Faction: The Chinese

[Ayakashi]

True, but I don't see why we can't be 'selective' about it. I think Including the 5 Dynasties and 10 Kingdoms as well as Tang will make the faction overall more interesting. As it would mean access to units that would have no place if saved for part 2. I thought part 1 is 500-1000 AD now?

[niektb]

[...] I thought part 1 is 500-1000 AD now?

Yup, though the exact years are like wolflance said, 476 AD - 962 AD. (Fall of the Western Roman Empire till founding of the Holy Roman Empire)

[wolflance]

I see. Now I think being 'selective' is the only way to make a China faction properly.

Eyecandy (Note: His equipment is historical)

Edited November 6, 2014 by wolflance

[Ayakashi]

Proposal revised. And sorry for the Bump!

[wolflance]

@Ayakashi

I read your proposal. Mind if I give some opinion?

1) Heroes - Some participant of the Battle of Talas ought to be included. Like Li Siye.

2.1) Infantry - Tang Dynasty is probably the only Chinese Dynasty where bow is more prominent than crossbow. Having two unit of crossbow unit is over-representing it...

That is probably because Tang Infantry are really geared for getting into face-smashing range. Tang archers and crossbowmen are trained, expected, and regularly ordered to charge into melee combat after one or two volleys.

2.2) I think by medieval period, dedicated swordsman unit no longer plays any central role on the battlefield (unlike antiquity). So Chinese faction can make do without one - unless, that put the whole faction at a big disadvantage.

3) Cavalry - Need a heavy cavalry unit.

4) Champion Unit

Tang had so many Imperial Guard unit so either one is fine.

Note that MoDao is primary used by

1) (ordinary) archers and crossbowmen

2) Barrier troops/Blocking units - Used for execution of deserters, etc, that sort of thing. Maybe give it a buff aura or something.

3) Specialist troop.

5) Siege Unit

Flamethrower is mostly a Song Dynasty thing, AFAIK.

Tang Arcuballista has only one or two bows (兩弓弩).

Never heard of the 四腳弩, although traction trebuchet are indeed already in common use.

Uncertain about the 連弩

6) Naval Unit

I know about the Naval Flamethrower (and the ‘decorate with silver‘ part), not sure about the name though. Dragon ship seems to be a AOE invention.

Edited February 28, 2015 by wolflance

[Stan`]

I need more building artwork Easier to do than units

[wolflance]

I need more building artwork Easier to do than units

There is a Chinese-made Tang Dynasty AOEII mod somewhere. I can post some picture if I have the time, for reference only, of course.

Edited February 28, 2015 by wolflance

[Stan`]

Please do With historical comments if you can

Edited February 28, 2015 by stanislas69

[Ayakashi]

@Ayakashi

I read your proposal. Mind if I give some opinion?

1) Heroes - Some participant of the Battle of Talas ought to be included. Like Li Siye.

2.1) Infantry - Tang Dynasty is probably the only Chinese Dynasty where bow is more prominent than crossbow. Having two unit of crossbow unit is over-representing it...

That is probably because Tang Infantry are really geared for getting into face-smashing range. Tang archers and crossbowmen are trained, expected, and regularly ordered to charge into melee combat after one or two volleys.

2.2) I think by medieval period, dedicated swordsman unit no longer plays any central role on the battlefield (unlike antiquity). So Chinese faction can make do without one - unless, that put the whole faction at a big disadvantage.

3) Cavalry - Need a heavy cavalry unit.

4) Champion Unit

Tang had so many Imperial Guard unit so either one is fine.

Note that MoDao is primary used by

1) (ordinary) archers and crossbowmen

2) Barrier troops/Blocking units - Used for execution of deserters, etc, that sort of thing. Maybe give it a buff aura or something.

3) Specialist troop.

5) Siege Unit

Flamethrower is mostly a Song Dynasty thing, AFAIK.

