Sebovzeoueb

I seem to remember the Settlers VI had some sort of crazy system for resupplying soldiers (I only played it once), and it made combat pretty much impossible. I think ammo carts and stuff just add too much micro management, so I oppose this notion. Isn't it the case that a "unit" in the game actually represents a group of soldiers, rather than just one? In which case we can assume that a unit comprises some archers and the necessary ammo cart. Not sure about javelinists, but to me there are more important things yet to be implemented in the game (like techs, and proper walls to name but two), and I would rather have these than an ammo/ picking up javelins system that adds extra faffing to the gameplay (and no doubt to the game development).

I think the point of this game mode is that the game never ends, and that you can't win. It's more of a survival mode, in which there is an ongoing rotation of civilisations. It would almost be like FPS games such as CoD and Battlefield in which you join an ongoing game, and then leave it again, but on a longer timescale. It seems to me though that this suggested game mode is a game in itself. It would take a lot of work and balancing to make it work properly, and I wouldn't want it to detract from the development of the more standard game modes. That said, this suggested game mode would be extremely cool if well implemented.

I think that walls should take a really long time to build, that way the problem of wall spamming is somewhat reduced, and it is very unrealistic the way one worker can just stick a wall up in a couple of seconds as if it were an Ikea flatpack or something. Massive stone walls take a long time and a lot of resources, and this doesn't seem to be well reflected in RTS games. Also, when we have territories, you won't be able to build a wall near the enemy, I guess. I think also walls should only be accessible from towers, which in turn should be even more time consuming and costly than the walls. At the moment it is way too quick and easy to build a stone tower. For me, Rise and Fall has the best walls This picture sums up everything a wall should be. Namely massive and with loads of troops fighting on it. It also raises the question: if you don't have troops on walls, what is the function of the siege tower (assuming there might well be one)?

I think it would work best if it were on a very very large map with a lot of players (I believe I have read somewhere that the game engine supports 16). This way new players may be able to build up completely unnoticed. But yes, the problem with this game mode would basically be "spawn camping". I think the best would be to not announce when a player joins the game, so the dominating force is never 100% notified of what may be going on in the fog of war. This game mode idea reminds me of Civilisation (I played Civ II mostly), where you completely destroy and enemy civilisation, and a new one crops up somewhere else on the map. I used to turn this option off, because otherwise I found you could never win by military victory, but in this case this is what we want. As I say, I think if the map is large enough and busy enough, a new player might have a chance to build up without too much hassle. The bigger the better, but I'm not sure how this would work performance-wise. Also, regarding someone giving up their game, maybe they could pass the control on to a friend, or even an unknown new player. Someone trying to join a game could select "take over existing player if possible" or words to that effect. Hardcore players could have an option to have a team of about 4 people to keep their civilisation going 24/7! Maybe cooperative play, as in 2 players controlling one faction, could also come into play here. Especially useful for getting a new base set up. I think this type of game mode would necessarily be a bit of a lottery, sometimes you would get an excellent game, and sometimes you might spawn into an impossible situation, but I get the feeling this happens in many online games, and is not that much of a big deal. It's just a matter of having a good ratio of good games to not so good ones EDIT: In this game mode there is also a strong case for implementing resources which grow back, which has been raised in another post, but so far has had a lukewarm reception. It would be more interesting if resources "grow" rather than being infinite. This way the dominating player can run out of resources.

That sounds amazing. Please make this a game mode!

In Rise and Fall it is really great to have hordes of archers on your walls raining down arrows on the enemy. I really hope this feature does get implemented at some point. What are the points against having units on walls?

I see what you did there

Wow, I have just realised there are actually 3 folders called Library! The two that I mentioned above don't include the user specific one. The user one is in /Users/username/Library/.

OS X seems to keep stuff in /Library/Application Support/ and /System/Library/ it is confusing how there are two folders called Library, both with similar functions.

Seems much like what I have found in music, where the Greeks invented most of the stuff, and the other civilisations (especially the Romans) adopted it. Maybe there could be some unique hero siege super mega units like the Helepolis and the flame thrower, where you only get to build one, but it is epic. And when it has been destroyed, you don't get another one.

Nice. I was wondering though whether we know if these engines and structures were built near the site of siege, or whether they were built at the home city of the attackers, then wheeled all the way to destination. It wouldn't make sense to build them on site if historically that wasn't at all the case, but if that was how it was done, then I think there is a case for including some sort of siege construction element into the game, even if it is just like the trebuchets in AoK.

