navy is one of the weakest.

CIV CENTER

• Woman
• Iberian Swordsman
• (Iberian Skirmisher)
• (Iberian Cavalry Skirmisher)

BARRACKS (native units)

• Iberian Swordsman
• Iberian Skirmisher
• Iberian Cavalry Skirmisher
• Iberian Spearman
• Iberian Cavalry Spearman
• Balearic Slinger

FORTRESS (Champions)

• Champion Swordsman
• Champion Cavalry Skirmisher

REFORMS

• Needs research

TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS

• I don't like the default wall bonus. It's imbalanced, looks strange and prevents desired city-building unless you start deleting the walls. An extra Civ Center default arrow and increase in Civ Center hp would work as maintaining their anti-rush attribute, and coupled with their stronger towers and forts make a good defensive civ.
• I thought of a way of implementing their ambush attribute. Iberian units could be detectable at a reduced percentage of enemy unit line of sight instead of the full of it. This could also work for selected units of other civs as well with good ambush abilities.
• When building capturing/loyalty is implemented (although I don't really like the concept having experimented with something similar in WC3) Iberian structures could be harder to capture to simulate their fierce resistance to Roman expansionism.
• (Ability to corral horses for reduced cost on respective units) Works better as a bonus.
• Flaming javelins tech
• Shared (Team) Bonus: Javelin armed non-champion units cheaper.

MACEDONIANS

The Macedonians field powerful cavalry, infantry and siege weapons and reliable missile units. A mostly offensive faction at early-mid game, that gets more staying power later on with reforms increasing the survivability of several units.

CIV CENTER

• Woman
• Macedonian Pikeman
• (Agrianian Skirmisher)
• (Macedonian Cavalry Spearman)

BARRACKS (Native and Closely related Subjects/Allies)

• Macedonian Pikeman
• Agrianian Skirmisher
• Thessalian Cavalry Spearman
• Odryssian Cavalry Skirmisher
• (Sarissophoros Cavalry Spearman)

MERCENARY CAMP(Limited to 1)

• Rhodian Slinger
• Cretan Archer
• Thracian Rhompaiophoros Swordsman
• Thracian Skirmisher
• Galatians Horse/Sword (After Reform)
• Greek Thyreophoroi (After Reform)

FORTRESS (Champions)

• Hetairos (Companion Cavalry)
• Hypaspist/Silvershield
• Hetairos Aspidophoros (After Reform) - Resilient cavalry skirmisher.
• Royal Peltast (After Reform) - Could be anything from pikeman/skirmisher/swordsman.
• Kestros Slinger (After Reform) - High attack slinger, or turned into a slinger tech.
• War Elephant (Possible with Import elephants tech or with full metal cost at the mercenary camp)

REFORMS

• Early Antigonid Reform: Hetairos Aspidophoros replaces Hetairos. Royal Peltast replaces Hypaspist. Adds extra mercenary units.
• Late Antigonid Reform: Increases Pikeman hack armor and train speed. Adds Kestros Slinger Champion unit or tech.

TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS

• Starting having Alexander's army rooster, then envolving into early and late era Antigonid Macedon with reforms.
• Give them Penteres (Heavy Warship). Could be with the early reform if not by default.
• Shared (Team) Bonus: Standardized Currency, Tribute and trade between allies of the metal resource is bonused ~ 15%(their old one, seems very interesting).
• Fetters of Hellas: late game tech increasing fortress hit points. Antigonid Macedonians controlled the most valuable fortified locations in Greece for a long while.
• (Ability to corral horses for reduced cost on respective units) Works better as a bonus.

MAURYANS

The Mauryans could be an aggressive (rush) civ with weak, cheap and fast trained units, relatively weak and fast built (wooden) structures. This can also allow them to play with a booming playstyle, since cheap citizen-soldiers should give an early economic advantage. Their armies are rather weak with the exceptions of archery units and war elephants.