Tang Arcuballista has only one or two bows (兩弓弩).

Never heard of the 四腳弩, although traction trebuchet are indeed already in common use.

Uncertain about the 連弩

6) Naval Unit

I know about the Naval Flamethrower (and the ‘decorate with silver‘ part), not sure about the name though. Dragon ship seems to be a AOE invention.

2.1) I see your point. I got more archers than crossbowmen already if you include mounted ones. Maybe we can do without the repeating crossbowmen but personally I'd have an early game ranged fodder unit. Maybe just normal composite bow archers?

2.2) I don't think I have one. You got Fubing shock troops in which some uses swords and some don't. All other units that uses swords are archers that use them as a secondary melee attack. Unless the Modao Counts? The Tang dynasty dao needs representation IMO, its a beautiful weapon and is what katanas were originally based on.

3) The Long Wu Cavalry are heavy.

4) My idea is to have it like some equivalent of the Zhanmadao, like a heavy, primarily anti cavalry unit. Do you think it should be a Fubing archer unit instead? Maybe even an upgrade to the crossbow unit? That buff aura idea sounds pretty cool though.

5) Both the land and naval variations of the flamethrower works the same way. If the technology existed back then I don't think we should assume it was only ever used in one naval engagement.

On the triple bow crossbow, according to this page:

http://www.grandhistorian.com/chinesesiegewarfare/index-english12122007.html

"Again, no one is certain of the exact date for this step-up in crossbow technology but the upgrade from the single bow to that of the double or triple bow occurred roughly at the same time and the earliest references pointed to a 5th century A.D. start although they only came into extensive use in the 8th to 11th centuries A.D., during the later part of the Tang dynasty, through to the chaotic period of minor dynasties of post-Tang and into the Song dynasty."

If still unsure, we can just have double bow instead?

This same website also has info on the Sijiao Pao and Liang Nu:

http://www.grandhistorian.com/chinesesiegewarfare/index-english12122007.html

6) It's not an AOE invention. All articles regarding the battle of Langshan Jiang mentions I came across mentions the dragon ship. One theory is that these were repurposed dragon boats normally used during the dragon boat festival. I would have them to be somewhat like this:

Edited March 1, 2015 by Ayakashi

[Ayakashi]

I need more building artwork Easier to do than units

I intend to redesign the Civic Centre to give it a more "Tang" feel. Please hold on till then

[wolflance]

*snip*

2.1) Normal bowman would be good. Do note that Tang infantry archer use longbow (self bow).

3) I mean a non-champion cavalry...

4) Yes, MoDao is used pretty much like a ZhanmaJian, there are even some text that directly equate MoDao to ancient horse chopper.

I suggest both , Ranged infantry upgrade and (Champion) MoDao troop.

5) Personally I won't 'assume' anything when dealing with historical subject, unless there is at least some evidence to support it. The Byzantines which had Greek fire did not employ it on land warfare either (AFAIK), except as siege defense or in the form of handheld flamethrower.

After cross-checked with your link, I found the reference on that Sijiao trebuchet., it is from Tai Bai Yin Jing. The generic term seems to be ‘Pao Che (砲車)', SiJiao Pao seems to be one of the variant while Whirlwind trebuchet is another variant.

Tang Dynasty did use multi-shot siege crossbow, but it was called Che Nu (車弩) if Tai Bai Yin Jing is to be believed. Shoot seven bolts, one large bolt with six smaller bolts.

I agree that no one can be certain about the exact date on the use multi-bow arcuballista, that's why I only go for specific mention in the context of Tang Dynasty. So far I could only find one mention of two-bows arcuballista, so I suggest use two-bow version just to be on the safe side.

The image link is broken though...

6) Wikipedia source on Langshan Jiang quoted Needham, but I need to take a closer look at the primary sources. This battle is virtually unheard of by the Chinese themselves (except serious historians and those who played AoEII: Forgotten), so it might be quite hard.