Cossacks had capturable artillery. I found it to be a bit annoying, but I guess it's because I'm not a particularly skilled RTS player, and I quickly get overwhelmed by lots of stuff going on. It does make total sense though, and does indeed avoid siege spamming. The Spartans should definitely be able to do that though... To make things more complicated, maybe some units could be very loyal, and never convert, and other units easily captured and converted. I think any implementation of capturing units has to be well thought out, otherwise it will just be a pain, but if well implemented could definitely add something. With regards to building siege engines on site vs at the siege workshop, maybe something like Stronghold could be done, where you train siege engineers who then set up a little tent on the battlefield and build siege engines. This way you would still need a siege workshop, and maybe the smaller units could be built at the workshop, while the larger siege engines could be built in situ be specific engineers. Not sure what the history behind this is though. While trying to find out on WIkipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_engine), I came across this sentence in the article on siege engines: I'm definitely up for having flamethrowers!

mrhankey, I am touched that you seem to have registered on the forum just to ask me to carry on with my track. For this reason alone, I will make a third draft over the next few days (I think I have the house to myself on Sunday, always good for a spot of recording). Kenny, I guessed you were throwing your opinion in, but you did it just after saying something like "I'm inclined to agree with Sebastian..." so I thought it looked a bit like you thought that what you were saying was also what I was saying . Haha, it is strange how music causes such strong opinions in us musicians, when it is supposed to be a universal language uniting humanity across cultural and linguistic barriers. I find it is difficult to express these opinions without causing some controversy, especially when adding internet forums to the equation. I think we are managing OK though. Omri, for me the process of the creation of a piece of music is as much about crafting the sound as the notes, so if you were to rerecord the parts, you would actually be significantly altering what I would consider to be my input. Especially if you redo the percussion, as I consider that to be equal to the other parts, and very key to the overall feel and groove of the track. I would much rather have a go myself, and see what I can come up with. Also I am not keen to replace the drone with a pipe drone, as I am attempting to create something reminiscent of the carnyx, I think the current sound can be good, it just needs clearing up somewhat. The way I work is through recording, improvising and programming rather than composing a score and then playing it, the whole thing takes shape as a whole, rather than in separate processes. As an example of what I mean: the delay used in original was a compositional device, not just an effect (Kenny understands). This is why it would seem to me like you would pretty much be redoing the whole thing yourself. As concerns wanting to participate in the game score, I would really like to bring something to 0 A. D., and music and play testing are pretty much the only relevant things I can do to help. I am so pleased to see an open source RTS that looks good, promises good gameplay, and isn't just a clone of some existing game where you still need the original game files to play. It is the first "proper" open source RTS I have found (certainly on Mac anyway), and I like that it promises innovation over imitation, or at least a good blend of the two. So yes, I will make a third draft, and then we'll see.

I'm not taking it personally, and I hope you are not taking my posts personally, I just think that our musical and sonic taste are obviously too different for me to able to be part of your vision for the score, without my input being quite severely compromised. I can see why you seek coherence in your score, but if you do so overly, I feel that you most likely will end up working on your own (unless someone with very similar ideas turns up). I purposefully went for a contemporary/ancient blend in my piece, and I would rather keep it that way than loose the feel I was attempting to create. I really think that the more this track gets modified towards your style of composing and recording, the more what I have done will be out of context and not fitting anyway. Also, seeing that I am not overly keen on the game score in its current state, I would rather not modify my music too much to fit in with it. But as I say, you are welcome to the harpsichord pattern or any of the other instruments, if you should want to do something with them. I guess that making music for 0 A. D. is just not really what I am cut out for, as I am more keen on making crazy electronic beats and playing viking metal anyway! I just thought I would have a go, seeing as the opportunity was there. EDIT: Also, if you need any instrument recordings of the instruments mentioned in my reply to the main music contributions thread, then my offer still stands.

Yes, sorry, I did end up getting side tracked into my feelings about the score as a whole, should have made a new thread really. But now you have my feedback anyway. I can see that you really want to do all the music yourself, exactly as you want it, so I will let you do that. I can send you the harpsichord pattern if you want, as that is almost the only bit you are not proposing to redo yourself. Otherwise I guess I will just leave you to it!

I think this is more an issue with the current unit AI in general, as I find this annoying when your own units do this too. You send an army in to the enemy base, and while sending a second one, your first one has been wiped out by one or two infantrymen, because your units were attacking a building.

Although not quite as impressive as your spec, my MacBook Pro has pretty good specs, and also doesn't run the game particularly well. I think at this stage it is normal.