CIV CENTER

• Woman
• Worker Elephant
• Indian Spearman
• Indian Archer
• (Indian Cavalry Skirmisher)

BARRACKS

• Indian Spearman
• Indian Swordsman
• Indian Cavalry Spearman
• Indian Archer
• Indian Cavalry Skirmisher
• Indian Chariot

ELEPHANT STABLES

• Worker Elephant
• Elephant Archer Champion
• Armored Elephant Champion

FORTRESS

• Infantry Swordsman Champion (btw do we need almost identical male and female versions of the same unit? If female warriors were indeed important, perhaps make the archer version trainable instead).

REFORMS

• No clue yet.. did a little read and the only reform I found is related to pacifism.

TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS

• If realism is considered and early Mauryan units are weaker, cheaper and faster to train, this gives them by default a slight economic edge, so they need less bonuses compared to other factions.
• Shared (Team) Bonus: Evangelism, reducing temple tech cost/time sounds good as it is.
• (Ability to corral elephants for reduced cost on respective units) Works better as a bonus.

PERSIANS

The Persians excel at massing weak, cheap infantry units supported by equally cheap but formidable archers. But what really stands out is their cavalry arm, one of the strongest among all civs. Their structures are strong as well, although a little slower to build.

CIV CENTER

• Woman
• Persian Spearman
• Persian Archer
• (Median Cavalry Skirmisher)

*options are endless, so I'll just go with "Persian" for many units

(LEVY) BARRACKS

• Persian Spearman
• Persian Archer
• Persian Skirmisher
• Cardacas Hoplite (After Reform)

STABLES

• Median Cavalry Skirmisher
• Scythed Chariot - as one-rank non-champion
• Scythian Horse Archer (could also be champion, subject to balance)
• Cappadocian Spear Cavalry
• Hycarnian Axe Cavalry

MERCENARY CAMP (Limited to 1 - After Reforms)

• Greek Mercenary Hoplite
• Greek Mercenary

PALACE (Champions)

• Immortal

FORTRESS (Champions)

• Bactrian Cavalry
• Indian War Elephant - (After reform if no "import elephants" tech is used)

REFORMS

• Late Achaemenid Reform: Unlocks Cardakas Hoplite, Mercenary Camp and possibly War Elephants

TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS

• Add Persian architecture as a default bonus, should work better. Weak, faster trained troops, out of strong, slower built structures. As a tech it's a bit discouraging.
• If realism is considered and early Persian units are weaker, cheaper and faster to train, this gives them by default a slight economic edge, so they need less bonuses compared to other factions.
• (Ability to corral horses/camels for reduced cost on respective units) Works better as a bonus.
• Cavalry have a transported size of 1 instead of 2.
• Shared (Team) Bonus: The Royal Road. Increased trader speed.

PTOLEMIES

The Ptolemies should have a well balanced military, with most troop types and better than average mercenaries, but that shouldn't be the core of their strength, somewhat lacking in champion units and military techs. Farming, research, naval and defense bonuses should make them a booming-defensive faction with a variety of secondary options.

CIV CENTER (Core regions such as Alexandria - Only buildable by Heroes?)

• Woman
• Macedonian Settler Pikeman
• (Thracian Settler Skirmisher)
• (Macedonian Settler Cavalry Spearman)

(LEVY) BARRACKS (Subject People Recruits)

• Judean Slinger
• Nabataean Camel Archer
• Machimos Pikeman Champion (After Reform)

MILITARY SETTLEMENT (Military Settler Colonies)

• Macedonian Settler Pikeman
• Thracian Settler Skirmisher
• Galatian Settler Swordsman
• Macedonian Settler Cavalry Spearman

MERCENARY CAMP (Limited to 1)

• Aetolian Cavalry Skirmisher
• Cretan Archer
• (Galatian Sword/Horse)
• (Thracian Skirm/HorseSkirm/Phomphaophoros)
• (Carian Axeman - Sword class)
• (Libyan Skirmisher)
• Hellenic Thyreophoros Spearman or Skirmisher