Note:

《资治通鉴》 did not mention dragon ship.

《吴越备史》 mention the weapon, but not the ship.

Edited March 1, 2015 by wolflance

[Stan`]

I intend to redesign the Civic Centre to give it a more "Tang" feel. Please hold on till then

Be warned I may disappear

[Ayakashi]

...

3) Personally, from a gameplay perspective, I don't see the point. Both are gonna occupy the same role so in a way one cancels out the other.

5) Well, I can't find any direct mention of flamethrowers used outside of naval engagements either. While I think they most likely had them, I agree, best save them for part 2 for now.

Sijiao trebuchets are larger and stronger then whrilwind catapults but can't be moved around after deploying. 四腳 (Sijiao) means, for footed, because it is mounted on a fixed four legged frame.

Agree that it'd be probably safer to just have double bows instead.

6) This is the passage from Needham's book, Science and Civilisation in China Volume 5, that mentions the Dragon Ships:

"The Wu Yileh Pei Shih7 (Materials for the History of the Wu-Yiieh State in the Five Dynasties Period), written by Lin Yii8 only a few decades later, gives us an extremely interesting passage. The Wen-Mu King (Wen-Mu Wang9) was in command at an important naval battle when with more than five hundred dragon-like battleships he attacked the men of Huai" at a place called Lang-shan ChianglO (Wolf Mountain River). This was Chhien Yuan-Kuanll, the' seventh son and later (+932) the successor of the Wu-Su king (Wu-Su WangI2), Chhien ChhiuY They won a great victory over the other side's forces 'because fire oil (huo yul4) was used to burn them up'. Then the author's commentary goes on:

What is 'fire oil? It comes from Arabia (Ta-Shih Kuo') in the southern seas. It is spouted forth from iron tubes. and when meeting with water or wet things it gives forth flame and smoke even more abundantly. \Vu-Su Wang used to decorate the mouths of the tubes with silver, so that if (the tank and tube) fell into the hands of the enemy, they would scrape olr the silver and reject the rest of the apparatus. So the fire oil itself would not get into their hands (and could be recovered later)"

Pages 81 and 82

Note that it quotes from the second book you listed as well.

Edited March 1, 2015 by Ayakashi

[wolflance]

...

1) Other suggested Hero:

Li Jing

Xu Ren Gui

2) Another reason I don't want to many crossbow unit is that current animation set really does not look very good...

3) Non-champion unit usually become available earlier, but I agree with you on this one.

EDIT

A Light Cavalry > Heavy Cavalry > (Champion) Cataphract progression would be nice though.

5) Flamethrower were used in battle of Langshan Jiang, so it is appropriate for naval weapon in Part I at least. The fact that the Chinese used 'Iron Tube' to contain the fire oil and use silver to decorate said tube shows that it is not a weapon designed to be thrown from a trebuchet.

6) O-wait, I found the quote!

“命王率水師大小戰艦五百余艘，皆刻龍形，自東洲發艦，遙趨淮甸。夏四月乙巳，大戰淮人於狼山江。”

I really should read my source more carefully . Dragon ship are in!

The dragon ship are described as carrying loads of lime (Calcium hydroxide) dust, sand and bean, on top of its flamethrower.

The lime dust was spread at range under favourable wind to blind enemy sailors.

When the warship engage with boarding combat, sand is used on the ship to prevent slipping while beans was thrown onto enemy ship, causing enemy combatants to fall down. Flamethrower was used at this range as well.

Seems to me like a (quite) large warship.

Edited March 2, 2015 by wolflance

[wolflance]

A quick search on the net resulted in some basic information of Tang architecture - Green roof, white wall, red column, and the design of door and windows.

The rectangular arrangements above the door seems to have some importance - Usually called Qi Zhu Ba Bai (七朱八白), or seven red and eight white, the 'white' here being the white rectangular shape.

