Resources

[fatherbushido]

Following another topic about the abstraction of resources.

37 minutes ago, fatherbushido said:

I like the way it is formulated. Thanks.

17 minutes ago, Nescio said:

You're welcome. Off-topic, I also think all military units ought to cost metal, and that structures shouldn't cost food (D2686).

1 hour ago, Nescio said:

Slingers shouldn't cost stone

Basically:

- food: something to produce human units, some related technologies, some related structures.

- wood: a basic resource to produce basic weapons/tools, basic structure, basic technologies.

- stone: a resource to produce advanced structures, advanced technologies.

- metal: a resource to produce advanced weapons/tools, advanced technologies.

I am not sure that all military units should cost metal in fact. That seems less evident than some other points.

For structures costing food, I could imagine some specific cases, but indeed some seems removable.

I wrote that before looking at some design docs. Let's paste an old public version from the wiki:

Quote

 

Purpose: Food is a primary requirement to train units, and is also necessary for most tech research and advancement.

Purpose: Wood is used to construct wooden structures, siege engines and ships, and outfit units with wooden weapons and equipment.

Purpose: Stone is used to construct stone structures (particularly base defenses), and outfit units with stone weapons and equipment.

Purpose: Ore (an unrefined combination of precious minerals and metals) is used to outfit units with metal weapons and equipment. Similar to gold in other games, it is also used to purchase services and commodities, and fund expensive research projects.

 

 

[Nescio]

8 hours ago, fatherbushido said:

Following another topic about the abstraction of resources.

Basically:

The approach outlined in the design document and implemented in 0 A.D. is largely descriptive.

E.g. spearmen cost wood, because their spears and shields are made of wood; however, part of their equipment was also made of iron (e.g. spear point, side-arm) and bronze (e.g. spear counterweight point, helmet, greaves; shield rim, boss, spine, decorations); and how about things that can't be easily grouped under one of the four resource types, e.g. a linen cuirass?

Moreover:

• food is a bit different (farms), but all other resources are gathered basically in the same way
• all resources can be obtained equally from traders
• units can cost food, wood, stone, metal
• structures can cost food, wood, stone, metal
• technologies can cost food, wood, stone, metal

So, in practice, there is not much fundamental difference between different resource types in 0 A.D.

 

A different approach is prescriptive: define which function each resource type has, then stick with it (or redesign it, of course). This is the approach I'm taking in my 0abc mod.

Spoiler

Purpose:

• silver:
  • technologies cost only silver, no other resources; except for phase advances, which are autoresearched for free upon meeting the requirements;
  • espionage;
  • recruiting mercenaries;
• food:
  • unit costs;
  • unit upkeep (negative resource trickle);
• wood:
  • structure, ship, and siege engine costs;
  • structure upkeep;
• stone:
  • cost of some major structures (e.g. city walls, fortresses, wonders);
  • consumed whenever stone-thrower artillery fires;
• iron:
  • soldier, ship, and siege engine costs;
  • consumed whenever bolt-shooter artillery fires;

Gathering:

• silver:
  • can not directly be gathered;
  • some structures generate silver (e.g. centre), others consume it (e.g. fortress);
  • traders generate 100% silver, no other resources are possible;
• food:
  • no animal-training corrals;
  • can be stored at centres, docks, and farmsteads;
• wood and stone:
  • as in 0 A.D.;
  • can be stored at centres, docks, and storehouses;
• iron:
  • can only be stored at the forge, not at centres, docks, or storehouses, to reflect the fact that one has to melt ore to obtain metal (and to differentiate iron from stone).

Both are valid approaches, one is not necessarily inferior to the other.

To be fair, I'm not even sure the current implementation in 0abc is an improvement; I've overhauled the resource system more than once, and I might do it again in the future. Besides, that something works in a mod doesn't mean it's a good idea for the 0 A.D. default too.

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

I think that a problem that is summarised to an extent by Nescio is the issue with arguing that just because wood is used, spearmen should require wood.  Probably a better approach to take would be to have most basic units cost some ratio of food and wood with the amount being arbitrary to an extent.  Cavalry, being more expensive to field, would cost not only more food, but also an amount of metal, and any unit that begins with an amount of experience would similarly cost metal.  Champions would cost even more metal while mercenary type units could cost only metal.  

Stone should probably only be reserved for siege weapons and buildings made available in the Town Phase.

Metal would be an additional cost when building structures available in the City Phase.  

I think that what could be explored in much more depth, however, would be the time investment.  For most technologies, I think that it would be interesting to not necessarily care as much about the amount of resources spent on a technology compared to how long it would take to research.  The same could be considered with units, in which the training time, something I covered a good while ago, is ridiculously short compared to even fast paced RTS games like Starcraft.  

[fatherbushido]

24 minutes ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

the issue with arguing that just because wood is used, spearmen should require wood.

 

26 minutes ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

Probably a better approach to take would be to have most basic units cost some ratio of food and wood with the amount being arbitrary to an extent.

Yes that's exactly what I tried to sum up.

RES1: related to human units

RES2: related to basic units, basic structures, non human units

RES3: related to advanced structure

RES4: related to advanced units