FORTRESS (Champions)

• Royal Guard (Agema) Cavalry
• War Elephant
• (Royal Foot Guard - hypaspist-like unit, many possible functions)
• (Machimoi Epilektoi - After Reforms)

REFORMS

• Machimoi Reform (Early): Unlocks the slightly weak, but cheap and fast to train Machimos Pikeman Champion.
• Romanization Reform (Late): New Thorakites Sword Champion replaces Macedonian Settler Pikeman and Machimos Thyreophoros (non-Champion) replaces Machimos Pikeman.

TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS

• Farming bonus or tech (The Nile)
• Naval or Naval/Siege/structure tech (Great Engineering and Fleets)
• Recruiting Agents/Officers: Faster trained Mercenaries tech
• Garrison damage bonus or tech. They focused a lot on defensive garrisons.
• (Ability to corral elephants/camels for reduced cost on respective units) Works better as a bonus.
• Shared (Team) bonus: Breadbasket of the Mediterranean a slow trickle of food income.

ROMANS

The Romans might have somewhat weak cavalry, but make up for it with easy to mass tough infantry, strong siege weapons/structures and increasingly good technology as the game advances.

CIV CENTER

• Woman
• Roman Swordsman - (alternative, a hoplite-like rank1 of triarii to simulate early roman army fighting that way)
• (Roman Skirmisher)
• (Roman Cavalry Spearman)

(LEGION) BARRACKS

• Roman Swordsman
• Roman Spearman - (could start at rank2 to simulate he's a veteran)
• Roman Skirmisher
• Roman Cavalry Spearman

AUXILIARY/MERCENARY CAMP (Limited to 1)

• Allied Cavalry Skirmisher
• Extraordinaire Champion
• (Allied legions/Italic units)

The Following are possible post-reform units

• Numidian Cavalry Skirmisher
• Numidian War Elephant
• Gallic/Germanic Horseman
• Balearic Slinger
• Rhodian Slinger
• Cretan Archer
• Syrian Archer

FORTRESS (Champions)

• Consular Bodyguard Champion

REFORMS

• Marian Reforms: Hastati, Triarii, Extraordinarii replaced by (Marian) Legionaries. Some mercenaries/auxiliaries unlocked as well

TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS

• Gladius: Tech increasing infantry swordsman attack speed (and maybe slightly reducing damage, but overall increasing dps)
• Logistics: Barracks or Army camp tech increasing infantry training (and batch training) speed. Their major strength, ability to field and replace big numbers of reliable heavy infantry needs to be represented in game.
• The overall focus on infantry, could kick the extraordinarri champions out of the rooster, or downgrade them, leaving romans with no champions (besides the bodyguard cav) before the reforms. This would be balanced by the massability of reliable citizen infantry.
• Imported Construction Technology: Tech slightly increasing ship/siege/structure hit points and damage. Simulating their common practice of copying whatever worked well from their enemies. Makes me think of the need for an academy type structure for some factions to hold such upgrades
• Shared (Team) Bonus: I'm thinking of a reverse thing here, debuffing all enemies instead of buffing allies. Roman allies were just ment to be absorbed by Rome later on anyway. So something like divide and conquer, what would be a nice in game bonus for it? Not that Socii (or citizenship) in the DD (but yet to be added I guess) are bad bonuses)

SELEUCIDS

The Seleucids probably have access to the largest troop variety of all civs, including several elite units and powerful reforms. Their other aspects could stay at average more or less for balance, even though historically they could have many other bonuses and their weaknesses don't translate well in RTS gameplay.

CIV CENTER (Core regions such as Antioch - Only buildable by Heroes?)