I'm glad someone understand what I was going for! I still think this idea could work, but with a longer delay. This is also why I used a particularly heavily delayed and reverbed whistle sound in my first draft. I wasn't particularly going for a tin whistle sound, but more of an epic flute type instrument of some description, echoing through the Celtic valleys. Thanks for you positive words regarding my piece, although I think you have ended up slightly distorting my original point about the musical concept for the game in general, but hey, a bit of distortion never did anyone any harm. In that case, we will just have to agree to disagree. Iberian Peace is the first one of your tracks I listened to, as I didn't realise there was a bandcamp page with the 2 other tracks for a while. I think this is the least successful track, for me there is just something not quite "right" about it, especially in the orchestral parts (sorry, but it sounds a bit cliché to me), and in terms of musical references, it makes me think of the Spanish, but in no way makes me think of the ancient Iberians, if I exaggerate, it is like if you used Italian Baroque music for the Romans. Also the track for the Hellenes for me has nothing Hellenistic about it after the first few seconds, and the music reminds me of the game Cultures (the first one), by Funatics, which is about Vikings, in fact, the orchestral parts of the other two also remind me of that score a bit. I think it is a shame that you haven't incorporated some more ancient and mysterious sounds into the mix (of all of the tracks). Your Celtic track is my favourite, I think it has the most fluid integration of orchestra vs "chamber" (as you like to call it), and really has a Celtic vibe. We must have different recording preferences though, as I find there is too much air, or rather that the air is too boxy, on the recorded instruments. It seems to me like we are hearing different things with regards to my tin whistle recording. When I did the recording I thought that the playing was verging more on the side of sloppy, than just loose, but then I quite liked the effect of it. I don't understand how you are hearing such a MIDI like tight sound. My room I record in adds quite a lot of air and natural reverb to the sound, it is quite clear sounding, but there nevertheless. With regards to dynamics, if I compress it even less, then the quieter bits totally disappear in the mix. Do you think my drone sounds stringy? I think it is more brassy myself, I wanted something vaguely reminiscent of the Carnyx, and other ancient celtic brass instruments. I don't have a pipe drone, I'm afraid. I don't have much in the way of sampled instruments, apart from various percussion hits. I think I agree with you on this one. I was trying to bring a tribal feel to my track, but I didn't quite choose the right sounds for Celtic-Tribal. Well, I guess a third draft may be coming online this weekend some time. Yes, these samples sound good. I think if this guy made a 0 A. D. track you would be hard pressed to recognize it as MIDI.

Also added the Persian Chartar, one of the few instruments I have found that may actually have existed in some form in ancient Persia. It seems that many of the modern day Iranian classical instruments, and quite possibly the style of music, are derived from ancient Persian music, but very few actual facts are present. Here is some Persian classical music for your enjoyment. While impossible to know how close this sounds to the music of ancient Persia, it certainly sounds pretty plausible to me. I like that the ney player is using epic delay, classical musicians of Western European tradition would never allow this!

Added links and pics for the Tuba and Cornu, with a bit more information.

Nice. When you say "loud", do you mean purely in terms of volume? If so, that shouldn't be a problem, as adjusting the overall volume of a piece is a easily done, and I would guess that a general volume balancing would occur once the whole game score has been finalised.

Yes, communication on the internet can be difficult, especially when attempting constructive criticism. You manage well, which I guess makes you a good Lead for the project!

Nice.

Thanks for your feedback Erik, Indeed, I think the percussion might still need some work. It was meant to work with the delay, but then I took the delay off, and it doesn't really have it's place in the same way. I like the way you are relating the music to the gaming experience. This is a very important factor. I'm am deliberately keeping the beginning sparse, to allow for some of the game sounds to come through (although being on OS X, I don't know what these are like yet). I totally see what you mean about it being a bit art installation-like though. Probably due to the fact I went to a contemporary arts college where installations were the "in" thing. Maybe I can make the beginning more sparse, and less "arty" at the same time, as a bit of silence shouldn't be too much of a problem in game music, in fact I think it could be a bonus. Brown noise . Also aptly known in musical terms as a drone. It is a fairly common musical device, especially in folk music. I'm not sure what the best way to provide variation would be, but I guess something involving volume and timbre, and maybe just not having it throughout the entire piece. All in all, pretty constructive feedback I would say, and in no way do I take offence. I find often feedback from people not involved in music is the most useful, as it is usually more down to earth and comes from the heart rather than the mind. And after all, in cases such as this, the listener is more important than the musician. It's all very well having something "musically good", but if people find it "disturbing/annoying", then it is not suitable.