One of the few surviving Tang period building, the Tian Tai An....a Buddhist temple.

The Chi Lin Nunnery at Hong Kong is one of the best modern construction that adhere strictly to Tang Style.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chi_Lin_Nunnery

Candidate for Tang flag

Edited March 2, 2015 by wolflance

[Ayakashi]

Hey Wolflance! May I ask on what's your opinion on what a Tang Fubing unit should look like? More specifically how much armour did they wear?

I'm doing some unit concepts arts right now, and coming up with a look for the champion units was easy enough. But the 'least' armoured looking depictions of Tang infantry I could find looks basically the same as in your 3rd picture (The one from the tomb paintings). Should they look like that? Or should they start with little/no armour (Like that archer in one of your pictures) and gain this armour after upgrade.

Oh and I updated the proposals based on some of your suggestions.

Edited March 15, 2015 by Ayakashi

[wolflance]

Either way would be fine, because we really don't know what they look like. Given that armors and crossbows are state-provided but bows and arrows are not, I suggest Fubing melee infantry and crossbowmen start with armor, bu bowmen did not.

However, as Tang Dynasty archers/crossbowmen are trained to engage in melee as well, even archers should be given more armor as they get promoted.

Medium (armored) cavalry and infantry and archer...they...don't look very different, actually.

As a side note, the MoDao (plus heavy quarterstaff, actually) upgrade should be applicable to both bowmen and crossbowmen. Bows were more prominent than crossbows during the Tang, so Chinese bowmen of this period should naturally be better than crossbowmen (or they fill different niches).

Champion Unit:

(i) I see your Champion unit proposal mentioned that Wu Zhetien is required to unlock certain unit - I sugest another Champion MoDao "barrier troop" unlocked by Li Siye.

(ii) Weren't Beiwei and LongWu one and the same, LongWu being the renamed BeiWei unit during XuanZhong reign?

Edited March 16, 2015 by wolflance

[Ayakashi]

Thanks for the input on the armour dude!

As for upgrading archers. I'm aware that this was the case historically, but this is the thing. We have 2 archers, and I don't want their roles to overlap too much. So I gave archers the Modao to make them the more likely to be the favored offensive unit, despite crossbows having longer range, now that melee attacks has given them better survivability in the open. This leaves the crossbowmen as a more specialist ranged unit better suited for base defense/mounting walls and towers. Or I can give them a weaker melee weapon like the quaterstaff or maybe a dao?

And yes, Thousand Riders and Long Wu were the same: they were called Thousand Riders during Wu Zetian's reign, and later Long Wu during Xuanzong's reign, so I made them one unit now accordingly. Added a Modao infantry unlockable by Getting Li Siye and Wu Zetain no longer unlocks a special champion unit, but grants you a small trickle of resources.

Edited March 16, 2015 by Ayakashi

[Ayakashi]

Excuse the double post!

Updated the proposal yet again!

@Wolflance

As you have pointed out I was still playing around with historical accuracy a little too much. So based on you suggestion both archers now get melee. I also realized that I got some of the champion units mixed up and now I give up on heroes granting you special units because it was getting confusing. And finally: added an upgrade that turns all your citizen soldiers into 'semi-champion' units to reflect the collapse of the Fu Bing during mid Tang. On another note: what is this 'barrier troop' you speak of? Do you have a Chinese name for it? I can't find any info on that. And do you know what 神威軍 (Shen Wei Army) does and what weapon they use? I can't find sufficient info.

Edited March 17, 2015 by Ayakashi

[wolflance]

Excuse the double post!

Updated the proposal yet again!

@Wolflance

As you have pointed out I was still playing around with historical accuracy a little too much. So based on you suggestion both archers now get melee. I also realized that I got some of the champion units mixed up and now I give up on heroes granting you special units because it was getting confusing. And finally: added an upgrade that turns all your citizen soldiers into 'semi-champion' units to reflect the collapse of the Fu Bing during mid Tang. On another note: what is this 'barrier troop' you speak of? Do you have a Chinese name for it? I can't find any info on that. And do you know what 神威軍 (Shen Wei Army) does and what weapon they use? I can't find sufficient info.