• Woman
• Macedonian Settler Pikeman
• (Neo-Cretan Archer)
• (Thessalian Settler Cavalry Spearman)

(LEVY) BARRACKS (Subject People Recruits)

• Syrian Archer
• Median Cavalry Skirmisher
• Arabian Skirmisher
• Scythed Chariot - as one-rank non-champion
• Dahae Horse Archer
• (Persian Archer, Cyrtian Slinger and goes on and on and on)

MILITARY SETTLEMENT (Military Settler Colonies)

• Macedonian Settler Pikeman
• Thracian Settler Skirmisher
• Neo-Cretan Archer
• Thessalian Settler Cavalry Spearman
• Silver Shield Pikeman Champion
• Thorakites Sword Champion (After Reform)
• Cataphract Champion (After Reform)
• (Thracian Settler Rhomphaophoros)

MERCENARY CAMP (Limited to 1)

• Galatian Swordsman/Horseman
• Cretan Archer
• Tarantine Cavalry Skirmisher
• Judean Thyreophoros Spearman or Slinger
• (Greek Skirmisher)

FORTRESS (Champions)

• Hetairos (Companion Cavalry)
• Armored War Elephant

REFORMS

• Cavalry Reform (Early): Cataphracts Replace Thessalian Horsemen
• Romanization Reform (Late): New Thorakites Sword Champion Available

TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS

• "Plenty of Greek Settlers" Bonus: Increases Military Settlement training and bach training time (or construction speed).
• Shared (Team) Bonus: "Fertile Cresent"/"Silk Road"/"Mesopotamia"/"w/e" small boost to farming and land trade. (The old bonus of Syrian Tetrapolis seems too artificial to me).
• (Ability to corral horses/elephants/camels for reduced cost on respective units) Works better as a bonus.

SPARTANS

The Spartans can be a very unique faction with early available, very limited, super-elite infantry supported by average to poor other units. Late game reforms can provide a reliable, massable unit in Cleomenian Pikemen and improve other troop classes through newly unlocked mercenaries, so that they can stand against other faction's now powerful armies. Helots can be used as a unique worker unit with the best default farming rate (even if slaves are added in general).

CIV CENTER

• Woman
• (Helot - Slave worker with farming bonuses and degenerating hitpoints - going gaia and aggressive at low health)
• (Spartan Hoplite Champion limited to one per farm or house - can't gather/build)
• (Spartan Hoplite - alternative to the above, a bit tougher, more expensive and longer to train than other early units - possibly can't gather/build)
• (Helot Skirmisher)
• (Perioikos Cavalry Skirmisher)

BARRACKS (Subjects such as perioikoi, helots and skiritae - those were a actually tribe, not spartan commandos, probably being confused with crypteia)

• Helot Skirmisher
• Perioikos Hoplite
• Perioikos Cavalry Skirmisher
• Skiritis Ekdromos (fast light spearman)

MERCENARY CAMP/EMBASSY (limited to 1)

• Cretan Archers
• Tarantine Cavarly Skirmisher
• (Elean Cavalry Spearman)
• (Arcadian Hoplite)
• (Hellenic Thyreophoros Spearman or Skirmisher)
• (Rodian or Arcadian Slingers)

SYSSITION (Champion Units)

• Spartan Hoplite Champion
• Cleomenian Pikeman - after reform
• (Spartan Royal Guard or Hippeis Champion - if early champion idea is rejected and normal spartan hoplites are used)
• (Crypteia - swordsman for variety? - Special operations and police force, often used to terrorize-murder helots. Could have a helot suppression aura preventing helot revolts if helot workers are used)

REFORMS

• Cleomenian Reform: Unlocks pikemen citizen-soldiers, provides a farming bonus and possibly unlocks some of the mercenaries.

TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS

• Agoge and Female bonus more or less as they are.
• Tyrtean Paeans: Spartan hoplites move faster. Tech.
• Replace Agis - who seems less interesting with no aura - with Cleomenes III, having an aura buffing pikemen.
• Shared (Team bonus): Peloponessian League - Citizen Infantry Spearmen train faster.

[My Suggestions After Testing Alpha 17 SVN (And In General)]

I doubt an elephant (with a smaller percentage of extra weight as well) walks slower than a human. But let's see their final role and how it works out.

I know damage frenzy is planned but I keep mentioning it since it seems to be one of those things easy to implement, thinking it might just be an oversight that it's not in yet.

[My Suggestions After Testing Alpha 17 SVN (And In General)]

That sounds a bit like Cossacks which was a good game for its time. Cossacks II had one of the best and most realistic combat systems. I wish more developers would use it as inspirations. The old rock-paper-scissor mechanic is so boring and arcadish. Besides, it creates problems like in all unmodded Total War games (balancing issues, spams etc.).

Infantry shouldn't even be able to hurt buildings. Well, they could throw torches, but that shouldn't be as effective as a good catapult. Archers could shoot fire arrows.

I haven't played cossacks (but I've heard/read good comments on them), I've played a little bit of "Alexander", by the same developers though. Combat didn't seem more realistic or complex than total war and at the same time managing formations (especially adding new trained troops to them) + economy was a bit of an issue. I don't really like torches (in AOE III and Rome 2) for some reason they make the game feel stranger than hitting structures with weapons for me. I still can't get why:p.

   

This is especially true when you compare them to rams. Currently rams are very good in melee combat : they can use their high resistance and attack against living units as efficiently as they do against buildings.

It isn't supposed to be like that. Rams are supposed to be very weak against living units but good against buildings and mechanical units, cavalry is supposed to be good against living units and mechanical units but weak against buildings, and elephants are supposed to be somewhere in the middle : very good against living units and mechanical ones, good against buildings (but not as good in this task as the rams), their only weaknesses being their low walking speed and their vulnerability to pierce damage.

If you can't solve the ram situation with normal statistics, I think it would be relevant to make an exception and give them hard maluses/bonuses.

Rams are tanks against spearman

I still believe rams should get unable to attack troops and balanced in other ways (like increased hp or slightly reduced pathing size)

The thing about elephants seems to be a bit more complicated: their vulnerability to pierce damage makes them not really good against garrisoned buildings. This especially affects Mauryans who have no siege engine. In phase3 you as Mauryans have few chances, if at all, against an equal opponent playing a cata civ.

Right. Elephants should be designed to be used *en masse*. It would be relevant to use one or two rams surrounded by soldiers to protect them/open a way for them until they reach the buildings, but such a tactic wouldn't be efficient with elephants. If you're using elephants you should make a lot of them : as they are vulnerable to arrows, one or two wouldn't be enough to take down a castle, and as they are good enough in combat they wouldn't need to be surrounded by bodyguards. Not mentioning the fact that they are cheaper (both in cost and pop, iirc) than rams, so you are encouraged to recruit packs of them.

I'd like elephants to be an expensive all-around superunit. They had uses in siege warfare, such as tearing down gates, but that shouldn't be their focus, nor they should have much lower pierce than hack armor. About them being slow, they should be faster than (most?) infantry. As a weakness they could run amok going gaia + aggressive when reaching some low hp percentage, making them nice targets for focused fire and a potential threat to their owner's lines. Currently they are probably the most underpowered unit considering their high cost, low massability/late availability and relatively weak combat performance.

[Tech/Structure Tree Visualisation]

It's great, getting it in game as well would be even greater. I just noticed some tooltips have full costs and some partial (like only lumber and time for some units that have other costs as well), perhaps a result on reading from main unit files and missing costs that exist only on templates?

[0 A.D. on YouTube]

Two more games:

0 A.D. Multiplayer: Prodigalson vs SwampGremlin

This match starts with some peaceful booming until around 19:45, then the offensive kicks in, resulting in some pretty intense combat around three fronts, with both players focusing on cavalry. SwampGremlin is playing as the Gauls and I'm playing as the Seleucids. There's a little bit of an effort on commentary during the first few minutes before I get absorbed by managing the game.