Info on barrier troops http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrier_troops

There are no specific unit name for the Tang barrier troops, only records like "队副一人撰兵后立，执陌刀，观兵士不入者便斩" , which describe the usage of MoDao for such function. Modern generic name for barrier troop is 督战队, however this is obviously not suitable for Tang Dynasty unit.

I need to look into the imperial guard of the Tang Dynasty (since there are so many of them) for more information.

[wolflance]

On 神威军:

Previous designation of this unit is 射生军 , so I bet they were archers. Dunno if mounted or not though.

[Ayakashi]

Hmm.. If they were mounted archers then there's going to be some role overlap because the Long Wu were mounted archers as well. Maybe just stick to 3 champions? There are loads units now as it is lol!

[wolflance]

Some (new) comments:

Unit name:

Some terms, like Zhanfengdui (戰鋒隊), refer to a ground/team of people, and thus not suitable as a name for a single soldier.

The term Qi Bing (奇兵) means ambushers/flank attackers, not indicative of the unit equipment.

Siege weapon Chuangzinu (床子弩) is a Song-period name.

Fei Huo (飛火) is a catapult-launched weapon. Then again we don't have formal name for Tang period grenade.

Unit Roster:

Native / Fubing cavalry is lacking.

(more to come when my connection is good)

Edited May 14, 2015 by wolflance

[Ayakashi]

Thanks for the feedback! I'm going to make a few small changes again soon after I get the first batch of concept art ready.

As for the lack of native/fubing/citizen cavalry: reason I propose only one right now is coz I think there should be a strong incentive to train auxiliary units, and coz the role overlap with said auxiliary unit I feel are too strong. Also according to Li Jing's Manual Qi Bing's were used to chase down routing enemies (I didn't read it myself but used the abridged translation/summary from this guy called Yun in this link: http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/topic/774-tang-military-system/), which is partly why I used that name for a light cavalry unit. I did some guessing for many units because the sources were never very specific regarding equipment. If you find it inappropriate I'll change it.

BTW, Concept art is coming very soon:

[wolflance]

Thanks for the feedback! I'm going to make a few small changes again soon after I get the first batch of concept art ready.

As for the lack of native/fubing/citizen cavalry: reason I propose only one right now is coz I think there should be a strong incentive to train auxiliary units, and coz the role overlap with said auxiliary unit I feel are too strong. Also according to Li Jing's Manual Qi Bing's were used to chase down routing enemies (I didn't read it myself but used the abridged translation/summary from this guy called Yun in this link: http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/topic/774-tang-military-system/), which is partly why I used that name for a light cavalry unit. I did some guessing for many units because the sources were never very specific regarding equipment. If you find it inappropriate I'll change it.

BTW, Concept art is coming very soon:

concept art wip.jpg

The Qi Bing were mentioned separately with Ma Jun (cavalry), so they were probably infantry. The 'Reserve' and 'Dragoon' translation in the CHF is inaccurate, as there are no basis to assume that Qibing fought as mounted infantry (they might, but there is no concrete evidence to prove either way)

《通典》also mentioned that Qi Bing are organized ad hoc / on the fly, about three out of ten of an entire army will be organized as Qi Bing. Most appropriate modern equivalent for Qi Bing could be 'Task force'.

For the cavalry and auxiliary, I got the feeling that Tang faction lacks a melee horse unit...did the Tang ever employ camel cavalry? The auxiliary system could be expanded to include more than just Gorturk and Koreans, to better represent the cosmopolitan nature of the Tang Dynasty.

On concept art:

Note the quiver should be on the right side - a right hander draw with his right hand, and hold the bow with his left.