0 A.D. Multiplayer: Prodigalson & LordigorIIIOfKiev vs theMario & erejum31

A 2v2 with an unexpected twist, having the player considered weaker during team set-up decide the outcome. Myself as the Mauryans, Lordigor as the Iberians, theMario as the Macedonians and erejum31 as the Athenians.

[Defining 0 a.d]

There is no need to pigeonhole 0 A.D. into one category. IMHO

While there's no need to directly copy one of those, the game has to get a fine balance between micro and macro if it is to get successful.

[0 A.D. on YouTube]

One more, 0 A.D. Multiplayer Commentary: yray & Varrus vs Philosopher & Parkour3k

Observing and commenting a game between 4 players I had never played with before. Includes some tips on mistakes that might be useful to some of the participants and new players in general. It's on alpha 17, game map is Watering Holes. Commentary starts at 0:55.

[My Suggestions After Testing Alpha 17 SVN (And In General)]

Currently the biggest issue imo is the combat roles for some units:

• Elephants are too weak for their cost and only semi-useful vs structures (very weak vs troops).
• Melee infantry isn't that useful in it's supposed main role, doing the core combat... as ranged units do that. Which is very unrealistic for the ancient era. Instead, with the reduction on building hack armor, melee infantry now do the same percentage of damage vs buildings with siege weapons on average, and that added to mass-ability and mobility makes them the game's effective siege weapons, with a secondary meat-shield role in ranged unit wars. I'd suggest an increase of around 25% to structure hack armor.
• Ranged units are still a little op, especially ranged cav (not to A16 levels though). Imo they all need to do less dps than melee, be even more weaker in defense (compared to melee), be cheaper and get balanced along those lines. They were almost exclusively support units, but in the current state of the game almost all players focus on them. Furthermore they need far more differentiation from each other, but I've wrote on this before and seems it's a bit early for such changes.

[My Suggestions After Testing Alpha 17 SVN (And In General)]

Yes this is what i meant, but it wasn't obvious for me initially that you suggest a tech to be a prerequisite for cav, not a corral itself. Its cost/research time can make the difference.

Well I wasn't actually suggesting that:p. You got wrong (or I phrased it wrong) that I wrote about doing it with a corral tech, what I ment was that the corral already has a cavalry-related tech. I can see that it could also work with an unlocking tech though.

What I ment was that using the corral as a requirement for cavalry will delay it's training, not encourage it. Especially if coupled with a slight nerf on their food gathering rate, which seems needed. At the same time since the corral produces sheep they can slaughter and has a cav tech, it would fit for a cav-related strategy.

It would make sense as a "stable" providing horses for the majority of civs which don't have one, and since many herding societies were quite strong on cavalry as well, the sheep + cav combo doesn't estrange me.

[0 A.D. Alpha 17 Quercus is now released!]

Congrats team:)

[Mapping Contest 17 announced!]

I might make a Peloponnesian Wars scenario if triggers prove easy to use (haven't checked them yet). Btw your Peloponnesian Wars screenshot isn't accurate, those wars didn't include Rome, it was Athens (and allies) vs Sparta (and allies).

Nice contest overall, hope everyone has fun with it and it adds some nice maps to the game:)

[0 A.D. on YouTube]

One more, 0 A.D. Multiplayer: Prodigal Son vs LordigorIIIofKiev

I didn't plan to upload this, as the game start included some unwanted external voices and it generally didn't turn out that good, but since Lord will upload his, here's my perspective, with a little bit of it cut off. I'll eventually include a link to his video. The commentary is rather lacking, doing it live during a multiplayer game proved rather hard for me, but... trying will help me get used to it.

This video serves to remind me (or anyone else on the same boat) one thing: Never underestimate your opponent. I saw his low rating and win percentage and was playing rather lazily, while random choice gave me Britons which I'm not familiar with. He chose the Persians. Map is Random-Mainland and game version is A17 (SVN). View to see the outcome.

[[Skirmish Map] Jaxartes River]

I was wondering about that but always forgot to ask.